Is there a Biblical mandate on what the role of government should be?

FireDragon76 · Thursday at 8:06 AM

Fervent said:
Maybe not as a model, but to develop some governing principles. Unless you are suggesting we abstain from engaging in politics entirely, we cannot separate our voting conscience from our faith. This isn't about establishing a kingdom on Earth, but about conforming our political ideas to what God values in government.

There's no hot take answer to what "God values in government" in that manner. Anybody that tells you otherwise is attempting to manipulate you, and can be immediately discounted for that reason alone.

Pepperdoodle · Thursday at 10:08 AM

Fervent said:
One of the central disagreements in politics today seems to boil down to what we think the proper function of government is. Is it to preserve individual liberties? Or is it to ensure that every citizen has their basic needs met? Some other central function? My question is, what light does the Bible shed on this question? If we look at the structure of Israel in the OT, what can we learn about how God intends for governments to function and what their mandate is?

I have my thoughts, but I want to hear some other opinions before divulging them.

According to the Bible, the role of government is to serve as an instrument of God to maintain order and promote justice.
All governmental authority is established by God, and those in power are considered His servants, acting as agents of justice and retribution for wrongdoers.
The primary function of government is to restrain evil and punish those who do wrong, thereby creating a peaceful environment where individuals can live quietly and godly lives.
This is supported by Romans 13:4, which describes government as "the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer".
In addition to punishing evil, government has a positive role in promoting good and encouraging righteous behavior. It is to praise those who do good and uphold the rule of law, ensuring that justice is administered fairly and that the rights of the vulnerable, such as the poor and oppressed, are protected.
The Bible emphasizes that justice involves giving each person what is due, which includes both the punishment of evil and the recognition of good conduct.
This responsibility is grounded in the dignity of every human being, created in the image of God.
Government is also tasked with protecting the common good, preserving human dignity, and safeguarding citizens from external threats and internal chaos.
It is to pass and uphold just laws that promote peace and prosperity, as seen in the call to "work for the peace and prosperity of the city" (Jeremiah 29:7).
However, the role of government is limited; it is not to perform the work of the church or to create rights, goods, or services, but to maintain order so that people can pursue good works for the sake of the Gospel.
Ultimately, while governments are divinely ordained, they are fallible and must be held accountable, as God alone is sovereign over all nations and rulers.

The way government is now, too big imho, isn't the way God intended, thus in part why many countries are having so many government issues.

Fervent · Thursday at 4:46 PM

FireDragon76 said:
There's no hot take answer to what "God values in government" in that manner. Anybody that tells you otherwise is attempting to manipulate you, and can be immediately discounted for that reason alone.

What are you basing this assertion on?

Fantine · Thursday at 4:48 PM

Fervent said:
Maybe not as a model, but to develop some governing principles. Unless you are suggesting we abstain from engaging in politics entirely, we cannot separate our voting conscience from our faith. This isn't about establishing a kingdom on Earth, but about conforming our political ideas to what God values in government.

A good reason why "faith" should honor Jesus' two great commandments.
God created those immigrant prisoners in Sudanese gulags. Any faith that condones that has a warped view of God.

Fervent · Thursday at 4:49 PM

Pepperdoodle said:
According to the Bible, the role of government is to serve as an instrument of God to maintain order and promote justice.
All governmental authority is established by God, and those in power are considered His servants, acting as agents of justice and retribution for wrongdoers.
The primary function of government is to restrain evil and punish those who do wrong, thereby creating a peaceful environment where individuals can live quietly and godly lives.
This is supported by Romans 13:4, which describes government as "the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer".
In addition to punishing evil, government has a positive role in promoting good and encouraging righteous behavior. It is to praise those who do good and uphold the rule of law, ensuring that justice is administered fairly and that the rights of the vulnerable, such as the poor and oppressed, are protected.
The Bible emphasizes that justice involves giving each person what is due, which includes both the punishment of evil and the recognition of good conduct.
This responsibility is grounded in the dignity of every human being, created in the image of God.
Government is also tasked with protecting the common good, preserving human dignity, and safeguarding citizens from external threats and internal chaos.
It is to pass and uphold just laws that promote peace and prosperity, as seen in the call to "work for the peace and prosperity of the city" (Jeremiah 29:7).
However, the role of government is limited; it is not to perform the work of the church or to create rights, goods, or services, but to maintain order so that people can pursue good works for the sake of the Gospel.
Ultimately, while governments are divinely ordained, they are fallible and must be held accountable, as God alone is sovereign over all nations and rulers.

The way government is now, too big imho, isn't the way God intended, thus in part why many countries are having so many government issues.

thank you for actually providing contribution to the thread, and not knee-jerking about Christian nationalism. Your first statement is a good summary, but I'm not sure it tells us much considering what "justice" means is a pretty broad question. Retributive justice? Restorative justice? Social justice? Economic justice?

Pepperdoodle · Thursday at 5:46 PM

Fervent said:
thank you for actually providing contribution to the thread, and not knee-jerking about Christian nationalism. Your first statement is a good summary, but I'm not sure it tells us much considering what "justice" means is a pretty broad question. Retributive justice? Restorative justice? Social justice? Economic justice?

The government is to promote justice, acting as agents of justice and retribution for wrongdoing.
The government is to restrain evil and punish those criminals.
The government is to uphold the laws and hold those who break them accountable.
The government is to giving each criminal the right punishment for their crimes.

Sadly as we have seen in society, especially the last 15+ yrs it's mainly the Left who are soft on criminals.
Giving slaps on the wrist doesn't help the criminal or society.
Yes, there can be restorative measures, but they should be along with time served whether in jail, prison, but also maybe community service, repayment if money is involved, etc.

Evil, sin and wrongdoing have always been, but they need to be dealt with properly and sadly some governments aren't doing what they should be doing in that area for whatever nefarious reasons they have in not properly dealing with criminals.

Do you think governments handle criminals properly?

Fervent · Thursday at 5:50 PM

Pepperdoodle said:
Do you think governments handle criminals properly?

I think there's more to dealing with issues of crime than punishing criminals.

So do you think the sole function of government in maintaining justice is exacting punishment on criminals, or does justice require equity and impartiality in other areas as well?

RDKirk · Thursday at 5:52 PM

Fervent said:
thank you for actually providing contribution to the thread, and not knee-jerking about Christian nationalism. Your first statement is a good summary, but I'm not sure it tells us much considering what "justice" means is a pretty broad question. Retributive justice? Restorative justice? Social justice? Economic justice?

Remember that Nero was in power as Paul wrote Romans 13 and 1 Peter 5 were written.

Fervent · Thursday at 5:57 PM

RDKirk said:
Remember that Nero was in power as Paul wrote Romans 13 and 1 Peter 5 were written.

I am well aware, but what you're trying to prove with that statement is beyond me. Should we not mould our understanding to our present circumstances? What is your point with that piece of trivia?

Pepperdoodle · Thursday at 6:13 PM

Fervent said:
I think there's more to dealing with issues of crime than punishing criminals.

Care to elaborate?

Fervent said:
So do you think the sole function of government in maintaining justice is exacting punishment on criminals, or does justice require equity and impartiality in other areas as well?

What do you mean by "equity and impartiality" toward crimianls?

Fervent · Thursday at 6:17 PM

Pepperdoodle said:
Care to elaborate?

Only focusing on how to deal with people who have committed crimes seems to me a matter of shutting the barn door after the horse is out. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so to truly embody justice it would be wise to address the factors that push people to commit crime not just wait for crimes to happen and punish the offenders.

Pepperdoodle said:
What do you mean by "equity and impartiality" toward crimianls?

Not necessarily towards criminals, but more questioning whether justice encompasses humanitarian causes and concerns. Justice being only a question of crime and punishment seems unnaturally restrictive to me.

Pepperdoodle · Thursday at 6:34 PM

Fervent said:
Only focusing on how to deal with people who have committed crimes seems to me a matter of shutting the barn door after the horse is out. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so to truly embody justice it would be wise to address the factors that push people to commit crime not just wait for crimes to happen and punish the offenders.

Once a person has committed a crime, they have put themselves on the path of justice dealing with it.
If you have say 3 kids in one household and they all are raised basically the same, but one of them commits crimes, that isn't the parent's fault, it's the person who committed the crimes fault.
Prevention, hmm, depends on what you mean by that. Could God have prevented Adam and Eve from disobeying Him, sure, since He's God...but, He gave each of us free will. We get to choose how we go through life. Some lean toward good and some lean toward evil. That's just how sinful mankind is. Unless I'm misunderstanding, not sure prevention can happen since we don't know people's hearts, intents. The results of their choices if they lean criminal can be known though and should be dealt with through punishment.

Fervent said:
Not necessarily towards criminals, but more questioning whether justice encompasses humanitarian causes and concerns. Justice being only a question of crime and punishment seems unnaturally restrictive to me.

What kind of "humanitarian causes and concerns"?

Fervent · Thursday at 6:41 PM

Pepperdoodle said:
Once a person has committed a crime, they have put themselves on the path of justice dealing with it.
If you have say 3 kids in one household and they all are raised basically the same, but one of them commits crimes, that isn't the parent's fault, it's the person who committed the crimes fault.

Certainly, but there are statistical factors that increase the likelihood that someone will commit crimes that can be addressed before they reach the point of committing crimes.

Pepperdoodle said:
Prevention, hmm, depends on what you mean by that. Could God have prevented Adam and Eve from disobeying Him, sure, since He's God...but, He gave each of us free will. We get to choose how we go through life. Some lean toward good and some lean toward evil. That's just how sinful mankind is. Unless I'm misunderstanding, not sure prevention can happen since we don't know people's hearts, intents. The results of their choices if they lean criminal can be known though and should be dealt with through punishment.

The notion that it is nothing more than a criminal's choice seems overly simplistic to me.

Pepperdoodle said:
What kind of "humanitarian causes and concerns"?

Widespread hunger, income inequality, limited options for legal advancement, poor education, social exclusion, continuous exposure to violence in their home and schools. Basically, meeting people's basic needs.

lismore · Thursday at 6:47 PM

Fervent said:
I have my thoughts, but I want to hear some other opinions before divulging them.

The only righteous government will be when the Lord Jesus returns, we are to pray 'your Kingdom come'. 'Come Lord Jesus, come'. The role of government will ultimately to be subsumed by the splendour of his coming.

Until then on individual policies, like abortion, one party or government can have a stance that is more closely aligned to biblical values than others and one individual candidate may be better from a Christian perspective than others, but no political party or government aligns well with biblical values overall. Political parties and governments are ultimately horns on the same goat, or cheeks on the same posterior.

The Kingdom of God is not of this world and we are blessed for that fact.

Kind Regards

Fervent · Thursday at 6:50 PM

lismore said:
The only righteous government will be when the Lord Jesus returns, we are to pray 'your Kingdom come'. 'Come Lord Jesus, come'. The role of government will ultimately to be subsumed by the splendour of his coming.

I think that goes without saying, though I do appreciate you spelling it out.

lismore said:
Until then on individual policies, like abortion, one party or government can have a stance that is more closely aligned to biblical values than others and one individual candidate may be better from a Christian perspective than others, but no political party or government aligns well with biblical values overall. Political parties and governments are ultimately horns on the same goat, or cheeks on the same posterior.

I'm thinking more fundamentally...more in our central theories of government and what it is meant to accomplish.

lismore said:
The Kingdom of God is not of this world and we are blessed for that fact.

Yes, but we don't cease being Christians when we enter the voting booth.

lismore said:
Kind Regards

Thanks, kind regards to you as well.

Pepperdoodle · Thursday at 6:59 PM

Fervent said:
Widespread hunger, income inequality, limited options for legal advancement, poor education, social exclusion, continuous exposure to violence in their home and schools. Basically, meeting people's basic needs.

- Society and churches can help with hunger. Teach, encourage people to garden, etc.
- "income inequality" In what respect are you referring to?
- "limited options for legal advancement" What do you mean by this in the context of the overall topic of government?
- Education used ot be better, but it's only gotten worse in gov't run public schools.
- "social exclusion" ...of who?
- We can't police peoples homes for violence unless there is something of notice. Plus, violence is so everywhere in video games, tv, movies, songs, etc. If all of that stopped alone, it would help. But it makes money so doubt that will happen.

Fervent · Thursday at 7:04 PM

Pepperdoodle said:
- Society and churches can help with hunger. Teach, encourage people to garden, etc.

Sure, but institutions can do it more effectively.

Pepperdoodle said:
- "income inequality" In what respect are you referring to?

Mass disparity between ordinary citizens and those at the top.

Pepperdoodle said:
- "limited options for legal advancement" What do you mean by this in the context of the overall topic of government?

Subsidies for employment opportunities, job training, agencies to find jobs....things along that line.

Pepperdoodle said:
- Education used ot be better, but it's only gotten worse in gov't run public schools.

By what metric?

Pepperdoodle said:
- "social exclusion" ...of who?

This one is less government related, and more to do with pro-social attitudes.

Pepperdoodle said:
- We can't police peoples homes for violence unless there is something of notice. Plus, violence is so everywhere in video games, tv, movies, songs, etc. If all of that stopped alone, it would help. But it makes money so doubt that will happen.

Homes, no. But I'm not just speaking of homes, but neighborhoods, schools, etc. Violence in video games and movies isn't the same as continuous environmental exposure.

Hentenza · Thursday at 7:11 PM

Fantine said:
It breaks my heart to realize that many Hindus and Buddhists--and even secular humanists--"get" Jesus' message so much better than some Christians (primarily Christian nationalists.)
There's a book circulating around my circle of friends (it's available in online public library sites like Libby--that's how I read it.) It's called "Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation." It gives me hope because separating the unholy alliance between fundamentalist Christianity and conservative politics will give all Christians the real Jesus back--the infant with teen parents fleeing murder and seeking asylum in Egypt, the eloquent author of the Beatitudes--blessed are the poor, the meek, the merciful. the pure of heart." Jesus the itinerant preacher and healer, homeless, possessing one coat and giving the second coat away. John Fugelsang takes it one step further in his new book, "Separation of Church and Hate." I know you won't approve of these books, but it will help us to understand you all, and understanding is the first step towards healing--and perhaps even forgiveness (another sterling virtue practiced by Jesus.)

I thought you were Catholic, one of the most fundamentalist churches in the world. Don’t make me go back in history.

Richard T · Thursday at 9:45 PM

Pepperdoodle said:
The government is to promote justice, acting as agents of justice and retribution for wrongdoing.
The government is to restrain evil and punish those criminals.
The government is to uphold the laws and hold those who break them accountable.
The government is to giving each criminal the right punishment for their crimes.

Sadly as we have seen in society, especially the last 15+ yrs it's mainly the Left who are soft on criminals.
Giving slaps on the wrist doesn't help the criminal or society.
Yes, there can be restorative measures, but they should be along with time served whether in jail, prison, but also maybe community service, repayment if money is involved, etc.

Evil, sin and wrongdoing have always been, but they need to be dealt with properly and sadly some governments aren't doing what they should be doing in that area for whatever nefarious reasons they have in not properly dealing with criminals.

Do you think governments handle criminals properly?

I think that the right are too soft on white collar crimes. Fraud, money laundering, bribery, price-fixing and violations of anti-trust laws are examples. I could cite many specifics of people who have been pardoned, laws ignored, or where the government has refused to prosecute that come from the right.
The one principle that I think God endorses is that government treat everyone equally in regards to prosecution. That does not always happen. Sometimes too the right has issues with being overly aggressive. The use of deadly force on drug smugglers is such a policy. The Godly principle "let everything be established by two or three witnesses" also is sometimes ignored.

Americans especially need to be concerned because sometimes policy motivations on the war on terror are sometimes falsified. The case for the war in Iraq for instance. Both the left and the right do this though I chose the right mainly in my examples to illustrate that the imbalance comes from both sides.

Fervent · Thursday at 9:58 PM

Richard T said:
The one principle that I think God endorses is that government treat everyone equally in regards to prosecution.

This is along the lines of the kind of opinions I was hoping would get discussed in this thread. Though I'm not sure it is a lone principle.

In particular, what I was hoping would get focused on is what it is that governments are instituted to preserve/protect...and whether or not the Enlightenment value of protecting individual liberties as the primary function of governments passes Biblical muster.

Is there a Biblical mandate on what the role of government should be?

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