Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

fhansen · Sunday at 1:11 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
You again are lifting man above God, God does not need nor does he overturn the will of those who reject Him by force. He does not need to force , he is the master creator and will win everyone over with love, We love because he first loved us, that is how God operates out of love, he knows exactly what each person needs and will keep pursuing till every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.
Gods currency is love and there is not a person ever created who can reject his love forever.

And yet Scripture doesn't say all will respond to His love.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 1:14 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Right so look closely at the description of kolasis above and compare that to what you wrote in the post I was replying to.

The word “Punitive” means intending to inflict punishment. And when you apply the description of that punishment with the adjective “aionios” it describes a punishment that is NOT for refinement. And just to be clear I actually lean more towards annihilation than eternal torment because I believe there are more passages supporting that position and it seems to make more sense to me in regard to God’s character. So far I still haven’t seen you quote a single verse where aionios is used in the scriptures in reference to anything that is temporal. So I can’t see applying a definition to the word that isn’t supported anywhere in scripture.

Aionios describes the duration of something, like the word tall, it describes the height of something, depending on what is being described is how we know the duration, kolasis is for correction, it works till the correction is complete, timoria is punitive, it doesn't have a duration, its punishment for the sake of punishment, not for correction.
Annihilation is a step in the correct direction, but its still does not leave God as a loving Father, just a Father who will still create people he knows he will have to annihilate, people he says he loves, people who Jesus died for, paid the price for their sin, but then will annihilate in the end.
That to me doesn't match up with a loving Father.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 1:23 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Oh so you’re saying that if Timothy persevered in his teachings that he would be saved from a physical death? Because that doesn’t actually line up with what happened to James or Stephen in the scriptures nor does it line up with what happened to the rest of the apostles along with the rest of the martyrs in the early church. So what you’re saying doesn’t actually line up with what we observe taking place in both scripture or what we actually observe in taking place in the history of Timothy’s time. So no, sozo in that particular passage cannot be referring to being saved from a physical death.

continuing in correct doctrine saves you from remaining in darkness, not physical death, if you remain in darkness, you do not see the Work that Jesus accomplished on the cross and you have not , as Paul said, crossed over from death to life, to remain in darkness until you die, makes you a subject of the kingdom and not an heir of the kingdom.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 1:31 PM

BNR32FAN said:
And you never addressed Romans 14:10-11 where Paul says that every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord at the judgement seat of Christ. And according to Revelation 20 it is at the judgement seat of Christ where people are thrown into the lake of fire. What Isaiah 45 is saying is that everyone will repent when they’re standing face to face with The Almighty God and it won’t save them from eternal punishment.

I do not know exactly how its going to work out, but I do know that scripture says every knee and every tongue will, as Phil 2 says gladly confess that Jesus is Lord. Its true resentence not forced or fake, God does not honor false or fake statements of faith.
And again there is not eternal punishment, that is a Latin idea not from the Greek.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 1:44 PM

BNR32FAN said:
I’m not familiar with the word timoria. Can you please explain what it means and what passage you’re referring to?

In Hebrews tomoria is used for those who have tasted and seen Gods truth and then go on to reject it and walk away, after death there is no more chance to get back what they have given up. Timoria is the punishment of them losing their inheritance and there bring part of the kingdom, they will now be subjects of the kingdom, that is their punishment, its not corrective because at that point they can't be brought back in, they gave up that gift. That is different from those who die in darkness and then are reconciled, they were never took hold of there inheritance to lose it.
The Greek word timoria (τιμωρία), often translated as "punishment" or "retribution," appears infrequently in the New Testament but carries significant theological weight when it does. Its usage reflects divine or human judgment, emphasizing retribution or correction. Here’s a concise breakdown of its use in the New Testament, based on its occurrences and context:

Hebrews 10:29: The only explicit use of timoria in the New Testament is found here. The verse states (in the NIV): "How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished (timoria) who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
- Context: The author of Hebrews is discussing the severity of apostasy—deliberately rejecting Christ after receiving knowledge of the truth. Timoria here refers to divine punishment, likely eternal in scope, for those who willfully reject God's grace. It underscores the seriousness of turning away from the new covenant, contrasting it with the lesser punishments under the Mosaic Law (e.g., for disobedience, which led to physical death). The term suggests a retributive, just consequence administered by God.
Related Usage and Distinction: While timoria itself appears only once, it’s worth noting its distinction from another Greek term, kolasis (κόλασις), also translated as "punishment" (e.g., Matthew 25:46). Scholars often note that timoria emphasizes retribution or vengeance, while kolasis can imply corrective or disciplinary punishment. In Hebrews 10:29, timoria aligns with the idea of divine retribution for rejecting Christ, not merely corrective discipline.
Theological Implications: The use of timoria in Hebrews reflects the New Testament’s broader theme of God’s justice. It highlights the gravity of sinning against the greater revelation of Christ, compared to the old covenant’s penalties. The term evokes a sense of finality, pointing to eschatological judgment for those who persistently reject God’s offer of salvation.
Other Potential Contexts: While timoria appears only in Hebrews 10:29, its concept resonates in passages discussing divine judgment (e.g., Romans 2:5-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9), where God’s righteous retribution is described, even if the specific word isn’t used. The idea of timoria aligns with warnings about the consequences of rejecting God’s grace.

Summary: In the New Testament, timoria is used explicitly in Hebrews 10:29 to describe severe divine punishment for apostasy, emphasizing retribution rather than correction. Its rarity underscores its weight, pointing to the seriousness of rejecting Christ’s sacrifice. If you’d like a deeper dive into related terms like kolasis or specific theological interpretations, let me know!

943ms

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 1:48 PM

Fervent said:
It's just another Greek word for punishment, so I'm comparing the possible options the writer would have had in Matt 25:46 and what the implications would have been. "Kolasis" is a word for punishment motivated by something intrinsic to the one being punished, while "timoria" is a word for punishment with the motivation being intrinsic to the one inflicting the punishment. It's mentioned in @Jeff Saunders summary of "kolasis" in post 223.

They are both used for punishment but they have totally different outcomes. Kolasis is for correction and lasts until it is not needed, timoria is punitive punishment not for correction but strictly as punishment for something as apposed to punishment unto something.

BelieveItOarKnot · Sunday at 1:56 PM

fhansen said:
Which is why mine were explanations, not excuses. Knowledge is good. Either way the God you present is not worth following.

Your explanation is isolation, insulation, excuses and a God who is detached and disinterested. Just too good to care or be involved lest he be soiled. Poor thang

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 1:59 PM

fhansen said:
And that's where we disagree, on that 2nd sentence. If all will come, why bother even writing the bible-just herd them in.

The bible beckons, giving us the choice: "If you hear His voice, do not hardened your hearts." "If you wash your robes, if you put to death the deeds of the flesh, if you remain in Me, if you open the door, if you do good, if you invest your talents, if you hear My words and put them into practice, if you persevere"....all with eternal life at stake.

The offer we are given in scripture is are you going to die to self and follow Jesus and rule and reign with him as co-heirs with Christ, Jesus prayed that we would be one with him as he is one with the Father, we are offered to be part of Gods family and rule and reign with Jesus, part of his kingdom. If we reject that offer we will become subjects of that kingdom and become the " footstools " not sit on the throne with Jesus.
This is a one time offer, only opportunity is while in the mortal body,
Those who are in the kingdom understand the Fathers heart to have his house full, so we are given the message of reconciliation, the more the merrier, we want all to come into the kingdom and are working to bring in as many as we can.
All have eternal life but not all are part of the kingdom, most will be subjects of the kingdom.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 2:07 PM

fhansen said:
And yet Scripture doesn't say all will respond to His love.

Read Phil 2:10-11 ( this is from a literal translation )" So that at the name of Jesus every knee- of beings heavenly and earthly and subterranean- should bend. And every tongue gladly confess ( Exomologeo- to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations )That Jesus the Anointed is Lord, for the glory of God the Father."
I think the word every covers all that are going to respond.

fhansen · Sunday at 2:28 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
Read Phil 2:10-11 ( this is from a literal translation )" So that at the name of Jesus every knee- of beings heavenly and earthly and subterranean- should bend. And every tongue gladly confess ( Exomologeo- to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations )That Jesus the Anointed is Lord, for the glory of God the Father."
I think the word every covers all that are going to respond.

If that was the only related passage in Scripture-it could still be argued eitther way but would probably favor your reading. But with other passages and biblical concepts already listed in this thread....you certainly have no open and shut case.

fhansen · Sunday at 2:31 PM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Just too good to care or be involved lest he be soiled. Poor thang

You're only speaking of imagined sentiments-not those of anyone on this thread. He suffered and died for all-and yet not all will care.

Fervent · Sunday at 3:02 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
They are both used for punishment but they have totally different outcomes. Kolasis is for correction and lasts until it is not needed, timoria is punitive punishment not for correction but strictly as punishment for something as apposed to punishment unto something.

Neither one depends on outcome or duration, both address the locus for motivating the punishment. The difference is that timoria is about the desires of the one inflicting punishment, kolasis is about something internal to the one being punished. Correction and discipline can be a part of kolasis but they are not necessary conditions. The duration of the kolasis is given in the preceding adjective, which is eternal. To deny as much is to deny that the parallel usage of aionios is eternal and render paradise only for an age as well.

Bobber · Sunday at 3:18 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
God has said,1 Cor 12:5-8 love keeps no record of wrongs, Jesus, who is the exact representation of the Father says-Matt 4:44 Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,love tolerates all things,has faith in all things,hopes in all things, endures all things,Love never fails -Jam 2:8 Love your neighbor as yourself-2 Cor 5:19 not counting peoples trespasses against them.
I in scripture this is what we are told to do to others and what God is like and doing.
According to Western Augustin Christianity, once your leave your temporary mortal body, if you miss understand what God has done or you outright reject humans ideas of God, He will burn you eternally or annihilate you.
How is this view of God not make him into a God who says do as I say not as I do?
Please no answers of Gods ways are higher than ours, that's a copout.

It's a common struggle to reconcile a loving God with the concept of hell. The core idea is that God's love isn't sentimental; it's holy and just. He offers free will, and desires all to be saved, but respects our choice to reject Him. Hell, then, isn't necessarily God "sending" people, but rather the natural consequence of choosing definitive separation from Him. God's justice isn't separate from His love; it upholds moral order. His forgiveness is real, but it doesn't negate the gravity of sin or the necessity of accountability. Ultimately, judgment validates truth and respects human dignity by allowing choices to have eternal weight.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 3:56 PM

Bobber said:
It's a common struggle to reconcile a loving God with the concept of hell. The core idea is that God's love isn't sentimental; it's holy and just. He offers free will, and desires all to be saved, but respects our choice to reject Him. Hell, then, isn't necessarily God "sending" people, but rather the natural consequence of choosing definitive separation from Him. God's justice isn't separate from His love; it upholds moral order. His forgiveness is real, but it doesn't negate the gravity of sin or the necessity of accountability. Ultimately, judgment validates truth and respects human dignity by allowing choices to have eternal weight.

You have defined the Western Tradition well, its just for me I can no longer follow that Tradition. I follow the Tradition of the early church fathers like Gregory of Nyssa, his interpretation of Greek scriptures differs from the Latin that Western Tradition is derived from. I am a firm believer in Apokatastasis , and now follow the paths of some of the early church fathers.

truthuprootsevil · Sunday at 4:00 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
God has said,1 Cor 12:5-8 love keeps no record of wrongs, Jesus, who is the exact representation of the Father says-Matt 4:44 Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,love tolerates all things,has faith in all things,hopes in all things, endures all things,Love never fails -Jam 2:8 Love your neighbor as yourself-2 Cor 5:19 not counting peoples trespasses against them.
I in scripture this is what we are told to do to others and what God is like and doing.
According to Western Augustin Christianity, once your leave your temporary mortal body, if you miss understand what God has done or you outright reject humans ideas of God, He will burn you eternally or annihilate you.
How is this view of God not make him into a God who says do as I say not as I do?
Please no answers of Gods ways are higher than ours, that's a copout.

We as humans can't do what God does. He is a supernatural entity with supernatural powers that humans do not have. He is the creator who created everything from nothing, no human can accomplish that.

He tells us our thoughts are not his thoughts are ways are not his ways.

Can we kill each other yes we can, do we kill each other yes we do. Do we have jealousies, vengefulness, wrath, and all the undesirable human traits as well is love, honor, charity, patience as well as the other desirable human traits. God explains himself in the same manner, we have the same traits as he does.

The difference is what we do we suffer the repercussions not only while we live upon this Earth but in judgment.
And if we were to be obedient and live life with love for one another and I mean true love there would be no repercussions because there would be none of the undesirable traits working among Us.

And yes we are to do as he say, which is showing obedience, which displays love. And disobedience he will not allow again in his kingdoms. Not to do as he do when he says vengeance is mine / when we execute vengeance we suffer the repercussions, he doesn't.

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 4:12 PM

Fervent said:
Neither one depends on outcome or duration, both address the locus for motivating the punishment. The difference is that timoria is about the desires of the one inflicting punishment, kolasis is about something internal to the one being punished. Correction and discipline can be a part of kolasis but they are not necessary conditions. The duration of the kolasis is given in the preceding adjective, which is eternal. To deny as much is to deny that the parallel usage of aionios is eternal and render paradise only for an age as well.

You are following well in Augustines Tradition and making the same mistakes he made, he refused to use the Greek and only used the Latin translation, which was not a good translation, the Greek speakers of the time tried to show him his error and they would be banished and some killed. The eternal translation of aionios comes from the bad translation from the Latin, The Greek speakers were trying to correct his error but he would not listen. That is the Tradition that morphed into the Catholic Church, Martin and Luther left the Catholic Church but did not take the Cathlic Church out of them, and that is why you have eternal in most of the English translation. I personally use a more literal translation and eternal is not in there or very little if at all.
So we read scripture from a different lens and the discussion keeps going round and round.

Fervent · Sunday at 4:14 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
You are following well in Augustines Tradition and making the same mistakes he made, he refused to use the Greek and only used the Latin translation, which was not a good translation, the Greek speakers of the time tried to show him his error and they would be banished and some killed. The eternal translation of aionios comes from the bad translation from the Latin, The Greek speakers were trying to correct his error but he would not listen. That is the Tradition that morphed into the Catholic Church, Martin and Luther left the Catholic Church but did not take the Cathlic Church out of them, and that is why you have eternal in most of the English translation. I personally use a more literal translation and eternal is not in there or very little if at all.
So we read scripture from a different lens and the discussion keeps going round and round.

How is talking about the meaning of Greek words "refusing to use the Greek"? I am curious, what's your background in Greek? Have you had any training in it? Or languages in general?

Jeff Saunders · Sunday at 4:32 PM

Fervent said:
How is talking about the meaning of Greek words "refusing to use the Greek"? I am curious, what's your background in Greek? Have you had any training in it? Or languages in general?

I have no background at all in Greek, nor have I claimed to, I do what everyone else does, I listen and learn from those who do know the Greek of the New Testament times. I am a student, and an learning from those who know more than I do.

Fervent · Sunday at 4:36 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
I have no background at all in Greek, nor have I claimed to, I do what everyone else does, I listen and learn from those who do know the Greek of the New Testament times. I am a student, and an learning from those who know more than I do.

So then why do you accuse me of not dealing with the Greek when I actually do have some training in Greek? You seem to cherry pick sources and present arguments that are from a handful of biased "scholars" that have let their theology drive their scholarship rather than deciding things on linguistic evidence. And then you have the tenacity to accuse others of "making the same mistake as Augustine" by not paying attention to the Greek? Balderdash.

BeyondET · Sunday at 6:11 PM

fhansen said:
The point is that God is inherently opposed to evil, sin, not the creator or author of it. Besdies, I didn't write Habakkuk 1 or all the verses that maintain that God hates evil/wickedness.

God created the author though He forced Himself to do so. For He knew the author would oppose thus become evil.

Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

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