It seemed so easy for the thief on the cross to be saved.

FireDragon76 · Jun 5, 2025

Jamdoc said:
Luke 24

Came in the Flesh, and was risen in the Flesh.
something hard, tangible, and people died professing they saw Jesus in the flesh resurrected from the dead despite being separated from each other.
God made a hard, tangible, physical universe that He operates on.
and will make a tangible, physical recreated universe that He will live in.

When people go off to claim everything is just "spiritual" often times, it's just because they have no hard evidence.

When Harold Camping claimed the date of the rapture was May 11, 2011, and it didn't happen... he tried to excuse it, and say that a "spiritual rapture" happened.
Following in the traditions of the creation of the Jehovah's Witnesses, who got their rapture date wrong, and .. just said it was spiritual.

So when people promote "kingdom now" theology... yeah
I still see people suffering and dying and sinning, I still see this Earth as cursed, not a New Earth perfected as promised. I still suffer the effects of this cursed ball of sin myself.
abstracting it to "heaven is a state of mind" or just trying to throw "spiritual" out like some sort of gotcha doesn't fly. It makes God disappointing if this is the best He can do.

I don't believe that, I believe God will do better, and there will be no more sin, and no more death.
Anything else is a charlatan.

The potential confusion here is assuming some kind of rigid dualist metaphysics, that the only possible alternative to some kind of supernatural "swoon" hypothesis (Jesus resurrection was merely a resuscitation), was that Jesus was merely a spirit, vision or delusion, without a bodily form. But that's a false dichotomy born of metaphysical presuppositions that aren't necessarily in keeping with the biblical accounts. So what we are left with is something of a mystery that points beyond itself, seemingly towards a spirit that you can touch, or even hang out on a lakeshore with, and bodies that can enter locked rooms, appear as strangers, or instantly appear and disappear.

It's supposed to blow your mind. That's the whole point. That's why Thomas basically says "Oh my God!" when he meets the risen Jesus. There's nothing left to say. Jesus has shattered every other reality in Thomas' mind, and what is left is radical, divine love that has already broken the power of sin and death, bringing eternity into the present, the infinite into the finite. And this shattering leads to the first inkling of crystalized Christian conviction: who else but God could be the source of life, love, and resurrection?

We wrote a contemporary hymn based on a detailed Bible study of this passage, using DeepSeek and Suno. I think it's pretty good at encapsulating the themes at the end of the Gospel of John:

https://suno.com/s/WdZeXulZVQJF3HXj

Jamdoc · Jun 7, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
The potential confusion here is assuming some kind of rigid dualist metaphysics, that the only possible alternative to some kind of supernatural "swoon" hypothesis (Jesus resurrection was merely a resuscitation), was that Jesus was merely a spirit, vision or delusion, without a bodily form. But that's a false dichotomy born of metaphysical presuppositions that aren't necessarily in keeping with the biblical accounts. So what we are left with is something of a mystery that points beyond itself, seemingly towards a spirit that you can touch, or even hang out on a lakeshore with, and bodies that can enter locked rooms, appear as strangers, or instantly appear and disappear.

It's supposed to blow your mind. That's the whole point. That's why Thomas basically says "Oh my God!" when he meets the risen Jesus. There's nothing left to say. Jesus has shattered every other reality in Thomas' mind, and what is left is radical, divine love that has already broken the power of sin and death, bringing eternity into the present, the infinite into the finite. And this shattering leads to the first inkling of crystalized Christian conviction: who else but God could be the source of life, love, and resurrection?

We wrote a contemporary hymn based on a detailed Bible study of this passage, using DeepSeek and Suno. I think it's pretty good at encapsulating the themes at the end of the Gospel of John:

https://suno.com/s/WdZeXulZVQJF3HXj

I believe that kingdom now theology actually sells God short. It makes it seem like all God is capable of doing is changing your mind, and being an internalized coping mechanism.
It glorifies the mundane and accepts mediocrity.
and the only payout of it is... you can feel extra religious.

Jesus is coming back.
There will be an actual new heavens and new earth
and there will be no more death, and no more sin.

I do not accept half measures like 'well sin is forgiven so the power of sin is broken' as a substitute for there not being any more sin, not when murder, theft, adultery still exist.
I do not accept a half measure of "well the power of death is broken by the Cross, they're spiritually resurrected when they die!" Not from the Creator of all things. He says a resurrection, and the apostles say a body like Jesus' resurrected body, anything less is a joke.

I refuse to believe that this is the best an eternal, all powerful, all knowing God can do.
Because I know He will do better.

Jeff Saunders · Jun 10, 2025

Friar Tuck said:
Is it that easy for us too ? , or is John Macarthur correct in saying millions of Christians will go to hell after they die , and then gives his reasons.
No need to watch the entire vid if you don't wish to , 5 or 10 should give you the drift.

Of course Macarthur believes this, Calvinism has its roots in Gnostic thinking.
Gnostics believed that only a few go to heaven and most go to a eternal hell, the ones that go to heaven are those who are chosen by God to have the secret knowledge that he gives to those who are chosen.
So no surprises that he would say that.

Jamdoc · Jun 11, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Of course Macarthur believes this, Calvinism has its roots in Gnostic thinking.
Gnostics believed that only a few go to heaven and most go to a eternal hell, the ones that go to heaven are those who are chosen by God to have the secret knowledge that he gives to those who are chosen.
So no surprises that he would say that.

Well a couple of caveats.

Now that I look closer at the video, and having viewed it I'm getting spammed by AI generated fake John MacArthur videos on channels other than his official "Grace to You".
Now mind you for years people have put his real sermons on alternate channels, but it was really John MacArthur's sermon, He really said those. This sermon does sound something like He'd preach and has preached before.
However, I believe this particular video is AI. Some things would be snipped and put out of context and sometimes full passages generated entirely with AI that John never said.

Now what John and many other preachers who've come out of a baptist background, and yes calvinists especially would say is things like a sinner's prayer does not give salvation, and they will preach as if you're going to hell, and convict you, it's as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, a technique that convicts you and makes you examine yourself to see if you're in the Faith, makes you examine the gospel and cling to it, cling to Jesus for dear life, because they'll seem like they're saying it takes more than God's grace to save, or that faith isn't how you get saved, and then tie up their sermon by stressing that it is faith that saves alone. Ultimately they're not works based salvation preachers, even if it sounds like they would be at first. Now there are doctrinal issues with a lot of what MacArthur says, being a full 5 point Calvinist is loaded with problems (namely Limited Atonement and Irresistable Grace, there is election by God, but also a choice made by humans to receive the Gospel and believe it. The best I can put it is God chooses who He knew would choose Him).

However I'd take this particular video with a grain of salt because I think it's AI.

Dan Perez · Sep 18, 2025

timothyu said:
No, to be remembered

And in. Luke 23:42 Jesus told him , that TODAY you will be with ME. in Paradise ,

And in. ACTS. 10:35 But. in every nation. the one revering Him and is working righteousness is acceptable to him !!

dan p

timothyu · Sep 18, 2025

Dan Perez said:
Luke 23:42 Jesus told him , that TODAY you will be with ME. in Paradise

Careful of punctuation that did not exist in the original scripts. Easy to alter the meaning when applied. He asked to be remembered for a time when it would be suitable to the will of God. He wasn't selfish over the matter like most humans clamouring to make salvation about themselves (like the other thief)

RDKirk · Sep 18, 2025

Dan Perez said:
And in. Luke 23:42 Jesus told him , that TODAY you will be with ME. in Paradise ,

And in. ACTS. 10:35 But. in every nation. the one revering Him and is working righteousness is acceptable to him !!

dan p

timothyu said:
Careful of punctuation that did not exist in the original scripts. Easy to alter the meaning when applied. He asked to be remembered for a time when it would be suitable to the will of God. He wasn't selfish over the matter like most humans clamouring to make salvation about themselves (like the other thief)

Not only was none of those punctuation marks in the original text, but they are even wrong in English grammar.

Kathleen30 · Saturday at 1:04 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
Of course Macarthur believes this, Calvinism has its roots in Gnostic thinking.
Gnostics believed that only a few go to heaven and most go to a eternal hell, the ones that go to heaven are those who are chosen by God to have the secret knowledge that he gives to those who are chosen.
So no surprises that he would say that.

Well one thing is certain not all go to heaven . There are sheep and goats are there not. And who gets to do the choosing ? God or man

Clare73 · Saturday at 3:55 PM

Kathleen30 said:
Well one thing is certain not all go to heaven . There are sheep and goats are there not. And who gets to do the choosing ? God or man

Do goats every become sheep?. . .not in the natural order, which is patterned on the spiritual order.

Hentenza · Saturday at 5:26 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
Of course Macarthur believes this, Calvinism has its roots in Gnostic thinking.

Your theology knowledge is not getting any better. This is patently false and I’m not even a Calvinist.

Jeff Saunders said:
Gnostics believed that only a few go to heaven and most go to a eternal hell, the ones that go to heaven are those who are chosen by God to have the secret knowledge that he gives to those who are chosen.
So no surprises that he would say that.

Gnostics believed a bunch of heterodox crap because it was based on special gnosis. If you didn’t have the special gnosis then you were not worthy. The gnostic message for salvation is one of self redemption like some cults of today.

Kathleen30 · Saturday at 9:13 PM

Clare73 said:
Do goats every become sheep?. . .not in the natural order, which is patterned on the spiritual order.

The natural order is that we would all remain goats if it wasn’t for supernatural intervention by the God. And the very reason we are now called sheep and not goats. Clare unless of course you believe in universalism . Of which their arguments are interesting in their belief that there will be an eventual universal redemption for all humanity.. And if true. Then it still would solely be determined by the God and not by us .

concretecamper · Saturday at 9:20 PM

Friar Tuck said:
Is it that easy for us too ? , or is John Macarthur correct in saying millions of Christians will go to hell after they die , and then gives his reasons.
No need to watch the entire vid if you don't wish to , 5 or 10 should give you the drift.

He preaches heresy, no need to listen to him

Clare73 · Sunday at 11:52 AM

Kathleen30 said:
The natural order is that we would all remain goats if it wasn’t for supernatural intervention by the God. And the very reason we are now called sheep and not goats. Clare unless of course you believe in universalism . Of which their arguments are interesting in their belief that there will be an eventual universal redemption for all humanity.. And if true. Then it still would solely be determined by the God and not by us.

Actually, I believe there are sheep and goats, who remain sheep and goats as they do in the natural order, which is patterned on the spiritual order.

No one comes to God unless they are enabled by the Holy Spirit (Jn 6:65).
All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37). . .not all come, therefore, not all are sheep given to Jesus.
Jesus shall lose none of all that the Father has given him (Jn 6:39).

The invitation is to those hearers whom God enables.

Jesus came to call and save the sheep.

Kathleen30 · 2025-09-29T01:11:53-0500

Clare73 said:
Actually, I believe there are sheep and goats, who remain sheep and goats as they do in the natural order, which is patterned on the spiritual order.

No one comes to God unless they are enabled by the Holy Spirit (Jn 6:65).
All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37). . .not all come, therefore, not all are sheep given to Jesus.
Jesus shall lose none of all that the Father has given him (Jn 6:39).

The invitation is to those hearers whom God enables.

Jesus came to call and save the sheep.

Clare I have no problem with your post 53. Agreed

timewerx · 2025-09-29T03:12:52-0500

Friar Tuck said:
Is it that easy for us too ? , or is John Macarthur correct in saying millions of Christians will go to hell after they die , and then gives his reasons.
No need to watch the entire vid if you don't wish to , 5 or 10 should give you the drift.

Believing is easy. But believing in the "right Jesus" and not the "wrong Jesus" is the hard part.

At the time, the majority of the Jews believed in the "wrong Jesus" and crucified the "right Jesus" (John 6:66). One thief believed in the "right Jesus". The other thief believed in the "wrong Jesus". If believing in the "right Jesus" is so easy, why only one thief believed and the other did not??

Having the Bible and the New Testament, does not change the game. The "wrong Jesus" is simply rebranded and many will believe the "wrong Jesus".

Why Christians make the mistake of believing the "wrong Jesus"? Because the "wrong Jesus" is the one approved by the world. The means that would expose this "wrong Jesus" is considered heretical to be subjected to scrutiny. Just like the Jewish religious authorities who made themselves above reproach/scrutiny.

What if the "Operating System" is the virus, what if the "antivirus" is the virus?! there's no way to tell isn't it? That is until you let go of the notion that certain things are above reproach/scrutiny. Absolutely nothing is above reproach/scrutiny!

Servus · 2025-09-29T07:05:28-0500

concretecamper said:
He preaches heresy, no need to listen to him

Actually what he's saying in that message is close to Catholic soteriology. I remember discussing what salvation entails with a Catholic member here. And if I hadn't seen Catholic in his profile, I would have thought for sure he had listed to and read a lot of John MacArthur. I had heard MacArthur's teching on the subject was a lot like or too much like Catholcim, and then I saw why. Mind that's not a criticism against Catholic soteriology from me.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-09-29T10:12:04-0500

Clare73 said:
Actually, I believe there are sheep and goats, who remain sheep and goats as they do in the natural order, which is patterned on the spiritual order.

No one comes to God unless they are enabled by the Holy Spirit (Jn 6:65).
All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37). . .not all come, therefore, not all are sheep given to Jesus.
Jesus shall lose none of all that the Father has given him (Jn 6:39).

The invitation is to those hearers whom God enables.

Jesus came to call and save the sheep.

You forgot one verse John 13:3 "Father had given ALL THINGS into his hands- come forth from the Father and was going back to the Father" sheep or goats all go back to the Father.

Clare73 · 2025-09-29T11:24:33-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
You forgot one verse John 13:3 "Father had given ALL THINGS into his hands- come forth from the Father and was going back to the Father" sheep or goats all go back to the Father.

What do you think "given all things into his hands" means? It's not about physical objects.
It means the fulfilment of God's plan and Jesus' control of the situation.

johansen · 2025-09-29T12:14:28-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
You forgot one verse John 13:3 "Father had given ALL THINGS into his hands- come forth from the Father and was going back to the Father" sheep or goats all go back to the Father.

Jesus is the judge of the sheep and goats, he was granted all authority.

The goats dont go back to the father (if they were ever from Him at all). They go to the pit

timewerx · 2025-09-29T13:32:11-0500

johansen said:
Jesus is the judge of the sheep and goats, he was granted all authority.

The goats dont go back to the father (if they were ever from Him at all). They go to the pit

If this is a reference to Matthew 25:36-41 the nations are being judged but this can easily on an individual basis.

The nations who helped the least of their brethren is the sheep. Ironically, this could be the welfare states of some European nations as good examples. Some of these nations have among the lowest poverty rates because their system is designed to serve the poor (how you treat the least is how you treat Jesus so these nations are actually serving Jesus and they didn't know it!!).

USA would be a bad example or could be even be a goat. The system aims to serve the rich. Everyone treats the poor as burden not as opportunity to serve the Lord.

Some nations are a lot worse. Wholeheartedly devoted to only serving the rich and powerful at the cost of the poor. Most of their citizens are with it or treats their poor with indifference and the poverty rate is very high.

The biggest irony is that the most Christians nations are also the most goat-like according to Matthew 25 while the least religious nations (excluding communist nations) are the most sheep-like.

Red flag? People will not follow a religion that does not agree with either their "sheep" or "goat" convictions. Are most just following a false Christianity that promotes greed over compassion for the needy?

It seemed so easy for the thief on the cross to be saved.

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