Darwinian evolution - still a theory in crisis.

Hvizsgyak · Tuesday at 12:50 PM

River Jordan said:
FYI that's not an anti-evolution statement. All it says is they are skeptical that all of life's history can be attributed to mutation and selection, which I promise you every evolutionary biologist agrees with.

You need to show where the scientists who do origins research have said "you have to believe us" as you claimed.

Your claim is a little strange since usually creationists complain when scientists use words like "possibly" and "most likely". That's why it would help a lot if you could post a specific example of what you're referring to.

Looks like one to me.

Hvizsgyak · Tuesday at 12:58 PM

sjastro said:
Project Steve here we go.

Whether this is the same group of scientists, it doesn't say. But if this is how science responds to their skeptics, well, I don't blame people for not believing sciences theories. Such a snobbish group of people at the National Center for Science Education. There seems to be alot of snobbery in the sciences.

Hvizsgyak · Tuesday at 1:00 PM

Hans Blaster said:
You're not mentally impared, right?

Well, you never know.

River Jordan · Tuesday at 1:10 PM

Hvizsgyak said:
Looks like one to me.

Your repeated avoidance of my requests for you to give an example of scientists saying something like "you have to believe us" makes me believe that my initial assessment of your posts was accurate. Basically all you're doing is complaining that scientists have reached conclusions you don't like.

Just so you know, scientists are absolutely not under any obligation to mesh their findings with your beliefs, change how they do their work to make you happy, or take you into consideration in any way.

AV1611VET · Tuesday at 1:24 PM

River Jordan said:
Your repeated avoidance of my requests for you to give an example of scientists saying something like "you have to believe us" makes me believe that my initial assessment of your posts was accurate.

Scientists aren't teachers?

Either you believe what your professor tells you, or you'll fail his course.

This is one of my favorite pictures:

In it, the professor is exercising his right to deny the validity of the formula, based on the interjection of a miracle.

(Believe it or not!

)

Hans Blaster · Tuesday at 1:30 PM

Hvizsgyak said:
Whether this is the same group of scientists, it doesn't say. But if this is how science responds to their skeptics, well, I don't blame people for not believing sciences theories. Such a snobbish group of people at the National Center for Science Education. There seems to be alot of snobbery in the sciences.

Come on, dude. What experience do you have with people in the sciences? (I'm going to guess: none.)

"Snobbery" isn't an issue in science. Most sceintists I know prefer to be addressed by their first names by even their underlings including graduate students. (Sometimes you have to do a bit of "deprogramming" to get them to call you "Hans" instead of "Dr. Blaster". If I don't respect someone I'll insist on "Dr. Blaster", but that is exceedingly rare.) Some years ago I had an office in an organization where our group shared a floor with computer science people and some IT support people. It was interesting that the CS related groups kept putting "Dr." on their placards, where as there we none at all in our group. You couldn't tell the difference between the group leader and the undergraduates (other than office quality).

Larniavc · Tuesday at 1:48 PM

Hvizsgyak said:
I want to have a basic understanding of the theories.

The terms used in this thread are first taught at about age 15 in school (that’s when I first learnt what a hypothesis was) so if the terms are too technical for you that’s on you.

AV1611VET · Tuesday at 1:48 PM

Hans Blaster said:
Come on, dude. What experience do you have with people in the sciences? (I'm going to guess: none.)

"Snobbery" isn't an issue in science. Most sceintists I know prefer to be addressed by their first names by even their underlings including graduate students. (Sometimes you have to do a bit of "deprogramming" to get them to call you "Hans" instead of "Dr. Blaster". If I don't respect someone I'll insist on "Dr. Blaster", but that is exceedingly rare.) Some years ago I had an office in an organization where our group shared a floor with computer science people and some IT support people. It was interesting that the CS related groups kept putting "Dr." on their placards, where as there we none at all in our group. You couldn't tell the difference between the group leader and the undergraduates (other than office quality).

But, behind closed doors:

Misconduct in the Scientific Community

Larniavc · Tuesday at 1:50 PM

Hvizsgyak said:
We all have the right to know what is going on and in sciences case, they need to hire people to explain these things to a certain degree so all (who want) can participate in the discussion.

That is simply untrue. If you can use the internet you’re clever enough to read up on what a word means.

sfs · Tuesday at 1:53 PM

Hvizsgyak said:
I beg to differ. I am finding more scientific people each day questioning evolution or Darwinism.

Whereas I find it's still the tiny fringe it's always been. I base my conclusion on working with thousands of scientists from dozens of countries over the last 40 years while you base yours on reading something on a site dedicated to attacking evolution, right? Have you tried applying any critical analysis to that report? Is there any evidence there that this is a growing trend, for example? What fraction of the list actually represents biologists? What fraction actually work as scientists? Does the institution listed for them represent their employer or where they got a degree?

The Barbarian · Tuesday at 2:09 PM

sjastro said:
Project Steve here we go.

Last time I compared the number of scientists in Project Steve with the list of "Scientists who doubt Darwin", it turns out that about 0.3% of people named "Steve" or some variant of the name, with PhDs in biology or a related field, doubt evolutionary theory. Not 3%; 0.3%. Three for every thousand.

The bandwagon argument is a huge loser for YECs.

Larniavc · Tuesday at 2:19 PM

Hvizsgyak said:
but to the common person

Please stop saying that. The common person understands far more than YOU, are giving them credit for.

What you are doing is conflating ‘the common person’ for ‘wot I don’t understand’. Which is an argumentiam ad ignorantiam if ever there was (if you don’t know what that means you can easily google it).

Do you see now?

Larniavc · Tuesday at 2:21 PM

Hvizsgyak said:
Now let's see if some one can do the same non-living materials coming together to create a living organism.

This happens every day when gametes are built up from molecules in the body or organisms.

The Barbarian · Tuesday at 2:22 PM

sfs said:
What fraction of the list actually represents biologists? What fraction actually work as scientists? Does the institution listed for them represent their employer or where they got a degree?

Last time I looked, they included mathematicians, "security specialists" and the like.
(Barbarian checks)
hmmm... Astrophysicist... Psychiatrist...Computer Science....Physics... Civil Engineering..."Staff scientist"...Electrical Engineering...Meteorologist...Materials Engineering... Mechanical Engineering...Mathematics...Aerospace Engineering...Computational Algebra...

Over a thousand people. But there is a significant number of real biological scientists, too.

By way of comparison, there are now about 1500 Steves. (about 1% of Americans are named "Steve" or some variant)

If someone really wants me to do it, I can go back and see how many Steves with doctorates in Biology the doubters have.
But there aren't many.

Edit: Oh, what the hey...
Scientists who doubt Darwin now have five Steves with doctorates in Biology or a related field. Compare to 1500 Steves in Project Steve, we get about 0.333 percent. Hasn't significantly changed.

BCP1928 · Tuesday at 2:28 PM

AV1611VET said:
Scientists aren't teachers?

Not all of them. If you include scientists working in industry, then a small fraction of them.

AV1611VET said:
Either you believe what your professor tells you, or you'll fail his course.

How many university classes have you taken where that was the case?

AV1611VET said:
This is one of my favorite pictures:

View attachment 368469

In it, the professor is exercising his right to deny the validity of the formula, based on the interjection of a miracle.

(Believe it or not! )

AV1611VET · Tuesday at 2:34 PM

BCP1928 said:
How many university classes have you taken where that was the case?

How many have you taken where that wasn't the case?

BCP1928 · Tuesday at 2:36 PM

Hvizsgyak said:
And it seemed very redundant and meaningless to me back then (some 50 years ago) as it does to me today. It sounds like some say "world salad", to a true science at heart person it makes sense but to the common person, a theory and a hypothesis are just an idea - same words, same meaning. As I mentioned in another post, when I explain somewhat complex topics to people, who aren't affluent in the area, I break it down so even a 10 year old can understand it (if necessary). Science needs to start communicating with the common man world better.

Indeed they do, but that is the business of public school science teachers. The most important thing they are supposed to teach is how science reaches its conclusions. Any science teacher who teaches that scientific conclusions are "a fact" should be sacked.

BCP1928 · Tuesday at 2:38 PM

AV1611VET said:
How many have you taken where that wasn't the case?

All of them.

AV1611VET · Tuesday at 2:42 PM

BCP1928 said:
All of them.

Ya -- and I'm Genghis Khan.

2PhiloVoid · Tuesday at 2:43 PM

AV1611VET said:
Ya -- and I'm Genghis Khan.

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just knew it. I thought there was something about you.

:sorry:

Darwinian evolution - still a theory in crisis.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Raised by bees

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

Senior Member

Crabby Old White Guy

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

Crabby Old White Guy

Well-Known Member

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

My count is a bit shy of the Mark!

Similar threads