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The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6
- Thread starter Mercy Shown
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As stated above. This passage has nothing to do with salvation or the loss of salvation due to sin.
We must follow the context of the passage (read starting at 5:12 ). The first verses of chapter 6 tell the Jews to not dwell on the babyhood doctrines of Christ, but to proceed on to maturity. He then states, "this we will do if God permits." This is the lead in to verse 4. We may not be allowed to proceed on to the mature doctrines, and verses 4-6 is telling us why. The first word of verse 4 is "for." This means verse 4 is referring back to the previous verse and will explain why God may not allow them to go on to the mature doctrine. The word is "gar"
G1063
γάρ
gar
A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.
Paul is not changing the subject here. He is still talking about doctrine and is about to "Assign a reason" "why" God may not permit them to proceed into higher truth.
Remember that the first doctrine of the 6 listed in verses 1 and 2 is "repentance from dead works." This is addressing the Jews and is not talking about repenting from sin. He is talking about the Jewish sacrifices and laws that did nothing to wash away sin. They were told to repent from these Old Testament "dead' rituals. They were "dead" in that they did nothing to save us.
Vincents Word Studies
Dead works (νεκρῶν ἔργων)
The phrase only in Hebrews. Comp. Heb_9:14. Not sinful works in the ordinary sense of the term, but works without the element of life which comes through faith in the living God. There is a sharp opposition, therefore, between dead works and faith. They are contraries. This truth must be one of the very first things expounded to a Jew embracing Christianity.
Barnes
...repentance from dead works, does not intend evangelical repentance, the doctrine of which is to be ministerially laid, and the grace itself to be exercised over and over again; but a repentance which arose from, and was signified by the sacrifices of slain beasts;
Remember these things: that Paul is talking about going on to doctrinal maturity, why God may not permit them to proceed, and that they were supposed to "repent from the dead works" of sacrifices. Understand that Paul is about to explain why by giving them the reason why such a warped doctrine would render the gospel impossible to save anyone. Jesus is our sacrifice! If such a person were to sin, there would be no more sacrifice for their sin because Jesus is not going to come down to earth, be crucified again, and shamed once again. The doctrine is impossible and will not work. It will not save anyone.
"it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
It is not about your sinning. It is about your doctrine being rendered useless because you have not repented from those ritual dead works. Since Jesus is our sacrifice, your mutated doctrine would require Him to be sacrificed again and again. That is not going to happen. That is why God may not allow you to proceed on to higher doctrines. It just gets worse and worse.
We must follow the context of the passage (read starting at 5:12 ). The first verses of chapter 6 tell the Jews to not dwell on the babyhood doctrines of Christ, but to proceed on to maturity. He then states, "this we will do if God permits." This is the lead in to verse 4. We may not be allowed to proceed on to the mature doctrines, and verses 4-6 is telling us why. The first word of verse 4 is "for." This means verse 4 is referring back to the previous verse and will explain why God may not allow them to go on to the mature doctrine. The word is "gar"
G1063
γάρ
gar
A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.
Paul is not changing the subject here. He is still talking about doctrine and is about to "Assign a reason" "why" God may not permit them to proceed into higher truth.
Remember that the first doctrine of the 6 listed in verses 1 and 2 is "repentance from dead works." This is addressing the Jews and is not talking about repenting from sin. He is talking about the Jewish sacrifices and laws that did nothing to wash away sin. They were told to repent from these Old Testament "dead' rituals. They were "dead" in that they did nothing to save us.
Vincents Word Studies
Dead works (νεκρῶν ἔργων)
The phrase only in Hebrews. Comp. Heb_9:14. Not sinful works in the ordinary sense of the term, but works without the element of life which comes through faith in the living God. There is a sharp opposition, therefore, between dead works and faith. They are contraries. This truth must be one of the very first things expounded to a Jew embracing Christianity.
Barnes
...repentance from dead works, does not intend evangelical repentance, the doctrine of which is to be ministerially laid, and the grace itself to be exercised over and over again; but a repentance which arose from, and was signified by the sacrifices of slain beasts;
Remember these things: that Paul is talking about going on to doctrinal maturity, why God may not permit them to proceed, and that they were supposed to "repent from the dead works" of sacrifices. Understand that Paul is about to explain why by giving them the reason why such a warped doctrine would render the gospel impossible to save anyone. Jesus is our sacrifice! If such a person were to sin, there would be no more sacrifice for their sin because Jesus is not going to come down to earth, be crucified again, and shamed once again. The doctrine is impossible and will not work. It will not save anyone.
"it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
It is not about your sinning. It is about your doctrine being rendered useless because you have not repented from those ritual dead works. Since Jesus is our sacrifice, your mutated doctrine would require Him to be sacrificed again and again. That is not going to happen. That is why God may not allow you to proceed on to higher doctrines. It just gets worse and worse.
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I don't know what you mean by that.
I didn't make up what I said; I read it in commentaries.
Yes I know what it says.
I'm not sure what your reason is for highlighting certain sentences in bold, and in another colour, in case I hadn't seen them.
The background was that some Jewish Christians - who had experienced God's love, saving grace and blessings for themselves - were thinking of denying that Jesus was the Messiah and returning to Judaism. That way, when Christians were persecuted, they would be safe. They would probably have "repented" again when persecution was past.
I.e they had received many blessings from Jesus, the Messiah, but were thinking of denying him and returning to a faith which did not accept Jesus as the Messiah.
Read my post again; where did I say anything about unbelievers?
I said Jewish Christians - i.e. Jews who had accepted that Jesus was the Messiah.
But Scripture needs to be read in context, not in isolation.
Read the first 5 chapters of Hebrews. The author says that Jesus is greater than the angels, greater than Moses, a great high priest and greater than Melchizedek. He warns them against turning away from the faith.
Why? Because some believers, who had converted from Judaism, were thinking of rejecting Jesus and returning to it.
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RandyPNW
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Yes, it's been pointed out before that Judas Iscariot was called a "child of Satan," and yet was given the powers of heaven to do miracles, like the rest of the Apostles. He experienced the spiritual power of God, and had been enlightened by the revelation of Jesus' word.
And yet, because he was a child of Satan, refusing complete devotion to the Lordship of Christ, he turned away at the critical moment in his life, when his metal was really being tested. And he failed the test.
This was not the loss of Salvation, since he was never truly saved. He merely experienced the power of God until he turned away to follow his natural bent towards the Natural Man.
As such, he could no longer receive the truth of Christ, and rejected Christ as a failed Messiah. He had lost his revelation, since the choice for his Natural Man leads inexorably to reject Christ as Lord and Savior.
It is clear to me that all of us can choose either for the Spiritual Man or the Natural Man. When the word of Christ comes to us we may receive his gifts, but not his Lordship. We may reserve for ourselves enough doubt in the ways of the Lord that when it comes to being tested we utterly reject the Spiritual Man for our own ways. (God forbid!)
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Including driving out demons - yet Jesus said "how can Satan drive out Satan?"
How do you know that his was a deliberate and wilful turning away?
How do you know that, as he had heard Peter say that Jesus was the Messiah, and as it was believed that the Messiah would drive out the Jews, he wasn't trying to force Jesus' hand? In other words, he expected Jesus t fight back when he was arrested?
So did Peter - who swore that he didn't know Jesus and even used curses upon himself.
Were any of the disciples - who were often afraid, quarrelled amongst themselves and did not understand, or trust, Jesus - "saved" before the cross?
"Merely"?
He "merely" saw the sick being healed and the dead being raised? He was "merely" chosen by Jesus and, later, sent out to heal, drive out demons and preach the Good News?
How do you know he followed his "bent" towards the natural man?
When Jesus needed them to pray, Peter, James and John fell asleep.
When he needed his friends the other 11 disciples ran away.
When Peter - who had swore he would die rather than deny Jesus - was challenged by a slave girl, he disowned the Messiah.
A clear case of Jesus' closest friends putting themselves first.
How do you know?
After Jesus' arrest he gave back the money and said that he had betrayed an innocent man. Then he took his own life.
Peter was tested, and failed.
Many Christians have sinned, turned away from God and then turned back to him.
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Danthemailman
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You are correct that Judas Iscariot did not lose his salvation and was never truly saved. Jesus clearly exposed his heart. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
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So why did Jesus send him out to drive out demons, when he had already said that Satan cannot drive out Satan?
Why did the Son of God choose a devil to be his disciple?
Was any disciple truly saved before the cross?
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RandyPNW
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Only Judas was called a "devil." All sins can be forgiven if they are not a complete rejection of Jesus as authority over our decisions and choices in life.
It is a truism--if you turn away from Salvation, you never got Saved. You may have knowledge from God and His will, indicating the path that leads to Salvation. But one can follow that path in part without accepting God's full authority over our will.
You may regret the consequences of your choice to betray the knowledge you had. But that does not mean one disinherits the free choice that may lead to those negative consequences.
Were any of the Disciples of Jesus truly "Saved" before the Cross? Of course not. I was referring to those whose faith was deteremined to be eligible for Salvation after the Cross. They were as "Saved" as Abraham and King David by their faith, which at the Cross is confirmed to be equal to Salvation.
You seem to question this process that Judas went through, of initially embracing the gifts of spiritual power, and then rejecting Jesus completely? You seem to compare the failure of the Disciples in temporarily falling away before the Cross?
John 13.2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.
6.70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
18.5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.)
Acts 1.24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.”
In John 6.70 Jesus distinguished Judas Iscariot from the rest of the 12. In John 18.5 Judas is called a "traitor," distinguishing him from the temporary betrayal of Peter and the rest of the Disciples who abandoned Jesus in weakness before the Cross. Jesus predicted they would return.
Matt 26.31 Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:
“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
32 But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”
Luke 22.32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
Jesus distinguished Judas as one who was never made clean by Jesus' word. And it was his inherent uncleanness that prompted his betrayal--not just his weakness.
John 13.10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
13.18 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’
John 18. Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”
Can anybody turn from the Spiritual Man to the Natural Man? Yes, Peter himself did, though temporarily. He had to be corrected, as we all do.
Matt 16.22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
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Yes - and yet he went out with the other disciples to heal the sick and drive out demons, Luke 9:1. We are not told that Judas didn't go.
Jesus had previously asked, "how can Satan drive out Satan?"
Who says Judas "turned away from salvation"?
In my view, his only mistake was that he didn't wait for/believe in the resurrection. Had he done so, he might have discovered that Jesus was willing to forgive him.
Are you saying that Jesus' death on the cross, which he had predicted and which was God's will, was a "negative consequence" of Judas' actions?
Jesus' sacrifice was prophesied back in Genesis 3:15 and Peter calls him the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:20.
I'm challenging that perception - certainly.
Judas was clearly remorseful after Jesus' arrest. He went back to the chief priests, said that he had betrayed an innocent man and threw the money back at them.
They didn't care - because they had got what they wanted; Judas on the other hand, took his own life.
I was also asking how Judas could have been a devil yet sent out by Jesus to drive out devils. So far, no one has answered.
Not that this has anything to do with Hebrews 6 anyway.
I'm asking how anyone can know that Judas would not have turned back to Jesus after the resurrection - if he had lived long enough.
He wasn't perfect - who was? But Jesus came to die on the cross for us, and this would have happened with, or without, Judas' betrayal.
And Judas might have returned too - if he hadn't taken his own life.
You have no idea whether Judas saw all Jesus' miracles, heard his teaching, saw Lazarus raised from the dead and thought to deliberately reject all that and Messiah Jesus. Or whether he believed Jesus to be the Messiah - and everyone knew that the Messiah was going to be a warrior king and drive out the Romans - and, mistakenly, thought he could force Jesus' hand.
It still has nothing to do with Hebrews 6.
Why then would Jesus have chosen someone who would never be made clean by his word and who was a devil?
How do you know? This is what I'm asking.
There IS a view that Judas thought that, as the Messiah, Jesus would drive the Romans out of Israel. But he was not doing that/not acting as fast as Judas wanted. So he betrayed him to force his hand - he fully expected Jesus to fight back.
When Jesus didn't - or maybe even couldn't - but was led away to die, Judas was remorseful, believed he had betrayed an innocent man, gave the money back and went and ended his own life.
What I'm challenging is the very dogmatic view that Judas deliberately chose to reject Jesus because Judas was a devil and had deliberately planned it. Jesus would have been arrested and crucified with, or without, Judas' involvement.
And this still has nothing to do with Hebrews 6.
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Clare73
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Do you think Judas or any other apostle drove out devils by their own power?
Jesus gave the power to Judas just as he gave it to the other apostles.
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RandyPNW
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Apparently you mised it? I was saying that Judas initially embraced the gifts of the Spirit, the knowledge of God, and the ministry. But it was never a complete commitment to God's authority over his will.
At some point, Judas not just turned to his Natural Man, rejecting the Spiritual Man, but exposed his deficient commitment to Jesus' lordship. He retained his own independent will, and ultimately, completely capitulated to it. He would drive out Satan, via exorcism, while he was obediently following Jesus' instructions to all 12, to go out into the cities of Israel, proclaiming the Kingdom of God, and delivering people by the power of God.
But when Judas decided to turn completely to the Natural Man, he turned away from ministry, from the power of God, and would no longer be able to drive out Satan. He had already shown that he was a devil, retaining his own independent will and tendency to reject Jesus. In turning completely over to the dark side he exposed that he was, in fact, a devil, and could no longer use God's power to cast out demons. He was himself a kind of "demon" and eventually became one.
He had the evil nature in him that did not completely commit to Jesus' lordship. I showed you the verses that suggest this. He was called a "demon" and a "traitor" in anticipation of what he would do, having already shown who he was beneath the veneer. He could obey, but he could not hide who he was.
I never said Judas was ever "Saved." He lacked the kind of faith that embraced God's lordship over his will. He only had faith to exercise spiritual gifts that Jesus offered to him. That was insufficient for Salvation, apart from a complete commitment to Jesus as Lord and Savior.
You're welcome to your view.
No. The negative consequence of Judas' complete turn to darkness was the social disgrace he exhibited in condemning an innocent man for profit.
I answered that before, and I've answered it again in case I wasn't clear. Judas could exorcise demons when he walked in obedience in the ministry Jesus called him to--even though beneath the veneeer of "discipleship" he was viewed, by Jesus, as a "devil." He was not casting out demons by the power of Satan, but by the power of his spiritual calling.
It's clear that some people embrace Christ as Lord and Savior, despite their imperfections. It is equally clear that some reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, even if they obey in some respects and are able to do some good as they were created to do.
I don't have to know everything about Judas to know what he was about. The Scriptures tell us.
I disagree. I think it is perfectly appropriate to apply Heb 6. Judas gave up on the only source of atonement that could cover his sin.
Therefore, he had no other means to apply for atonement for his sins. He had experienced enough of Jesus to know he was the source of atonement. But he obviously turned away, not just out of weakness, but out of malice and greed, and most especially out of a lack of complete acceptance of Jesus' authority over his will. The other Disciples did not hold back in their devotion to Christ as Lord and Savior.
God chose a bad actor to display Christ in his act of atonement for the sins of mankind. It is proper to use evil men to show true evil in the world, and to show flawed men in their weakness as objects of God's love and forgiveness. But evil men and weak men can stand on different sides of the room.
Good theory, but I don't know all of Judas' rationale. I think you may be right that he wanted Jesus to deliver Israel as Messiah from the Romans, and fast. But in doing so he rejected Jesus' authority to slow things down in order to bring mercy not just to Israel but also to the Romans.
Again, this is a lack of commitment to Jesus' authority. Judas could've been forgiven if he was less committed to his own authority over his will than Jesus' authority over his will.
Scriptures indicate Jesus knew in advance who Judas was. It doesn't explain how this came to be.
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Of course he did.
But why would he have given hat power to a devil?
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Jesus was the Son of God.
He didn't need to appoint a "devil" as a disciple to prove that.
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RandyPNW
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I disagree. Whatever Jesus did he did for us. And he said we have to prove we are children of God by being good, and not just doing good. To "be good" we have to be good consistently, in good times and bad times, when confronted with evil or living in a paradise like Job did initially.
James 1.17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Matt 5.44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Who am I to listen to--to Jesus or to you? Jesus said we must be confronted with evil and to show God's love to them. Just as God sends rain on the unrighteous we must also pray for those who persecute us.
We are not to be like "shifting shadows," good when it is convenient, and bad when we don't get our own way. We are to be the "light of the world," always showing God's virtues in good times and in bad times.
1 Cor 4.This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.
Heb 4. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
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Danthemailman
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In Matthew 10:1, we also see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost.
John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' The other disciples were clean (saved) but not Judas. (John 13:10-11)
What does scripture say about Judas Iscariot?
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.. John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean. John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.. John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus.. John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor.. Luke 6:16
Judas was a betrayer.. Multiple verses.
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor.. John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin.. John 19:11
Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.. John 13:2
Judas was entered by Satan.. Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself.. Matthew 27:5
Judas' habitation to be desolate.. Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25
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Not initially.
He appointed 12 disciples that they might be with him, go out and preach and have the power to cast out demons, Mark 3:14-15.
Jesus taught his disciples more than he taught the crowds. He explained parables and teaching to them that he didn't tell others, Mark 4:10-11, Mark 4:34, Luke 12:1. The sermon on the mount was spoken to the disciples, Matthew 5:1-2.
Jesus had many disciples - in John 6:66 a lot of them left him. But the 12 were his closest followers.
HE didn't have to prove he was the Son of God, God spoke at Jesus' baptism, transfiguration and on one other occasion to declare this. On the latter occasion Jesus said, "this voice was for your benefit, not mine", John 12:30.
Jesus wasn't good when confronted with demons. He didn't invite them to have fellowship with him; he drove them out.
If you mean that Jesus set us an example and practiced what he preached; agreed. But he didn't need to appoint a devil to be one of his closest disciples to prove that.
Jesus showed that he loved his enemies by going to the cross for us - we, who hated God and were far from him, were reconciled to God by Jesus.
Jesus forgave his enemies when they flogged him and he did not retaliate, when he could have called down 12 legions of angels to help him, but did not and when prayed, "Father, forgive them ...".
Jesus showed that God cared for the unclean, the unlovely, the sick and disabled etc etc when he ate and drank with them, and healed them. He showed that God cared for the lowly when he chose fishermen and a tax collector to be his disciples and not the religious elite who knew Scripture backwards.
Jesus taught his disciples to pray "deliver us from evil", or "keep us safe from the evil one."
He didn't say we had to make a point of searching out evil.
Jesus told his 12 disciples - including Judas - they were to be light and salt for the world.
Jesus is the light of the world. God is light, in him there is no darkness at all, 1 John 1:5. In the NT there are only two states; light and darkness. If you belong to one, you cannot belong to the other. People are either for Jesus, or against him.
How could Jesus have appointed a devil, told him to drive out other demons and said that he was to be light to the world?
The devil hates Jesus, is opposed to Jesus and cannot ever be in fellowship with Jesus. There is no way the devil would have ever gone out to preach the Kingdom of God and drive out evil spirits.
Why would Jesus have let an evil person - devil - into his band of closest followers, just to be able to say, "this is how you confront evil; by welcoming it"? He had enough opposition from the Pharisees, from demons, from his family, from Herod and from people who tried to stone him to death. He didn't need it from his closest friends as well. Yes they didn't always understand and trust him but they stayed with him and were, mostly, loyal.
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Hebrews 6 had not been written when Judas was alive.
I disagree that he "gave it up".
People choose to end their lives because they are in great despair and a very dark place. Yes I don't think he was expecting the resurrection - but
neither were the others; they were locked away in fear.
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Because he wanted to bring evil into his closest group of friends?
Because he didn't believe his own teaching - "when you pray, say ............. 'deliver us from evil'?"
Because he told darkness - i.e a devil - to be light to the world?
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