Who is really responsible for Salvation?

FutureAndAHope · 2025-07-12T05:02:04-0500

Calvinism paints a picture of a God who preplanned the salvation of each individual, that the number that was to be saved was fixed before creation, and that the will or actions of man play no part in man's eternal destiny. As stated in The Westminster Confession of Faith:

God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)

The idea (above) of God fixing destinies was not believed for the first 400 years of recorded Christian history. Those who came directly after the Apostles believed our actions determine if we are saved. The Earliest Church Leaders believed in Free Will theology. The idea that we work in Synergy with God, that our actions, either good or evil, determine if we are saved. Making statements like:

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202], Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)

So what am I posting today? Well, I was doing my daily Bible reading, and came across the following which supports the Free Will, argument.

1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: 'I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.' But now the LORD says: 'Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.

Firstly, it shows that God's plan is not fixed, that when He decrees a thing, He does change His mind, based upon man's actions. If everything was predestined, then He would "know all things", and would never have made the statement.

Secondly, it shows there is an action of man's that brings God's honor, or displeasure.

for those who honor Me I will honor

and

and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed

d taylor · 2025-07-12T07:12:07-0500

FutureAndAHope said:
The idea (above) of God fixing destinies was not believed for the first 400 years of recorded Christian history. Those who came directly after the Apostles believed our actions determine if we are saved. The Earliest Church Leaders believed in Free Will theology. The idea that we work in Synergy with God, that our actions, either good or evil, determine if we are saved. Making statements like.

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I am completely against Calvinism, but this is a sad statement about the people who came directly after the Apostles. That is, if they did believe that actions determined if people are saved and that our actions either good or bad determine if we are saved.

No wonder Calvinism and election came about, one incorrect theology going against another incorrect works based theology of good and evil being the determiner of a person eternal life salvation.

FutureAndAHope · 2025-07-12T18:31:16-0500

d taylor said:
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I am completely against Calvinism, but this is a sad statement about the people who came directly after the Apostles. That is, if they did believe that actions determined if people are saved and that our actions either good or bad determine if we are saved.

No wonder Calvinism and election came about, one incorrect theology going against another incorrect works based theology of good and evil being the determiner of a person eternal life salvation.

They believed a balanced gospel, that the cross offers us forgiveness of sins, but how we act in response to that determines our salvation. Although I am not a believer in salvation by deeds (neither were they), I do feel some of the modern interpretations of grace neglect the fact that as a Christian we should have deeds; and whether we persist in them determines our outcome.

Rom 2:6-8 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

There is a general direction we take, either attempting to live God's way, or living for the flesh. These both have an end destination, one good, one bad.

NBB · 2025-07-13T10:32:17-0500

I believe, God choose those who were willing, so yes we can't come to God by ourselves, but neither God sends people to hell by some kind of fate. He doesn't want his humans to perish, and he is light and mercy, idk if this has a theology name.

d taylor · 2025-07-13T10:38:31-0500

FutureAndAHope said:
They believed a balanced gospel, that the cross offers us forgiveness of sins, but how we act in response to that determines our salvation. Although I am not a believer in salvation by deeds (neither were they), I do feel some of the modern interpretations of grace neglect the fact that as a Christian we should have deeds; and whether we persist in them determines our outcome.

Rom 2:6-8 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

There is a general direction we take, either attempting to live God's way, or living for the flesh. These both have an end destination, one good, one bad.

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Interesting in speaking about Eternal Life salvation (the gospel), you only mention the cross (nothing about belief in Jesus), but the cross saves no one.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

FutureAndAHope · 2025-07-13T17:42:29-0500

d taylor said:
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Interesting in speaking about Eternal Life salvation (the gospel), you only mention the cross (nothing about belief in Jesus), but the cross saves no one.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

The cross demonstrates God's love for us. It is the cross, Jesus' sacrifice, that saves us. Belief in Jesus is belief in His redeeming work on the cross. We have faith that Jesus carried our sins to the cross and became our sacrificial lamb. But it is not just a wooden object, it is the person of Christ. The Son of God. So we don't have faith in a symbol, but in the Living Word of God.

d taylor · 2025-07-13T17:50:39-0500

FutureAndAHope said:
The cross demonstrates God's love for us. It is the cross, Jesus' sacrifice, that saves us. Belief in Jesus is belief in His redeeming work on the cross. We have faith that Jesus carried our sins to the cross and became our sacrificial lamb. But it is not just a wooden object, it is the person of Christ. The Son of God. So we don't have faith in a symbol, but in the Living Word of God.

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Not according to Jesus.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

This is why Calvinism (and other theologies) has arose, people simply could not get God's simple message of belief in Jesus, gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Believing that Jesus is who He says He is The Son of God/the Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

FutureAndAHope · 2025-07-13T17:51:27-0500

NBB said:
I believe, God choose those who were willing, so yes we can't come to God by ourselves, but neither God sends people to hell by some kind of fate. He doesn't want his humans to perish, and he is light and mercy, idk if this has a theology name.

Have to admit I don't know a lot of theological terms, so I would not know where your theology fits. But you said, "but neither God sends people to hell by some kind of fate", so you are not a Calvinist.

The Early Church would agree with you on that point. They believed that God gives is good will to all people, that there are not two different natures, that man is a man of the devil by his own choice, not by God's choice.

FutureAndAHope · 2025-07-13T17:56:44-0500

d taylor said:
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Not according to Jesus.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

This is why Calvinism (and other theologies) has arose, people simply could not get God's simple message of belief in Jesus, gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Believing that Jesus is who He says He is The Son of God/the Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

I don't understand how you can separate belief in Jesus from His work on the cross. Paul states:

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Could you explain how you believe a person is saved? What right do you have to eternal life that I somehow don't have?

d taylor · 2025-07-13T18:17:23-0500

FutureAndAHope said:
I don't understand how you can separate belief in Jesus from His work on the cross. Paul states:

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Could you explain how you believe a person is saved? What right do you have to eternal life that I somehow don't have?

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I do not use the word saved, even though it is used sometimes in The Bible. I use what The Gospel of John uses and that is believing in Jesus to receive Eternal Life or Everlasting life.

It is simple, belief in Jesus believing what Jesus states in John 11. That Jesus is who he says He is The Son of God/the Messiah, the resurrection and the life. That is the name given to people to believe about Jesus to receive Eternal Life.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Fervent · 2025-07-13T18:40:53-0500

d taylor said:
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Interesting in speaking about Eternal Life salvation (the gospel), you only mention the cross (nothing about belief in Jesus), but the cross saves no one.

Typically, when someone summarizes salvation by referencing the cross they are using synechdoche and referring to a part to stand in for the whole. Kind of like if someone gets a new car and says "Come check out my new wheels!" or a rancher refers to his cattle as "head" or a detachment of soldiers are referred to as "shields" or "swords".

d taylor · 2025-07-13T20:39:53-0500

Fervent said:
Typically, when someone summarizes salvation by referencing the cross they are using synechdoche and referring to a part to stand in for the whole. Kind of like if someone gets a new car and says "Come check out my new wheels!" or a rancher refers to his cattle as "head" or a detachment of soldiers are referred to as "shields" or "swords".

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Well that can be very misleading in the presence of unbelievers. Why focus on the death and not the Person who defeated death. Because if you want to also defeat death, a person must believe in the only Person who has defeated death.

You would think that if people are going to focus on the events of Jesus and not on the person of Jesus, they would at least focus on the resurrection and not the death.

FutureAndAHope · 2025-07-13T20:42:28-0500

d taylor said:
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I do not use the word saved, even though it is used sometimes in The Bible. I use what The Gospel of John uses and that is believing in Jesus to receive Eternal Life or Everlasting life.

It is simple, belief in Jesus believing what Jesus states in John 11. That Jesus is who he says He is The Son of God/the Messiah, the resurrection and the life. That is the name given to people to believe about Jesus to receive Eternal Life.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

What about the issue of sin? Is that important to your belief? Does your belief motivate you to turn from sin, and does the cross cover you if you stumble?

Jas 2:19-20 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Fervent · 2025-07-13T20:44:15-0500

d taylor said:
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Well that can be very misleading in the presence of unbelievers. Why focus on the death and not the Person who defeated death. Because if you want to also defeat death, a person must believe in the only Person who has defeated death.

Blame Paul, as he's the one who regularly used the cross in that manner.

d taylor said:
You would think that if people are going to focus on the events of Jesus and not on the person of Jesus, they would at least focus on the resurrection and not the death.

I agree, though there is Biblical precedent for focusing on the cross in part because it is the offense that God has deemed worthy to create the path to salvation through.

d taylor · 2025-07-13T21:02:53-0500

Fervent said:
Blame Paul, as he's the one who regularly used the cross in that manner.

I agree, though there is Biblical precedent for focusing on the cross in part because it is the offense that God has deemed worthy to create the path to salvation through.

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But Paul uses it to point to Jesus, so a person may believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. He does not stop at the cross. Plus verses like 1 Corinthians 2:2, he is not addressing unbelievers, but believers.

d taylor · 2025-07-13T21:05:26-0500

FutureAndAHope said:
What about the issue of sin? Is that important to your belief? Does your belief motivate you to turn from sin, and does the cross cover you if you stumble?

Jas 2:19-20 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

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What about it, Jesus has taken care of that issue and closed the door. The only condition God gives to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is belief in Jesus.

The focusing on sin is a Calvinist belief (plus other theologies) as they do not believe Jesus has taken away the sin of the world. But only the sin of the elect, they are very much a repent of your sins, as part of a salvation (eternal life0 message.

Fervent · 2025-07-13T21:07:11-0500

d taylor said:
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But Paul uses it to point to Jesus, so a person may believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

Paul's specific usages aren't fully relevant, as Paul serves as a pattern for many Christians and has shaped the manner in which we speak especially about the gospel.

d taylor said:
He does not stop at the cross. Plus verses like 1 Corinthians 2:2, he is not addressing unbelievers, but believers.

Its not that he stops at the cross, but that he frequently speaks of "the cross of Christ" as a synecdoche for the entire salvific mission and in many places puts an emphasis on the cross such as "preaching the foolishness of the cross." So Christians who have been instructed in Paul's thoughts pick up many of his shorthand habits and these things become a bit of Christianese...it's true that when explaining to those outside it is important for us not to let the message get lost in such Christianese, but that's a different topic.

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