Average consumer now carries $6,329 in credit card debt. 'People are stretched,' expert says

Paulos23 · Feb 13, 2025

Credit Card debt has nothing to do with any party but has to do with the "buy it now, pay later" attitude that has been pushed on us by marketing.

Not to mention that many people don't have any savings for emergencies and those tend to go on the credit card and never get paid down

HARK! · Wednesday at 4:00 PM

HARK! said:

HARK! · Wednesday at 4:07 PM

Gold Price Today | Price of Gold Per Ounce | 24 Hour Spot Chart | KITCO

Live Gold Charts and Gold Spot Price from International Gold Markets, Prices from New York, London, Hong Kong and Sydney provided by Kitco.

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War has way of devaluing fiat currencies; and fiat currencies have a life cycle. The life cycle of the US dollar is nearing its' end.

Hans Blaster · Wednesday at 5:25 PM

HARK! said:
War has way of devaluing fiat currencies; and fiat currencies have a life cycle. The life cycle of the US dollar is nearing its' end.

First, shiny metals are a silly thing to rack up CC debt for (you know, the subject).

Second, what war?

HARK! · Wednesday at 11:43 PM

Hans Blaster said:
First, shiny metals are a silly thing to rack up CC debt for (you know, the subject).

If that's the case; why are central bankers, all over the world, creating more funny money to buy it up as fast as they can lay their hands on it?

It's a hedge against inflation of fiat currency. Inflation is what is causing the ramp in CC debt. People are buying their groceries on credit.

Hans Blaster said:
Second, what war?

All of them. The current one with Russia is nothing to sneeze at.

Hans Blaster · Wednesday at 11:52 PM

HARK! said:
If that's the case; why are central bankers, all over the world, creating more funny money to buy it up as fast as they can lay their hands on it?

Sure.

HARK! said:
It's a hedge against inflation of fiat currency. Inflation is what is causing the ramp in CC debt. People are buying their groceries on credit.

I thought that was from job losses that people by groceries on credit.

HARK! said:
All of them. The current one with Russia is nothing to sneeze at.

And Russia's economy isn't doing well, but that has nothing to do with our economy.

HARK! · 2025-10-09T00:10:57-0500

Hans Blaster said:
Sure.

Are you conceding on that point; or is that your answer to my question?

Hans Blaster said:
I thought that was from job losses that people by groceries on credit.

Job losses are part of the picture. When people can't afford to buy products; employers need to downsize to stay in business.

Another part of the picture is that as costs rise due to inflation; wage increases are not keeping in step; so those who manage to keep their jobs, are feeling the squeeze too.

Hans Blaster said:
And Russia's economy isn't doing well, but that has nothing to do with our economy.

World economies are all connected.

Europe depends heavily on Russian energy. That energy is being cut off. That means that there is less energy on the market. Europe's people are struggling to heat their homes. Their economy is in the dumper.

As this world runs on energy, it boggles my mind that the price of oil is being suppressed in the face of short supply and rising inflation.

Wars burn a lot of energy too. I don't believe that it's coincidence that Iran, and Venezuela, have recently become sharp points of interest.

I believe that WWIII is already started; and I suspect that this ruse will soon come to an end.

However, I still pray for peace.

Hans Blaster · 2025-10-09T00:45:10-0500

HARK! said:
Are you conceding on that point; or is that your answer to my question?

I thought the sardonic 500 eyerolls were implied but...

HARK! said:
Job losses are part of the picture. When people can't afford to buy products; employers need to downsize to stay in business.

Another part of the picture is that as costs rise due to inflation; wage increases are not keeping in step; so those who manage to keep their jobs, are feeling the squeeze too.

I forgot the tarifs.

HARK! said:
World economies are all connected.

Europe depends heavily on Russian energy. That energy is being cut off. That means that there is less energy on the market. Europe's people are struggling to heat their homes. Their economy is in the dumper.

Europe is mostly done with Russian fossil fuels.

HARK! said:
As this world runs on energy, it boggles my mind that the price of oil is being suppressed in the face of short supply and rising inflation.

Suppressed how?

HARK! said:
Wars burn a lot of energy too. I don't believe that it's coincidence that Iran, and Venezuela, have recently become sharp points of interest.

From whom?

HARK! said:
I believe that WWIII is already started; and I suspect that this ruse will soon come to an end.

Good grief.

HARK! said:
However, I still pray for peace.

Could you do less?

Tuur · 2025-10-09T05:19:11-0500

HARK! said:
If that's the case; why are central bankers, all over the world, creating more funny money to buy it up as fast as they can lay their hands on it?

Because stupid is as stupid does?

Don't go into dept over speculative deals. Just don't. The bottom could drop out and then you're left owing more than what you bought is worth. That's how a lot of banks got in trouble when the real estate bubble popped.

HARK! · 2025-10-09T11:57:45-0500

Hans Blaster said:
I thought the sardonic 500 eyerolls were implied but...

Central bank purchases have been the main driver of the sharp rise in gold prices, Struyven said. “Central banks are now buying roughly 80 tonnes per month. That is about five times faster than before 2022. Several important Asian and emerging market central banks are still underweight gold and have significant room to increase their reserves,” he explained. He expects central banks to continue buying at a rapid pace for the next three years, pushing gold prices even higher.

Growing expectations of additional US Federal Reserve rate cuts later this year have further supported the safe-haven demand for gold. Prices have also been buoyed by concerns over a possible US government shutdown.

Gold could hit $4,300 per ounce by end of 2026 driven by central bank purchases: Goldman Sachs - CNBC TV18

Central banks are driving gold prices higher, with purchases hitting record levels and supporting a rally that could take the metal above $4,000 per ounce by next year. Analysts say silver could also see gains if investors shift from gold, as geopolitical uncertainty and potential Fed rate cuts...

www.cnbctv18.com

HARK! · 2025-10-09T12:03:58-0500

Hans Blaster said:
Europe is mostly done with Russian fossil fuels.

Exactly

Hans Blaster said:
Suppressed how?

Like I said, it boggles the mind. Energy drives the world. As prices for products continue to climb; the cost of the energy behind creating and delivering those products doesn't correlate.

You do understand that the markets are manipulated?

HARK! · 2025-10-09T12:14:14-0500

Tuur said:
Because stupid is as stupid does?

As of July 1, 2025, gold will officially be classified as a Tier 1, high-quality liquid asset (HQLA) under the Basel III banking regulations. That means U.S. banks can count physical gold, at 100% of its market value, toward their core capital reserves. No longer will it be marked down by 50% as a “Tier 3” asset, as it was under the old rules.

Gold Goes Full Reserve Asset As Basel III Elevates It To Tier 1 Status

As of July 1, 2025, gold will officially be classified as a Tier 1, high-quality liquid asset (HQLA) under the Basel III banking regulations.

www.forbes.com

That doesn't explain why the smart money is, not only buying, but taking physical delivery of gold.

...But who knows? Maybe those guys who print the fiat currency, don't know as much about money as we do.

"Gold is money. Everything else is credit." ~J. P. Morgan

J.P. Morgan's tool shed

ThatRobGuy · 2025-10-09T13:15:31-0500

I wonder how much of this is residuals from people falling into the variable interest HELOC trap.

According to Equifax aggregated data, there were millions of HELOC originations between 2020 and the second half of 2022. (when the prime rate was lower)

When the prime rate was raised over the subsequent 2 years (from 3.25% to 8.5%), that probably threw some people through a loop.

For those unfamiliar with the acronym, HELOC = Home Equity line of credit. Those are directly anchored to the prime rate. Typically with a model such as "Prime + 0.5%" (sometimes lending institutions will run promotions like "rate locked at 2% for 12 months" or things of that nature)

So for example:

If a person opened an equity line of credit and borrowed $50k against their home with Prime + 0.5% terms...

In 2020 Their minimum payment would've been in the ballpark of $150.
In 2024 Their minimum payment would've been approaching near $450.

That's a large enough difference that for your average person on a budget, they're going to start having to reach for credit cards for certain things.

HARK! · 2025-10-09T13:26:44-0500

ThatRobGuy said:
I wonder how much of this is residuals from people falling into the variable interest HELOC trap.

According to Equifax aggregated data, there were millions of HELOC originations between 2020 and the second half of 2022. (when the prime rate was lower)

When the prime rate was raised over the subsequent 2 years (from 3.25% to 8.5%), that probably threw some people through a loop.

For those unfamiliar with the acronym, HELOC = Home Equity line of credit. Those are directly anchored to the prime rate. Typically with a model such as "Prime + 0.5%" (sometimes lending institutions will run promotions like "rate locked at 2% for 12 months" or things of that nature)

So for example:

If a person opened an equity line of credit and borrowed $50k against their home with Prime + 0.5% terms...

In 2020 Their minimum payment would've been in the ballpark of $150.
In 2024 Their minimum payment would've been approaching near $450.

That's a large enough difference that for your average person on a budget, they're going to start having to reach for credit cards for certain things.

To add to that, I believe that the housing market is in a enormous bubble, and is due for a huge crash.

When that happens, I expect the banks to get bailed out again by the American taxpayer, further accelerating the devaluation of the dollar.

Think about that for a moment. if metals are holding their value, thereby appreciating in value in comparison to the dollar; holding metals hedge against inflation.

I believe that gold and silver are undervalued, even in this bull market, and will continue to appreciate compared to the dollar.

The housing market is one factor that drives inflation through fractional reserve banking.

I believe that the housing market is way overvalued.

If one is accumulating precious metals that might continue to appreciate in value; one could be positioned very well to buy real property should that bubble burst, all the time hedging against the devaluation of the dollar.

Larniavc · 2025-10-09T13:31:05-0500

Paulos23 said:
Not to mention that many people don't have any savings for emergencies and those tend to go on the credit card and never get paid down

What I don’t understand is why everyone has not made the right financial decisions in life to be as financially secure as I am now as an avuncular gentleman in is early 50s.

It’s a mystery.

Paulos23 · 2025-10-09T14:49:39-0500

Larniavc said:
What I don’t understand is why everyone has not made the right financial decisions in life to be as financially secure as I am now as an avuncular gentleman in is early 50s.

It’s a mystery.

You are assuming I have not made any wrong financial decisions. I have. I had a large credit card debt and no house at 40. If I didn't have my job, I would not have made it back from that.

Still, far comment. I managed to have support that most do not get.

Ellesmere · 2025-10-09T18:33:18-0500

Productivity–Pay Tracker

Change 1979q4–2025q2:

Productivity

+87.3%

Hourly pay

+32.7%

Productivity has grown 2.7x as much as pay

From 1970 to the mid-2020s, the CEO-to-worker pay ratio in the US dramatically widened, with CEO pay increasing significantly more than average worker pay. In 1970, the average CEO earned roughly 24 times that of a typical worker; by 2023, this ratio had risen to about 290 times, and by early 2025, it was approaching 300 times. This surge is driven by stock market-linked compensation for CEOs, stagnant worker wages, globalization, and weakened unions.

1970: In 1970, a typical CEO earned about 24 times the compensation of a typical worker, based on a 1965-1970 comparison.
1978: The gap was already widening by 1978, with CEO pay having surged by 1,209% compared to a 15% rise in typical worker pay by 2022.
2023-2025: By 2023, the CEO-to-worker pay ratio reached 290:1, according to Forbes and Statista. Early 2025 data showed the ratio even higher, around 300 times.

CONTRIBUTING FACTORS
**********************************************************************

Weakening Labor Bargaining Power:
- state and federal policies undermining the role of organized labor to maintain the balance the link between productivity and wages ie Right=to-Work legislation
- corporate contributions to political campaigns resulted in more favorable legislation that shifted the balance of power in their favor
-- starting in the 1970's reduced workers' ability to organize resulted in wages and benefits plateauing while productivity increased 2.7X.
- the trend signaling this discrepancy between wages and productivity became much more pronounced during the Reagan Administration

Increased Inequality:
- while wage inequality failed to keep base with productivity senior management continued to receive substantial wage increases and bonuses .

Shift to Capital Income:
- with a greater portion of national income has shifting from labor to senior management, meant that they were the only ones receiving an increasing larger share of the wealth generated by increased productivity.

Policy Changes:
= policies such as reduced minimum wage increases that failed to keep pace with inflation, increased unemployment tolerance, deregulation, and lower top tax rates have contributed to the decoupling.of wages and productivity

Globalization:
- increased competition from nations where workers earned substantially lower low-wages resulted in downward pressure on wage increases
- in many cases this shift to off-shore manufacturing was financed by American corporations

Inflation
- prices of goods and services that workers buy have risen faster than the prices of the goods and services they produce'
- the net result is that the purchasing power of wages is eroded, even if nominal wages rise.which represents a major factor in the increases contributing to consumer Google

q=trasons+for+split+between+productity+and+wages&rlz=1CABBMB_enCA1030CA1030&oq=trasons+for+split+between+productity+and+wages&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCjQ5MjI3ajBqMTWoAgGwAgE&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Google Search

Tuur · 2025-10-09T19:01:13-0500

HARK! said:
As of July 1, 2025, gold will officially be classified as a Tier 1, high-quality liquid asset (HQLA) under the Basel III banking regulations. That means U.S. banks can count physical gold, at 100% of its market value, toward their core capital reserves. No longer will it be marked down by 50% as a “Tier 3” asset, as it was under the old rules.

Then let me spell it out: Anyone who takes out a loan to finance speculative investment had better hope that the rate of return is greater than the interest he's paying on his loan. If he's looking for a profit. that difference in interests, less handling fees, is going to be all the money he sees. If the rate of return is less, then he's under water on his investment. If he's invested so much that he had to take out a loan, he better hope he doesn't run into cash-flow problems before it's paid off. He better hope that it's not a bubble that goes pop. And he better hope no one comes along and does to his investment what the Hunt brothers tried to do with silver. Keep in mind that the banks that went under when the real estate bubble popped were absolutely convinced they would make a profit until all of a sudden they didn't.

You mentioned having physical possession of the gold. This is good. If someone doesn't have it in their hands, he better hopes the company that says he has that gold in a vault really does, or doesn't go under, or society doesn't break down to the point where he can't sell those certificates. But if someone has that gold in their hands, that raises other issues. One is disposing of it. You have to hope where you want to spend it will take gold, then you have to hope it doesn't get out that you have gold. I know of a man who was literally knocked in the head over a century ago because it got out he had a stash of gold. Once anyone learns you have gold, security will be an issue, particularly if things are so bad that society is breaking down.

HARK! · 2025-10-09T20:14:16-0500

Tuur said:
Then let me spell it out: Anyone who takes out a loan to finance speculative investment had better hope that the rate of return is greater than the interest he's paying on his loan. If he's looking for a profit. that difference in interests, less handling fees, is going to be all the money he sees. If the rate of return is less, then he's under water on his investment. If he's invested so much that he had to take out a loan, he better hope he doesn't run into cash-flow problems before it's paid off. He better hope that it's not a bubble that goes pop.

I wasn't suggesting for a moment to go into debt to buy metals, nor even to buy them on margin.

People were jumping out of windows over such practices in 1929.

“The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.” – Proverbs 22:7

Tuur said:
And he better hope no one comes along and does to his investment what the Hunt brothers tried to do with silver.

A Hunt brothers scenario would be a windfall for anyone holding silver.

Did they go to jail for that?

Tuur said:
You mentioned having physical possession of the gold. This is good. If someone doesn't have it in their hands, he better hopes the company that says he has that gold in a vault really does, or doesn't go under, or society doesn't break down to the point where he can't sell those certificates.

I wouldn't buy anything that has any counterparty risk. If you don't hold it; you don't own it.

Tuur said:
But if someone has that gold in their hands, that raises other issues. One is disposing of it. You have to hope where you want to spend it will take gold

I've never seen a time in history where you couldn't find someone to accept gold.

Tuur said:
then you have to hope it doesn't get out that you have gold.

Gold is highly valuable. It not very practical for every day purchases. It is a very compact way to store great wealth.

Silver is more practical for small trades; and if one trades silver jewelry; it lowers suspicion that one is sitting on stockpiles.

Tuur said:
then you have to hope it doesn't get out that you have gold. I know of a man who was literally knocked in the head over a century ago because it got out he had a stash of gold. Once anyone learns you have gold, security will be an issue, particularly if things are so bad that society is breaking down.

I have worn gold jewelry, in some pretty rough parts of town, for all to see; and I've never been knocked on the head.

Again, if you were sitting on gold bricks; you wouldn't be taking one to trade for a chicken dinner.

Gold is not very practical for a societal breakdown. Food, water, medicine, bullets and bandages, are more practical in such a situation. Again, gold is a way to store vast amounts of wealth. It would be useful after society begins to rebuild.

HARK! · 2025-10-09T20:23:38-0500

Ellesmere said:
From 1970 to the mid-2020s, the CEO-to-worker pay ratio in the US dramatically widened,

Yes labor is a commodity subject to supply and demand, just like any other commodity.

Illegal aliens have saturated the labor market, thereby devaluing the bargaining power of the American worker.

AI is positioned to devalue that bargaining power on a unprecedented level.

We have all of that to look forward to.

Average consumer now carries $6,329 in credit card debt. 'People are stretched,' expert says

Never tell me the odds!

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Never tell me the odds!

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Productivity–Pay Tracker​

Change 1979q4–2025q2:​

Productivity​

+87.3%​

Hourly pay​

+32.7%​

Productivity has grown 2.7x as much as pay​

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Similar threads

Productivity–Pay Tracker

Change 1979q4–2025q2:

Productivity

+87.3%

Hourly pay

+32.7%

Productivity has grown 2.7x as much as pay