Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

2PhiloVoid · Monday at 6:01 PM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You think yourself the better sinner? You must have paid a lot for that theological ego stroking. Romans 3:9

You can put your little word dagger away any time now, Mr. Universal Love.

BelieveItOarKnot · Tuesday at 4:46 AM

Clare73 said:
It is in the phrase itself, understood in the context of the audience.

Using that logic we can eliminate most of God's words as applicable only to whom words were spoken to

BelieveItOarKnot · Tuesday at 4:53 AM

2PhiloVoid said:
You can put your little word dagger away any time now, Mr. Universal Love.

Truthful Christian universalism recognizes that we are all under the influences of an adversary that is not the people. Kind of basic if you actually listened to what is pronounced on nearly every page of the Gospels

Jesus addressed devils in mankind. All have sin, Romans 3:9.

And few pseudo religious can accept their own sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Which is also why most christians actually hate their neighbors to the extent that they promote them to burn alive forever and even threaten themselves and other believers with the same fate, because, you see,

it's not actually the persons doing it, but the adversary within

BelieveItOarKnot · Tuesday at 5:24 AM

fhansen said:
God both enables and demands reciprocity to His love.:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

Funny you cite Matt 6:14-15 but intend the exact opposite to your supposedly unsaved neighbors

Do you ever question how your own mind landed in the exact opposite place of Jesus' command to love our neighbors as ourselves?

Scripture shows us why this happens. It's because we all engage an enemy within that is not us

And we all lose the battle in this present life

Saved by GRACE in Christ with zero merits of our own

Freely Given to all sinners, except for our unseen adversaries, of course

BelieveItOarKnot · Tuesday at 5:28 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
In your post # 60 did you not say "If Gods will were always done there would be no evil in his creation" Isa 45:7 " I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil" God used evil for his good plan, just as he created satan to do exactly what he is doing, God knows what he is doing.

God, by virtue of actually being God, makes all things conform to His Will

And why complain when Eternal Perfection is in charge?

In the final analysis God Is All there Is

The Sole and Rightful Survivor

1 Cor. 15:28

BelieveItOarKnot · Tuesday at 5:32 AM

CoreyD said:
Hence God is in the perfect position to say, "do as I say, but not as I do... sometimes."

It's more likely that every avenue that exists serves Gods Perfect Purposes

Gregory Thompson · Tuesday at 5:58 AM

Gregory Thompson said:
The books opened on the day of judgment are people's hearts. Since people cannot forgive others deep within their hearts (no control over that) they would be judged based on how they judge others.
God remains God.

Looks like the OP is selecting narrative. Anyway, Romans 2:16 tends to solve the issue.

2PhiloVoid · Tuesday at 8:22 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Truthful Christian universalism recognizes that we are all under the influences of an adversary that is not the people. Kind of basic if you actually listened to what is pronounced on nearly every page of the Gospels

Jesus addressed devils in mankind. All have sin, Romans 3:9.

And few pseudo religious can accept their own sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Which is also why most christians actually hate their neighbors to the extent that they promote them to burn alive forever and even threaten themselves and other believers with the same fate, because, you see,

it's not actually the persons doing it, but the adversary within

Dang! And here I've been using Ghost Rider as a mere metaphor............................... :doh:

Apparently, I don't share your particular Hamartiology, so I think I'll stick with the legion of books and sources I have for my outlook on life and theology.

Have a blessed day, though!

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 8:35 AM

Fervent said:
You, so far, have largely been an exception to my statement. Though referring to your opponents as "infernalists" is certainly inflammatory. What I am talking about is the propensity of Ur proponents to take pot shots and accuse those of us who defend what has been the opinion of the vast majority of interpreters who don't try to put their thumb on the scale with regards to God's eternal judgment by accusing us of hard-heartedness of one stripe or another and making emotional appeals involving thinly veiled accusations of hypocrasy for trusting that when God says "Vengeance is mine, I will avenge" that is not an empty promise.

I can't speak for anyone other than myself, I see all of humanity as Gods children and God is our Father, as Jesus taught. All humanity are my brothers and sisters in Christ, most just do not see it at this time but God is not bound by time. Why is infernalists inflammatory ? Do you not believe that God is going to burn most of his creation for all eternity, if infernalists makes someone uncomfortable, did not Jesus himself call out those with wrong thinking about God, with words like vipers, whith washes tombs with dead men's bones in them and other words that made the Pharisees uncomfortable?
Yes the idea that God is going to burn most of his creation has been the tradition of most of the church since Augustine but does a majority of people believing something make them correct? Were the Jews who killed Jesus correct because the held the majority view that the messiah was going to overthrow the Romans and set up an earthly kingdom, with the Jews at the top, that was the majority thinking at that time but they were wrong. I as a UR believer believe that the same thing is happening today, when scripture says, Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it, I believe that is true, when scripture calls Jesus the savior of the world I believe it, not a potentiel savior. When scripture says its Gods will/ desire that none perish but that all will come to the knowledge of the truth, I believe it , when scripture says God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them, I believe it.
Yes God will avenge, no one " gets away with anything" but to eternally torture people, for not getting him correctly while in a temporary, mortal sin fallen body and world that is beneath God, God, as scripture teaches is love, life and light and in him is no darkness, punishment for correction is Gods way, punishment for the sake of punishment is not Gods way, that's what the pagan gods of old were like.
We are to persuade out of love, that is the teaching of Jesus, unfortunately some use scripture to excuse the way they act. Titus 1:13 " This testimony is true. For this reason, rebuke them cuttingly, so that they might be sound of faith" I think this is why some are not as loving as they should be, but on the other hand, I have been called a heretic that is going to hell for following the teachings of early church fathers.
I try to always honor Jesus and try to put forth the truth in love.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 8:40 AM

CoreyD said:
In your OP, you said...

According to Western Augustin Christianity, once your leave your temporary mortal body, if you miss understand what God has done or you outright reject humans ideas of God, He will burn you eternally or annihilate you.
Are you changing that to "burn you eternally", period, because I do not believe that the Bible teaches God will burn people eternally. I am responding in the context of "or annihilate you".
So, can you please confirm.

I do not understand what you are asking. I know that the idea that God would burn someone eternally or annihilate them, both are wrong.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 8:43 AM

Clare73 said:
It is in the phrase itself, understood in the context of the audience.

So what do you believe is the context and how would have the original audience understand it in your opinion?

2PhiloVoid · Tuesday at 8:51 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
I can't speak for anyone other than myself, I see all of humanity as Gods children and God is our Father, as Jesus taught. All humanity are my brothers and sisters in Christ, most just do not see it at this time but God is not bound by time. Why is infernalists inflammatory ? Do you not believe that God is going to burn most of his creation for all eternity, if infernalists makes someone uncomfortable, did not Jesus himself call out those with wrong thinking about God, with words like vipers, whith washes tombs with dead men's bones in them and other words that made the Pharisees uncomfortable?
Yes the idea that God is going to burn most of his creation has been the tradition of most of the church since Augustine but does a majority of people believing something make them correct? Were the Jews who killed Jesus correct because the held the majority view that the messiah was going to overthrow the Romans and set up an earthly kingdom, with the Jews at the top, that was the majority thinking at that time but they were wrong. I as a UR believer believe that the same thing is happening today, when scripture says, Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it, I believe that is true, when scripture calls Jesus the savior of the world I believe it, not a potentiel savior. When scripture says its Gods will/ desire that none perish but that all will come to the knowledge of the truth, I believe it , when scripture says God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them, I believe it.
Yes God will avenge, no one " gets away with anything" but to eternally torture people, for not getting him correctly while in a temporary, mortal sin fallen body and world that is beneath God, God, as scripture teaches is love, life and light and in him is no darkness, punishment for correction is Gods way, punishment for the sake of punishment is not Gods way, that's what the pagan gods of old were like.
We are to persuade out of love, that is the teaching of Jesus, unfortunately some use scripture to excuse the way they act. Titus 1:13 " This testimony is true. For this reason, rebuke them cuttingly, so that they might be sound of faith" I think this is why some are not as loving as they should be, but on the other hand, I have been called a heretic that is going to hell for following the teachings of early church fathers.
I try to always honor Jesus and try to put forth the truth in love.

Rebuke them "cuttingly"? Ok. If that is how folks from so many "Christian" sides see the essence of dialogue, then from this point on, my gloves are going to come off and I'm only going to RAMP UP and REINFORCE my usage of quotes like the following by which to express my new attitude of contention:

“There may be babblers, wholly ignorant of mathematics, who dare to condemn my hypothesis, upon the authority of some part of the Bible twisted to suit their purpose. I value them not, and scorn their unfounded judgment.” -- Nicolaus Copernicus

Reality just sort of bites back like that.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 9:12 AM

Fervent said:
In particular, its your claim

No one is arguing that man's will overpowers God's will, but that God's nature prevents Him from violating man's willful rejection of Him because doing so destroys the man in either case. Love demands that God respect the autonomy of His creation, not simply turn us into slavish devotees. That doesn't absolve us from the consequences of those decisions, and so God must mete out justice...as Luke 19:27 says "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

So the question is, do we try to force God to fit our sentimentalities and emotional reasoning or do we accept what Scripture teaches without imposing our own ideas of how God is supposed to be or act on the text.

If scripture says " its Gods will/ desire that none perish but for all to come to the knowledge of the truth" If one person perishes because he refuses to bend the knee while in the mortal body, then his will is stronger that Gods.
You say " Gods nature prevents Him from violating man's willful rejection of Him" I can find that no place in scripture, did not God violate Sauls will by knocking him to the ground and blinding him? Jesus showed us God is a Father, we are told to say abba Father, as a father myself when my children lived with me I violated there will when what they wanted to do was harmful to them or others, do I love my children more than God loves his children?
If Gods violating someone will destroys them, that's not love, but letting them destroy themselves is love, I do not understand that logic.
God is our creator, we were created for his pleasure and glory, to follow God and be in fellowship with him, that is why we were created. If God sees us going down a road that leads us to destruction, as any good father would do, he will do whatever needs to be done to get us back to what we were created for, Either God is God and will do what he will do, or we are god and can tell him what he must do, you can't have it both ways.
Luke 19:27 is a parable not a statement of how God does things, that is why we are told to rightly divide the word of truth, thinking that the parables were doctrine is not rightly dividing the truth.
I believe that those who believe God will torture his creation for all eternity, those are the ones that are trying to fit God into their sentiments and emotional reasoning and are not accepting what Scripture teaches imposing their ideas of how God is suppose to act.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 9:18 AM

2PhiloVoid said:
Rebuke them "cuttingly"? Ok. If that is how folks from so many "Christian" sides see the essence of dialogue, then from this point on, my gloves are going to come off and I'm only going to RAMP UP and REINFORCE my usage of quotes like the following by which to express my new attitude of contention:

“There may be babblers, wholly ignorant of mathematics, who dare to condemn my hypothesis, upon the authority of some part of the Bible twisted to suit their purpose. I value them not, and scorn their unfounded judgment.” -- Nicolaus Copernicus

Reality just sort of bites back like that.

I hope you did not misunderstand me, I was not saying we should do that, I was showing why some might do that, I believe we should treat each other out of love, we are all Gods children, finite minds trying to figure out the infinite, we will have differences of opinion, but we should not build walls that separate unity, God sees his church as one body, we are the ones who divide it up and fight with each other.

2PhiloVoid · Tuesday at 9:21 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
I hope you did not misunderstand me, I was not saying we should do that, I was showing why some might do that, I believe we should treat each other out of love, we are all Gods children, finite minds trying to figure out the infinite, we will have differences of opinion, but we should not build walls that separate unity, God sees his church as one body, we are the ones who divide it up and fight with each other.

I'm glad you said that because I was just about take a black marker and strike through Galatians 5:15 in my Bible.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 9:24 AM

CoreyD said:
Clare did explain.
Perhaps you do not understand.
She is saying to you, that whereas, you do not know what or who is the enemy, God does, and so, he tells you, love your enemies, because they may really be your brother, but he knows the real enemy, and so he does not have to love them.

The scripture in Ephesians 6:10-13 bares that out.
I hope my post clarifies it a bit more for you.

So when Jesus was being crucified, those who did the killing were not real enemies and that is why Jesus said " Father forgive them they do not know what they are doing" but if they were real enemies he would not have said that?
It seems like you are doing what the Calvinist do change the plain reading to fit there idea. Like all means all with distinction, not all as in everyone.

fhansen · Tuesday at 10:03 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Funny you cite Matt 6:14-15 but intend the exact opposite to your supposedly unsaved neighbors

Do you ever question how your own mind landed in the exact opposite place of Jesus' command to love our neighbors as ourselves?

Scripture shows us why this happens. It's because we all engage an enemy within that is not us

And we all lose the battle in this present life

Saved by GRACE in Christ with zero merits of our own

Freely Given to all sinners, except for our unseen adversaries, of course

Funny how you were able to read my mind and root out my true intentions. Awesome, man, thou art holy, indeed. Yes, we have a register-a copy of the Book of Life, actually- of all those who’re saved so we don’t even bother forgiving anyone else. Good call! Bravo! Well done. etc.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 11:54 AM

CoreyD said:
You are indeed correct, that God is unhypocritical. God is holy - that is, pure to the highest degree, so he simply cannot be hypocritical.
However, the Bible tells us this:

...and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,
2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

Those who don't want to believe what the Bible says, but claim to believe it, would be hypocritical. Would you agree?
Do you believe that those who do not know God, Jesus on arriving will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, and they will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction?

2 Thes 1:9 " Who will pay the just reparation of ruin in the age" this is from a literal translation. The Greek is olethros aionios, this is the ruin or destruction of the age, not eternal punishment.
Yes those who do not follow Jesus in the mortal body do reap destruction, but in the age to come they will see Jesus as he is, once the darkness of this sinful life is striped away, they lose their inheritance but do not go into eternal torture, thats a bad Latin translation.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 11:57 AM

CoreyD said:
John 1:9, 10
John 3:16
1 John 2:15-17

There's more if you want.
You are the first person I have heard this from. I'm being honest.

It's actually scriptural. Not an opinion.
There are hundreds if not thousands of scriptures referring to the world as mankind, rather than the planet, or globe, or whatever one prefers to call the earth.

All your scriptures are from the English which was not translated correctly. cosmos in the days of Jesus was more than just this world, it included all of the creation.

Jeff Saunders · Tuesday at 12:05 PM

fhansen said:
Fortunately, responsible theologians, scholars, etc don't base their whole theology on a private interpretation of an isolated passage or two. If God directly wills and causes moral evil, and then blames His creation for it, then there's nothing trustworthy there to begin with; He'd be worse than satan and heaven should be no better than hell. As it is, God allowed evil, respecting man's will for His own purposes and our highest good, and, foreknowing our choices, uses that evil to ultimately bring about an even greater good in the end. He allowed Adam to disobey. Did He want Adam to disobey, to break His command?

"But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;" Heb 1:8-9

Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves? Habakkuk 1:13

"For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man." Ps 5:4-6

"The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord, but he loves him who pursues righteousness." Prov 15:5

How is it mans highest good that his choice, to reject God and be burned eternally, the highest good?
" uses evil to ultimately bring about an even greater good in the end" Yes this is what the early church fathers, that I follow, believed that God was using evil to bring all to him in the end, it will take multiple ages but it will happen. Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for.

Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

Critically Recalculating!

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Critically Recalculating!

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Critically Recalculating!

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Critically Recalculating!

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