Taking a step back from that way of thinking and am looking for different ways of looking at it.
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Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.
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PloverWing
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One approach is to read books and experience worship in some different, non-Calvinist Christian traditions. If you're looking for worship that's more liturgical and sacramental, visit a church in one of the liturgical traditions (Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, or Episcopal/Anglican). If you're looking for theology that emphasizes human cooperation with God's grace, you might read some Catholic theologians. If you're looking for an approach to Christianity that emphasizes quiet meditation and simplicity of life, consider the Quakers (or, alternatively, some of the Catholic mystics). And there are other branches of Christianity as well.
Is there some particular aspect of Calvinism that you're questioning, or are you looking for an alternative to the whole framework?
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d taylor
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This website is defiantly the place to go if you want to find teachings that can help you compare and see Calvinism faults and bad teaching.
Grace Evangelical Society
Here is just few of the many free articles they have on their website and youtube site.
https://faithalone.org/blog/calvinism-has-a-box-of-mystery-verses/
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https://faithalone.org/blog/why-am-i-a-zero-point-calvinist/
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https://faithalone.org/blog/bible-study-fellowship-romans-and-calvinism/
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https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/taking-romans-828-30-back-from-calvinism/
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Fervent
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While true, there is a direct line from Augustine to Calvin since the lynchpin of Calvinist doctrine is Total Depravity which is essentially Original Sin taken to a logical extreme.
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Fervent
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I'd say it was from a giant leap in Luther's Bondage of the Will. I certainly don't blame Augustine for the monstrosity, but I'd say there's an undeniable heritage. Though it is one of taking it to an extreme, partly because Augustine's polemics against Pelagius.
Altogether, I think a lot of the spilled ink is because the choice was between Pelagius' (alleged) self-directed salvation and Augustine's immobility rather than the moderate road that John Cassian walked in pointing out that God initiates and man responds, with man's role being passive but not irrelevant.
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Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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d taylor
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Romes 10 is for the saving of people who are already believers and not the saving of unbelievers. Who are told to believe in Jesus, not to call on the name of the Lord.
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I think I was wrong to say 'small mutations'. That was the biologist in me I suppose. But more like 'punctuated equilibrium' fits the bill.
Cassian is under-rated.
Pelagius was wrong, as any Catholic should admit, but I haven't found double predestination popping up in Augustine. Nor necessary to be a completed Augustinian.
By the way, Jimmy Akin, apologist with Catholic Answers, wrote an article on Five Point Calvinism called 'A Tiptoe Through TULIP' wherein he said a Catholic could be a 3.5 point TULIP guy.
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Fervent
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Fair enough
I agree
The thing about Pelagius is whether or not he actually taught what he was accused of teaching is questionable, as in every case he defended himself he was found orthodox. It was only when Augustine and his companions represented him that they were able to secure a conviction. So while the teachings that were condemned are certainly condemnable, it isn't necessarily what Pelagius taught. As for double predestination and Augustine's teachings, I'd say you're correct there with the caveat that Augustine's ideas about the captivity/destruction of the imago dei isn't a major stretch towards Total Depravity rendering all of the rest of the TULIP logically necessary for anyone to achieve salvation. Whether Augustine believed as much or was simply engaging in polemic rhetoric is an open question, and I tend to think that he was engaging in such rhetoric given his rather..aggressive...personality.
That's interesting, and it's not as if the Catholics haven't had their own battle with the theology in the Jansenists.
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The scripture talks about both, so pitting the two ideas against one another results in unnatural states.
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I considered calvinism, it tortured my mind so much that i had to stop the idea.
See this parable, they WERE INVITED, Calvinism would tell you that God is irresistible, but consider the guests here were invited, but refused making excuses, the poor the crippled were humble enough to accept.
16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’
18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’
19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’
20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’
21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’
22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’
23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”
See this parable, they WERE INVITED, Calvinism would tell you that God is irresistible, but consider the guests here were invited, but refused making excuses, the poor the crippled were humble enough to accept.
The Parable of the Great Banquet
15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’
18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’
19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’
20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’
21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’
22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’
23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”
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Xeno.of.athens
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
I do not think I have heard that point of view before. Do you have sources?
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2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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d taylor
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Just look at the very next verse and what it states.
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Paul writes how can a person call on Jesus if they have not believed. So in other words the order is
A person (preacher, etc..) explains how to become a believer (by belief in Jesus). The person believes, then the person who is now a believer. Can now call on the name of The lord (for help)
Romans 10: A Concise Commentary – Grace Evangelical Society
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d taylor
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It is belief in Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. If you do not believe me, maybe you will believe The Gospel of John.
Repentance is for avoiding a punishment from God and it is for believers and unbelievers.
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