Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

A New Dawn · Tuesday at 12:05 PM

fhansen said:
People often tend to elevate Adam and Eve to near mythical or divine status, but that's not quite the case either: they shared the same human nature as we all do, they were limited in freedom, power, knowledge, intelligence, and wisdom compared to God. They were finite, created beings. They were certainly advantaged; however, they possessed innocence, they knew God directly, still possessing the basic knowledge of God that we’re now born without, they were free from concupiscence, naturally having self-control. They were gifted with an innate holiness proper to human beings. And they were destined to live forever. But they did not choose this state of being, and they were obviously quite capable of making foolish choices, which they did.

A question begging to be asked: Did Adam and Eve love God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength? And, if that question is answered rightly, we’ll better understand the bible, the gospel, and why Jesus came. There was something still missing in man, something that only he could provide even if grace is absolutely essential in his obtaining it. He must choose grace; he must choose God, and that’s the very reason, which may seem ironic, that man was cast into a relatively godless world, the world Adam chose, in effect, where he could be his own “god”. A world that appears to end in death/annihilation, a world where good and evil, the good of God’s creation along with the sin of man’s creation, sin made possible by man’s complete freedom from Him now, are literally known, or experienced, daily. That's the "advantage" we have now-and it's a real one-so that man might figure out-with struggle-that something very vital is missing when he says “no” to God. We’re here to have a “yes” cultivated within us. A yes that begins with faith and is intended to blossom into full-blown love, something that A & E lacked, something- the only thing- that would’ve precluded and prevented their disobedience altogether.

That’s where man’s full-true justice, righteousness, and purpose lie, in the simple fulfilment of the greatest commandment, not without the second greatest commandment that accompanies it.

I think you are underestimating who they were to suit your theology. They walked and talked with God. They were sin-free till tempted by the snake. They were not finite until they sinned. They were the pinnacle of God’s creation. Created in the image of God. And yet they sinned, even with all that going on they sinned. We don’t have all that going on, we have no hope of getting it, either, unless, and until, God works on our heart, turning it from stone to flesh, redeeming us. Only then can we choose with a free will, because until then our heart is as stone, choosing only to be in rebellion to God.

fhansen · Tuesday at 12:40 PM

A New Dawn said:
I think you are underestimating who they were to suit your theology. They walked and talked with God. They were sin-free till tempted by the snake. They were not finite until they sinned. They were the pinnacle of God’s creation. Created in the image of God. And yet they sinned, even with all that going on they sinned. We don’t have all that going on, we have no hope of getting it, either, unless, and until, God works on our heart, turning it from stone to flesh, redeeming us. Only then can we choose with a free will, because until then our heart is as stone, choosing only to be in rebellion to God.

Ok. I think you overestimate them, to some extent anyway. And we're all made in the image of God even if that image has been blurred, dimmed, obscured by the Fall. The real point is that, yes, we still have a choice, and that’s why we’re here, and that’s why all the human drama and misery and joy and struggle and pain, etc, down through the centuries has been here-because God is patient in helping us, by His revelation and grace, to make that choice. He could’ve just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest if that’s His only ultimate purpose in all this. But, again, he’s not interested in automatons. We’re not just irrational, morally unaccountable beasts. He doesn’t just blast us one day with regeneration; He urges, He informs, He enlightens, He prompts and appeals to and draws and calls us to Himself. And when we come, when we say yes, He’s immensely pleased, because we could do otherwise.

By experience, alone, a believer should come to know that faith can be tenuous, especially to begin with, and that faith is both a gift and a choice, and that it grows as we express and invest and exercise that gift. And love is the ultimate choice. It cannot even be love, the real thing, unless it’s a choice, in fact. And the stronger that choice, the stronger will be our love. It all begins with Him, so the first choice is for man to turn back to Him; 'we love Him because He first loved us'. And then that love is meant to take root and blossom. Beginning in Eden already, from the big picture, that’s been the plan for man. The Fall was just one stepping stone, so to speak, on the path of man to Christ, our created destiny.

Anyway, we’re spinning our wheels here, it appears. The one place where I might have no choice anymore is in this understanding of the gospel.

Clare73 · Tuesday at 12:54 PM

fhansen said:
It's always best to have the order right first
It's grace > faith > justifcation/regeneration >

One is not justified before regeneration, nor are regeneration and justification the same (see definitions following).

The Greek meaning of justification (dikaiosis) is: declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, of pronouncement of sin's remittal.

All those of Adam are born guilty of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17, 14-16, 18-19),
which imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Those of Adam are born spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1), without eternal life, by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).
Spiritually dead men cannot make spiritual responses such as faith, obedience.
They must first be born again into spiritual life,
regenerated (Jn 3:3-5), by the sovereign will (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit, whereby they then
believe (faith), their
sin remitted (salvation from God's wrath at the Judgment) and, therefore, they are
justified (declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sin's remittal), made
righteous (with the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:14, 18-19), and
sanctified through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

A New Dawn · Tuesday at 1:02 PM

fhansen said:
Ok. I think you overestimate them, to some extent anyway. And we're all made in the image of God even if that image has been blurred, dimmed, obscured by the Fall. The real point is that, yes, we still have a choice, and that’s why we’re here, and that’s why all the human drama and misery and joy and struggle and pain, etc, down through the centuries has been here-because God is patient in helping us, by His revelation and grace, to make that choice. He could’ve just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest if that’s His only ultimate purpose in all this. But, again, he’s not interested in automatons. We’re not just irrational, morally unaccountable beasts. He doesn’t just blast us one day with regeneration; He urges, He informs, He enlightens, He prompts and appeals to and draws and calls us to Himself. And when we come, when we say yes, He’s immensely pleased, because we could do otherwise.

By experience, alone, a believer should come to know that faith can be tenuous, especially to begin with, and that faith is both a gift and a choice, and that it grows as we express and invest and exercise that gift. And love is the ultimate choice. It cannot even be love, the real thing, unless it’s a choice, in fact. And the stronger that choice, the stronger will be our love. It all begins with Him, so the first choice is for man to turn back to Him; 'we love Him because He first loved us'. And then that love is meant to take root and blossom. Beginning in Eden already, from the big picture, that’s been the plan for man. The Fall was just one stepping stone, so to speak, on the path of man to Christ, our created destiny.

Anyway, we’re spinning our wheels here, it appears. The one place where I might have no choice anymore is in this understanding of the gospel.

I get most of what you are saying, and this is not in argument of what you said, but what I believe is in addition to what you said — I believe that God calls us many ways, from urging and enlightening (as you suggest) to full on regeneration, as in Saul/Paul’s experience. But whichever way it happens, it is still God’s work in us and our response to that work.

We love because [Christ] first loved us. 1 John 4:19
And once we know that love, we are His forever.

fhansen · Tuesday at 1:12 PM

A New Dawn said:
I get most of what you are saying, and this is not in argument of what you said, but what I believe is in addition to what you said — I believe that God calls us many ways, from urging and enlightening (as you suggest) to full on regeneration, as in Saul/Paul’s experience. But whichever way it happens, it is still God’s work in us and our response to that work.

We love because [Christ] first loved us. 1 John 4:19
And once we know that love, we are His forever.

I'd only say that, once we're "perfected in love", with, again, our participation being necessarily required in this, we are His forever-because until then we could still reject that love. It's a work of His in any case, a beautiful and supremely good and worthwhile work. Thanks for the conversation-I'm a bit tired now

.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 6:59 PM

fhansen said:
We can never thwart the love of God, only our own. There are way too many passages that make it clear that we can fail to remain in Him, fail to persevere. That’s why we’re instructed and exhorted to remain, to persevere. Once we’re perfected in love, presumably not fully until the next life, then the possibility of failing, and of sinning, disappear. Again, God’s never been in the business of producing automatons.

There are many verses as well that teach that for those who believe in the Son the love of God remains in them. There are also a plethora of verses like John 3:16, Eph. 2, Romans 8, etc. that teach we are saved by the grace of God through faith apart from works. Again, Paul and James are not in tension because Paul speaks of justification while James speaks of sanctification.

In addition, Paul teaches the fate of the believer at judgement time based on their works in 1 Cor 3.

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 3:10-14 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can | New American Standard Bib

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can

bible.com

Why would Paul teach this if salvation is by faith plus works?

fhansen · Thursday at 4:38 PM

Clare73 said:
One is not justified before regeneration, nor are regeneration and justification the same (see definitions following).

The Greek meaning of justification (dikaiosis) is: declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, of pronouncement of sin's remittal.

All those of Adam are born guilty of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17, 14-16, 18-19),
which imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Those of Adam are born spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1), without eternal life, by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).
Spiritually dead men cannot make spiritual responses such as faith, obedience.
They must first be born again into spiritual life,
regenerated, Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign will (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit, whereby they then
believe (faith), their
sin remitted (salvation from God's wrath at the Judgment) and, therefore, they are
justified (declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sin's remittal), made
righteous (with the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:14, 18-19), and
sanctified through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

Quite sketcy, speculative. In any case being reborn, becoming connected to the Vine, receiving a new heart and spirit, are all references to becoming a new creation, all resulting from faith, itself, a gift of grace, that means union with God.

fhansen · Thursday at 5:00 PM

Hentenza said:
Why would Paul teach this if salvation is by faith plus works?

Again, justification means that we're feely made just by God as we turn to Him in faith, made new creations. Turning to Him in faith is an act of justice, in fact, and so places man into a state of justice in relationship to Him. That's what the gospel tells us must come first: "Apart from Me you can do nothing"-John 15:5. That must be understood first. And that faith is both a gift-and a choice-and a continous choice.

Now, we either remain in Him, walking in that justice, or not. It's fairly simple. We must remain in and grow in the righteousness given-that means salvation. When we separate faith and justifcation from actually becoming righteous, and therefore separate salvation from the need to be righteous, then we pretty much eviscerate the gospel.

If I think that I'm golden just because I believe something, rather than I'm golden because of what that belief means in terms of connecting me to the Vine Who, alone, makes me righteous, then I'm missing the point. You mentioned Rom 8. Consider how the concepts flow:

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

Hentenza · Thursday at 5:18 PM

fhansen said:
Again, justification means that we're feely made just by God as we turn to Him in faith, made new creations. Turning to Him in faith is an act of justice, in fact, and so places man into a state of justice in relationship to Him. That's what the gospel tells us must come first: "Apart from Me you can do nothing"-John 15:5. That must be understood first. And that faith is both a gift-and a choice-and a continous choice.

Now, we either remain in Him, walking in that justice, or not. It's fairly simple. We must remain in and grow in the righteousness given-that means salvation. When we separate faith and justifcation from actually becoming righteous, and therefore separate salvation from the need to be righteous, then we pretty much eviscerate the gospel.

If I think that I'm golden just because I believe something, rather than I'm golden because of what that belief means in terms of connecting me to the Vine Who, alone, makes me righteous, then I'm missing the point. You mentioned Rom 8. Consider how the concepts flow:

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

I asked you directly about 1 Cor 3:10-15. Why would Paul teach this if salvation is by faith plus works?

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can | New American Standard Bib

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can

bible.com

fhansen · Thursday at 6:25 PM

Hentenza said:
I asked you directly about 1 Cor 3:10-15. Why would Paul teach this if salvation is by faith plus works?

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can | New American Standard Bib

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can

bible.com

Well, if I'm going to take an isolated pasaage and consider it in light of the rest of Scripture, including Paul's own writings about the necessity of being righteous and doing good, then I'm certainly not going to intepret 1 Cor 3:10-15 as some kind of a license to do wrong, or freedom from all penalties for any kind or degree of sin. I'll say it's a somewhat enigmatic remark having to do specifically with rewards in heaven, which is a subject that is little referenced in Scripture and which I have no personal desire of myself. Anyway, the bible is absolutely adamant that a child of God walks as a child of God's should, or they're not a child of God's. If, from that point, they're striving for extra goodies in heaven and not doing so with the integrity that it requires, then so be it. Someone else can revel in their rewards.

Hentenza · Thursday at 6:36 PM

fhansen said:
Well, if I'm going to take an isolated pasaage and consider it in light of the rest of Scripture, including Paul's own writings about the necessity of being righteous and doing good, then I'm certainly not going to intepret 1 Cor 3:10-15 as some kind of a license to do wrong, or freedom from all penalties for any kind or degree of sin. I'll say it's a somewhat enigmatic remark having to do specifically with rewards in heaven, which is a subject that is little referenced in Scripture and which I have no personal desire of myself. Anyway, the bible is absolutely adamant that a child of God walks as a child of God's should, or they're not a child of God's. If, from that point, they're striving for extra goodies in heaven and not doing so with the integrity that it requires, then so be it. Someone else can revel in their rewards.

Do you think that I would have you go to just an isolated passage? I’m just going one at a time. You won’t address it though which is very telling. As I stated in other posts there are a plethora of verses that speak of God justifying the believer apart of works. However you won’t even address the one that I posted. You know that it is much more than just rewards in heaven.

fhansen · Thursday at 6:50 PM

Hentenza said:
Do you think that I would have you go to just an isolated passage? I’m just going one at a time. You won’t address it though which is very telling. As I stated in other posts there are a plethora of verses that speak of God justifying the believer apart of works. However you won’t even address the one that I posted. You know that it is much more than just rewards in heaven.

I just addressed it. And I’ve already listed a plethora of verses, and I can list a plethora more but it obviously won’t matter. You are not interested in either the whole counsel of Scripture, the teachings of the ancient churches, or the teachings of the ECFs-only your own private interpretation of a limited number of passages supported by novel interpretations from a few centuries back.

As I've said over and over, God does justify apart from works, And it's real justice given, not merely declared. And you must now walk in it if you want to see Him in the next life. And He won't force you to do so, to remain in Him.

Hentenza · Thursday at 7:03 PM

fhansen said:
I just addressed it.

not really. You stated that it was an isolated verse even though it is more than one verse stated in context and that YOUR interpretation in light of scripture including Paul’s own writings (which you dont cite) and then you go into your own rant with no additional proof. Even if it is one passage in scripture you still have to interpret it based on scripture. You did not do that.

fhansen said:
And I’ve already listed a plethora of verses, and I can list a plethora more but it obviously won’t matter.

So have I. If you want more just let me know.

fhansen said:
You are not interested in either the whole counsel of Scripture, the teachings of the ancient churches, or the teachings of the ECFs-only your own private interpretation of a limited number of passages supported by novel interpretations from a few centuries back.

You are not interested in what scripture actually states but what the wrong teachings of the “ancient: churches actually teach. If you want to discuss the history I’ll be happy to.

fhansen said:
As I've said over and over, God does justify apart from works, And it's real justice. And you must now walk in it if you want to see Him in the next life. And He won't force you to do so, to remain in Him.

I walk in it but from salvation but FOR salvation. It’s called sanctification. I will see him in the next life because I believe in the Lord Jesus.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

No works required here.

Clare73 · 2025-07-11T08:59:45-0500

fhansen said:
Quite sketcy, speculative.

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate the error therein. . .without which your assertion is without Biblcal merit.

fhansen · 2025-07-11T09:57:40-0500

Hentenza said:
not really. You stated that it was an isolated verse even though it is more than one verse stated in context and that YOUR interpretation in light of scripture including Paul’s own writings (which you dont cite) and then you go into your own rant with no additional proof. Even if it is one passage in scripture you still have to interpret it based on scripture. You did not do that.

No, you're just re-covering the same old ground that's already been trod. For Scriptural support from me go back and do yer due diligence, reading posts #13, 17, 53, 66, 65, 68, 95, 180, 194, 197, 199, 201. There, I've already done part of it for you.

Hentenza said:
You are not interested in what scripture actually states but what the wrong teachings of the “ancient: churches actually teach. If you want to discuss the history I’ll be happy to.

Go for it. But it doesn't sound like you've read a great deal of the history for yourself TBH. Anyway, God didn't fail at having His revelation correctly received, preserved, and proclaimed for 1500 years until the Reformers came along.

Hentenza said:
I walk in it but from salvation but FOR salvation. It’s called sanctification. I will see him in the next life because I believe in the Lord Jesus.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

If that faith has resulted in your walikng as a child of God should-and you persevere in that, then you'll be saved. That's the purpose of faith. That's why we must believe. Faith is the beginning, the foundation, not the end, the beginning of a relationship, a communion that man was made for and that is intended to blossom into eternal life, including the fruits that lead to it.

Clare73 · 2025-07-11T10:05:53-0500

fhansen said:
No, you're just re-covering the same old ground that's already been trod. For Scriptural support from me go back and do yer due diligence, reading posts #13, 17, 53, 66, 65, 68, 95, 180, 194, 197, 199, 201. There, I've already done part of it for you.

Go for it. But it doesn't sound like you've read a great deal of the history for yourself TBH. Anyway, God didn't fail at having His revelation correctly received, preserved, and proclaimed for 1500 years until the Reformers came along.

God doesn't fail at anything. . .all serves his purpose (Ro 9:22-23, 11:32).

fhansen said:
If that faith has resulted in your walikng as a child of God should-and you persevere in that, then you'll be saved. That's the purpose of faith. That's why we must believe. Faith is the beginning, the foundation, not the end.

You've got it backwards. . .

If your faith is the gift of God (Ph 1:29, 2Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3), then you will walk as a child of God, for his arm is not too short,
if you do not walk as a child of God, then your faith is counterfeit and does not save (Mt 7:22-23).
By their fruits, you shall know saving faith from counterfeit faith.

fhansen · 2025-07-11T10:21:26-0500

Clare73 said:
God doesn't fail at anything. . .all serves his purpose (Ro 9:22-23, 11:32).

Good point. So the Reformers reformed nothing, doctrinally.

Clare73 said:
You've got it backwards. . .

If your faith is the gift of God (Ph 1:29, 2Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3), then you will walk as a child of God, for his arm is not too short,
if you do not walk as a child of God, then your faith is counterfeit and does not save (Mt 7:22-23).
By their fruits, you shall know the saved from the unsaved.

As I've maintained over and over again: FAITH IS A GIFT- but also a choice- to accept and act upon that gift, and to continue to do so. Your misunderstanding is in your belief that God produces Christian automatons, completely regenerated, and saved, all at once even before they can muster, with the help of grace, the real first step- of faith.

Clare73 · 2025-07-11T12:18:27-0500

fhansen said:
Good point. So the Reformers reformed nothing, doctrinally.

That assumes God failed.
It was not God who failed.
All serves God's purposes.

fhansen said:
As I've maintained over and over again: FAITH IS A GIFT- but also a choice- to accept and act upon that gift

Faith is not an outward gift that can be rejected, it is an inward gift, a change of disposition from unbelief to belief, with which change one has nothing to do.

fhansen said:
, and to continue to do so. Your misunderstanding is in your belief that God produces Christian automatons, completely regenerated, and saved, all at once even before they can muster, with the help of grace, the real first step- of faith.

Spiritual rebirth (Jn 3:3-5) is a sovereign act (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit, with which
we have no more to do than with our natural birth.

Spiritual rebirth is into a new believing disposition.

fhansen · 2025-07-11T12:30:25-0500

Clare73 said:
That assumes God failed.
It was not God who failed.
All serves God's purposes.

Ok, so I guess we could say that the errors of the Reformers somehow serve God's purposes then.

Clare73 said:
Faith is not an outward gift that can be rejected, it is an inward gift, a change of disposition from unbelief to belief, with which change one has nothing to do.

Some don't even want to believe-the human heart is the problem-and can continue to be even after rebirth. They can end up being poor soil, failing to persevere. Others believe but fail to act on it. Anything else is an exercise in wishful thinking, not Christianity,

Clare73 said:
Spiritual rebirth (Jn 3:3-5) is a sovereign act (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit, with which
we have no more to do than with our natural birth.

Spiritual rebirth is into a new believing disposition.

John 3:3-5 only says that a man must be reborn in order to see God-it not address the mechanism for how that happens.

Clare73 · 2025-07-11T12:39:31-0500

fhansen said:
Ok, so I guess we could say that the errors of the Reformers somehow serve God's purposes then.

Some don't even want to believe-the human heart is the problem-and can continue to be even after rebirth. They can end up being poor soil, failing to persevere.

Only one soil is true faith of rebirth. . .that which produces the crop.
The other soils are counterfeit faith and produce no good fruit.

fhansen said:
Others believe but fail to act on it. Anything else is an exercise in wishful thinking, not Christianity,

John 3:3-5 only says that a man must be reborn in order to see God-it not address the mechanism for how that happens.

Well, you can count on one thing. . .you will have no more to do with it than you did with your natural birth. . .that's why is is called "birth."

Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Oldbie

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Oldbie

Oldbie

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Oldbie

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Oldbie

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Blood-bought

Oldbie

Blood-bought

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