Is there a Biblical mandate on what the role of government should be?

Fervent · 2025-11-05T19:48:10-0600

One of the central disagreements in politics today seems to boil down to what we think the proper function of government is. Is it to preserve individual liberties? Or is it to ensure that every citizen has their basic needs met? Some other central function? My question is, what light does the Bible shed on this question? If we look at the structure of Israel in the OT, what can we learn about how God intends for governments to function and what their mandate is?

I have my thoughts, but I want to hear some other opinions before divulging them.

Fantine · 2025-11-05T21:36:12-0600

My thoughts are that the world has changed so much since Biblical times that we should not look to it for advice on governmental matters.

I agree with Jesuit scholar Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The universe is continually expanding and growing. God's creation continues.

We should be striving to acquire a higher level of consciousness as we 'seek God.' That is one way that the Bible and modern theology coincide.

Teilhard de Chardin--Our Universe Keeps Expanding, Creation Still Occurs

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's philosophy suggests that the universe is in a state of continuous expansion and evolution, with creation still occurring. He believed that evolution is a general condition to which all theories and hypotheses must conform, illuminating all facts and guiding the universe towards a higher level of consciousness. Teilhard's vision of the universe as a dynamic process of evolution, where consciousness increases from an unconscious geosphere to a conscious sphere of mind, is a key aspect of his thought. He saw the arrival of human beings on the cosmic scene as a pivotal moment in the evolutionary process, signaling that evolution is becoming conscious of itself. Teilhard's ideas are not only about the physical universe but also about the spiritual and moral dimensions of existence, suggesting that the universe's expansion and creation are interconnected.

Fervent · 2025-11-05T21:42:38-0600

Fantine said:
My thoughts are that the world has changed so much since Biblical times that we should not look to it for advice on governmental matters.

Hardly seems a fit opinion for someone who professes to be a Christian. Its one thing to recognize that it needs contextualization, but to blithely dismiss it in favor of worldly wisdom is foolish IMO. By what right can you claim to be guided by God if you reject the expression of the Word of God in human language as passe?

Fantine · 2025-11-05T21:50:12-0600

Christianity is a much bigger tent than you acknowledge, encapsulating many, many, many schools of thought.

During the early Church, an imperialistic empire enslaved the nations they conquered and even held circuses during which some unfortunate slaves were devoured by lions. King Herod, a genocidal murderer of male infants and toddlers, is no role model for anyone. Are you implying we should look to the Bible to see what governmental forms we shouldn't entertain?

Fervent · 2025-11-05T21:53:06-0600

Fantine said:
Christianity is a much bigger tent than you acknowledge, encapsulating many, many, many schools of thought.

Moving beyond the bounds of the Bible renders the "school of thought" unlikely to be Christian other than nominatively.

Fantine said:
During the early Church, an imperialistic empire enslaved the nations they conquered and even held circuses during which some unfortunate slaves were devoured by lions. King Herod, a genocidal murderer of male infants and toddlers, is no role model for anyone. Are you implying we should look to the Bible to see what governmental forms we shouldn't entertain?

I believe that as Christians we should look to the Bible to determine every normative question, including what forms of government to endorse and what the primary function of government ought to be.

RDKirk · 2025-11-05T22:25:27-0600

Fervent said:
Moving beyond the bounds of the Bible renders the "school of thought" unlikely to be Christian other than nominatively.

I believe that as Christians we should look to the Bible to determine every normative question, including what forms of government to endorse and what the primary function of government ought to be.

To endorse any earthly government as a Christian is to say Christ approves of it.

That's not something any Christian should do, because we are citizens of a different government headed by Christ. That would be like a citizen of Great Britain endorsing, say, Uganda, as a government approved by King Charles.

1 Peter is the "field manual" for us citizens of Heaven assigned as diplomats to earthly nations. It does instruct us as diplomats to honor the laws of the nations we are assigned to. But that does not mean endorsing any one of them as a Christ-approved form of government. As far as Christ instructs us through scripture, we are agnostic in that regard.

Fervent · 2025-11-05T22:29:58-0600

RDKirk said:
To endorse any earthly government as a Christian is to say Christ approves of it.

That's not something any Christian should do, because we are citizens of a different government headed by Christ. That would be like a citizen of Great Britain endorsing, say, Uganda, as a government approved by King Charles.

1 Peter is the "field manual" for us citizens of Heaven assigned as diplomats to earthly nations. It does instruct us as diplomats to honor the laws of the nations we are assigned to. But that does not mean endorsing any one of them as a Christ-approved form of government. As far as Christ instructs us through scripture, we are agnostic in that regard.

Fair point, though I'm not sure it's quite that cut and dry. Particularly for those of us who are under governments that operate under an ostensible commitment to the consent of the governed.

Where we have responsibility to exercise our civic opportunities to shape policy, it seems to me that identifying a Biblical foundation for the proper role and function of government is a worthwhile endeavor so that we may adjust our political aims to fit that basis.

RDKirk · 2025-11-05T22:38:51-0600

Fervent said:
Fair point, though I'm not sure it's quite that cut and dry. Particularly for those of us who are under governments that operate under an ostensible commitment to the consent of the governed.

Where we have responsibility to exercise our civic opportunities to shape policy, it seems to me that identifying a Biblical foundation for the proper role and function of government is a worthwhile endeavor so that we may adjust our political aims to fit that basis.

This point:

“Were you a bondservant when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.)
For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ.
You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.” -- 1 Corinthians 7:21–23

If we have anything to say about a form of government, this is the important point: That we chose as much liberty as possible to operate as ambassadors of Christ within that nation.

It is not the function of Christians to use the emperor's sword to force pagans to act like Christians.

No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather works to please his commanding officer. -- 2 Timothy 2:4

Fervent · 2025-11-05T22:48:02-0600

RDKirk said:
This point:

“Were you a bondservant when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.)
For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ.
You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.” -- 1 Corinthians 7:21–23

If we have anything to say about a form of government, this is the important point: That we chose as much liberty as possible to operate as ambassadors of Christ within that nation

I'm not sure how you get from one to the other. Care to unpack this a bit more?

RDKirk said:
It is not the function of Christians to use the emperor's sword to force pagans to act like Christians.

Certainly, but that's not what I'm suggesting. What I am suggesting is that as wielders of civic power we have a responsibility to embrace policies that make the government reflect Christian values, not put a yoke on pagans to be well-behaved pagans. Which means exploring what God values in governance and where the emphases should rest.

RDKirk said:
No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather works to please his commanding officer. -- 2 Timothy 2:4

Despite the verbiage, an exhortation to endure hardship gracefully isn't really relevant to making use of the liberties afforded us to ensure that our values are in line with God's values on political questions and our government reflects those values in some sense.

Fantine · 2025-11-05T23:13:20-0600

It breaks my heart to realize that many Hindus and Buddhists--and even secular humanists--"get" Jesus' message so much better than some Christians (primarily Christian nationalists.)
There's a book circulating around my circle of friends (it's available in online public library sites like Libby--that's how I read it.) It's called "Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation." It gives me hope because separating the unholy alliance between fundamentalist Christianity and conservative politics will give all Christians the real Jesus back--the infant with teen parents fleeing murder and seeking asylum in Egypt, the eloquent author of the Beatitudes--blessed are the poor, the meek, the merciful. the pure of heart." Jesus the itinerant preacher and healer, homeless, possessing one coat and giving the second coat away. John Fugelsang takes it one step further in his new book, "Separation of Church and Hate." I know you won't approve of these books, but it will help us to understand you all, and understanding is the first step towards healing--and perhaps even forgiveness (another sterling virtue practiced by Jesus.)

Fervent · 2025-11-05T23:16:06-0600

Fantine said:
It breaks my heart to realize that many Hindus and Buddhists--and even secular humanists--"get" Jesus' message so much better than some Christians (primarily evangelical Christians.)
There's a book circulating around my circle of friends (it's available in online public library sites like Libby--that's how I read it.) It's called "Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation." It gives me hope because separating the unholy alliance between fundamentalist Christianity and conservative politics will give all Christians the real Jesus back--the infant with teen parents fleeing murder and seeking asylum in Egypt, the eloquent author of the Beatitudes--blessed are the poor, the meek, the merciful. the pure of heart." Jesus the itinerant preacher and healer, homeless, possessing one coat and giving the second coat away. John Fugelsang takes it one step further in his new book, "Separation of Church and Hate." I know you won't approve of these books, but it will help us to understand you all, and understanding is the first step towards healing--and perhaps even forgiveness (another sterling virtue practiced by Jesus.)

Your biases are shining through more than anything else with this post. Perhaps if you got off your soapbox and took the time to deal with individuals you'd learn something.

Fantine · 2025-11-05T23:18:20-0600

We all need to deal with individuals--but when a group of individuals collectively are destroying your community, your state, your nation, with repercussions around the whole world--repairing the damage is what must take priority.
And being "biased" towards the poor in spirit, the meek, the pure in heart, the merciful, those who hunger and thirst for justice seems like having a bias towards the right values and the right people.

Fervent · 2025-11-05T23:20:04-0600

Fantine said:
We all need to deal with individuals--but when a group of individuals collectively are destroying your community, your state, your nation, with repercussions around the whole world--repairing the damage is what must take priority.

Uh huh. And blathering on with platitudes when none of your boogeymen are present is supposed to do what?

Tom8907 · 2025-11-05T23:22:06-0600

Contrary to all the Christian Nationalists today, no the NT never mentions about being actively involved in politics.

Fervent · 2025-11-05T23:23:11-0600

Tom8907 said:
Contrary to all the Christian Nationalists today, no the NT never mentions about being actively involved in politics.

Christian nationalism has nothing to do with my original question.

Fantine · 2025-11-06T05:08:30-0600

Fervent said:
Christian nationalism has nothing to do with my original question.

To the contrary. He answered it perfectly.
No Biblical mandate.
Don't you remember render to Caesar? If you are looking for someone to.justify an oppressive, punitive Sharia Law based on a warped and incomplete "Christian" perspective you're not going to find it.

Maria Billingsley · 2025-11-06T07:26:32-0600

Fervent said:
One of the central disagreements in politics today seems to boil down to what we think the proper function of government is. Is it to preserve individual liberties? Or is it to ensure that every citizen has their basic needs met? Some other central function? My question is, what light does the Bible shed on this question? If we look at the structure of Israel in the OT, what can we learn about how God intends for governments to function and what their mandate is?

I have my thoughts, but I want to hear some other opinions before divulging them.

We cannot use Ancient Israel as a political model. It was, at its core, a Theocratic Monarchy, a system fundamentally different from our own constitutional democracy.
Furthermore, contemporary examples, such as those nations that are strictly Theocratic Monarchies or closely related regimes, demonstrate the incompatibility of this system with democratic freedom.
The ultimate objection, however, is theological: Jesus Christ of Nazareth made it very clear that His Kingdom is not of this world. As He stated, His rule is spiritual, not temporal.
Attempts to erect a forced earthly government in His name would not only be contrary to our Lord's explicit instruction but would also invariably create a system characterized by religious coercion and the oppression of conscience. Further information below.

Be blessed.

* Vatican City (Theocratic Monarchy)
* Ruled by the Pope, who is the head of the Catholic Church and holds absolute temporal power.
* Saudi Arabia (Theocratic Monarchy/Absolute Monarchy)
* The King is the head of state, but the constitution is officially the Qur'an and Sunnah, and all law is derived from Sharia (Islamic law).
* Iran (Theocratic Republic)
* Governed by an elected president and parliament, but the ultimate authority rests with the unelected Supreme Leader and the Guardian Council, who are Islamic clerics.
* Afghanistan (Islamic Emirate/Theocracy)
* Currently governed by the Taliban, an Islamic movement whose political power is concentrated in the hands of a supreme religious leader and clerical advisors who impose a strict interpretation of Sharia law.
* Mauritania (Islamic Republic/Theocracy)
* Its constitution defines it as an Islamic Republic, and it legally bases its entire system on Sharia Law.

Fervent · 2025-11-06T07:55:19-0600

Maria Billingsley said:
We cannot use Ancient Israel as a political model. It was, at its core, a Theocratic Monarchy, a system fundamentally different from our own constitutional democracy.
Furthermore, contemporary examples, such as those nations that are strictly Theocratic Monarchies or closely related regimes, demonstrate the incompatibility of this system with democratic freedom.
The ultimate objection, however, is theological: Jesus Christ of Nazareth made it very clear that His Kingdom is not of this world. As He stated, His rule is spiritual, not temporal.
Attempts to erect a forced earthly government in His name would not only be contrary to our Lord's explicit instruction but would also invariably create a system characterized by religious coercion and the oppression of conscience. Further information below.

Be blessed.

* Vatican City (Theocratic Monarchy)
* Ruled by the Pope, who is the head of the Catholic Church and holds absolute temporal power.
* Saudi Arabia (Theocratic Monarchy/Absolute Monarchy)
* The King is the head of state, but the constitution is officially the Qur'an and Sunnah, and all law is derived from Sharia (Islamic law).
* Iran (Theocratic Republic)
* Governed by an elected president and parliament, but the ultimate authority rests with the unelected Supreme Leader and the Guardian Council, who are Islamic clerics.
* Afghanistan (Islamic Emirate/Theocracy)
* Currently governed by the Taliban, an Islamic movement whose political power is concentrated in the hands of a supreme religious leader and clerical advisors who impose a strict interpretation of Sharia law.
* Mauritania (Islamic Republic/Theocracy)
* Its constitution defines it as an Islamic Republic, and it legally bases its entire system on Sharia Law.

Maybe not as a model, but to develop some governing principles. Unless you are suggesting we abstain from engaging in politics entirely, we cannot separate our voting conscience from our faith. This isn't about establishing a kingdom on Earth, but about conforming our political ideas to what God values in government.

Maria Billingsley · 2025-11-06T08:00:21-0600

Fervent said:
Maybe not as a model, but to develop some governing principles. Unless you are suggesting we abstain from engaging in politics entirely, we cannot separate our voting conscience from our faith. This isn't about establishing a kingdom on Earth, but about conforming our political ideas to what God values in government.

You mean maintaining one's Christian faith while serving in a government capacity? Of course!! But I am thinking you are actually referring to Christian Nationalism which I am fervently against.
Thanks for sharing.

Edit: By this statement and using the word " mandate " makes your post about Christian Nationalism.

"If we look at the structure of Israel in the OT, what can we learn about how God intends for governments to function and what their mandate is?"

FireDragon76 · 2025-11-06T08:04:58-0600

Fantine said:
It breaks my heart to realize that many Hindus and Buddhists--and even secular humanists--"get" Jesus' message so much better than some Christians (primarily Christian nationalists.)
There's a book circulating around my circle of friends (it's available in online public library sites like Libby--that's how I read it.) It's called "Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation." It gives me hope because separating the unholy alliance between fundamentalist Christianity and conservative politics will give all Christians the real Jesus back--the infant with teen parents fleeing murder and seeking asylum in Egypt, the eloquent author of the Beatitudes--blessed are the poor, the meek, the merciful. the pure of heart." Jesus the itinerant preacher and healer, homeless, possessing one coat and giving the second coat away. John Fugelsang takes it one step further in his new book, "Separation of Church and Hate." I know you won't approve of these books, but it will help us to understand you all, and understanding is the first step towards healing--and perhaps even forgiveness (another sterling virtue practiced by Jesus.)

Good book, bad title. If you actually delve into Du Mez's work, it's pretty obvious that the Christian nationalism stream has always been part of the American landscape. Her own Dutch Reformed tradition has always had its own Christian nationalist impulses, too, all one has to do is look at the politics of South Africa to see how that can play out. In many wasy, American Christian nationalism is analogous.

The Reformed emphasis on attacking idolatry, prioritizing the Third Use of the Law as the defining mark of the true Church, etc. are all things that can push that religious tradition towards totalitarianism.

The western obsession with individualism, instrumental reason, certainty, and control, over relationship, embodied wisdom, and community are stumbling blocks to any serious engagement with Jesus' teachings.

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