Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

Jeff Saunders · Jul 7, 2025

Strong in Him said:
Agreed.
Although those verses are all NT; I'm not sure they saw God in the same way in the OT.

I don't know exactly who it is who are putting forward that argument. I don't agree with it and it's not Scriptural.
Misunderstanding, doubts and not being able to accept the Good News because of some hurt or trauma, and knowing that God loves you because you have experienced it but choosing to reject that love, are two different things.
God knows us through and through, Psalm 139 - he knows our hearts, our motives etc. He knows if a person has truly rejected him or if they have just not been able to hear the Good News, have misunderstood the Good News, have joyfully received the Good News but are plagued with fears and doubts, or had joyfully received the Good News, had fallen away and refused to repent and ask for forgiveness.

I don't believe he "burns" anyone - and if he were to annihilate someone permanently, what would have been the point of the Gospel?
Why send Jesus to preach eternal life and die to reconcile mankind to God if there's only annihilation after death? We might as well all live as we want - murderers and charity workers, evil people and good would all suffer the same fate. What would be the point?

When Jesus taught us to love our enemies, Matthew 5:46, he went onto say "if you only love those who love you, what good is that? Even the pagans do that. You must be perfect as God is perfect." Matthew 5:48.
Jesus was always preaching against hypocrisy - if God did not practice what he demanded of us, he'd also be a hypocrite.

In this case, that argument does not address the question/problem. There are times, though, when that might be all we can say.
We are finite, mortal beings, with finite minds and understanding. God is infinite, eternal, majestic, all-powerful and so on - of course there will be times when we do not, and cannot, understand him.

Most OT people did not see God the same as Jesus showed us he is, that was one of the biggest points Jesus made, they did not understand God and his plan for the cosmos. I am surprised how many people still do not see God as Jesus demonstrated for us. 2 Cor 5:19 God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to himself, not counting mens trespasses against them. Most in the western church do not believe this, the list of scriptures that the western church explains away or mistranslates to prop up their ideas is long, but just as in the days that Jesus walked the earth when most Jews got God wrong, I believe many are doing the same thing today.

Jeff Saunders · Jul 7, 2025

fhansen said:
Nonsense.. if God's will we're always done then there would be no evil in His creation to begin with. Obviously, He values man's freedom even if the abuse of it results in evil, for a time, until all things are consummated and good and evil are no longer allowed to coexist..

In any case, He wants us to use nor freedom correctly, rightly, having come to learn for ourselves of the perfection of His will. And this is also why we're instructed to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

Those who believe that Gods will in not always done, are worshiping a god of their own making made up in the image of man that they have created. The God of scripture is not some god that cant get his will done because mans will is stronger than his, God is infinite and nothing finite can or will threated what he has planned, if it could happen he would cease to be God.
I like this word picture - God is like the grand master of all time of chess, you have complete freedom to move your pieces anyplace but God will always win, life is like that we can have total free will but Gods will is far above ours and God can maneuver our lives so that even with our free will he will get what he wants every time.
God created us so that we are not whole unless we are in fellowship with him, he will do whatever it takes to get us to the place where we see him as he truly is and when we see him no man can stand against his love, it goes against how we were created.

fhansen · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Those who believe that Gods will in not always done, are worshiping a god of their own making made up in the image of man that they have created. The God of scripture is not some god that cant get his will done because mans will is stronger than his, God is infinite and nothing finite can or will threated what he has planned, if it could happen he would cease to be God.

And I haven’t even hinted otherwise.

Fervent · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Those who believe that Gods will in not always done, are worshiping a god of their own making made up in the image of man that they have created. The God of scripture is not some god that cant get his will done because mans will is stronger than his, God is infinite and nothing finite can or will threated what he has planned, if it could happen he would cease to be God.
I like this word picture - God is like the grand master of all time of chess, you have complete freedom to move your pieces anyplace but God will always win, life is like that we can have total free will but Gods will is far above ours and God can maneuver our lives so that even with our free will he will get what he wants every time.
God created us so that we are not whole unless we are in fellowship with him, he will do whatever it takes to get us to the place where we see him as he truly is and when we see him no man can stand against his love, it goes against how we were created.

Your ability to create men of straw is impressive, at the very least.

Jeff Saunders · Jul 7, 2025

Fervent said:
The part I find most perplexing is the nastiness that so many UR proponents press their claims with. If their concerns are principally ethical, you would think they would conduct themselves with utmost care...but instead they respond with backbiting and disdain with the slightest resistance.

Could you show what you mean by " the nastiness that so many UR proponents press their claims with".
Do you consider it nastiness if I were to say, it bothers me how the infernalists malign God with the idea that he created people that he knows he will have to tortue for all eternity without ever giving a chance for repentance, that is not the God of scripture. Is that what you call nastiness?

fhansen · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
God created us so that we are not whole unless we are in fellowship with him, he will do whatever it takes to get us to the place where we see him as he truly is and when we see him no man can stand against his love, it goes against how we were created.

And yet, He could’ve done that in Eden and avoided all the ugliness, the sin, the victimization, the evil that followed from giving man free will to begin with. But instead He wanted a drama to unfold within which man chooses between good and evil, not without the help of His grace. Because only in that way do we attain to that place where we see Him as he truly is and can fully embrace His love. Or not.

Fervent · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Could you show what you mean by " the nastiness that so many UR proponents press their claims with".
Do you consider it nastiness if I were to say, it bothers me how the infernalists malign God with the idea that he created people that he knows he will have to tortue for all eternity without ever giving a chance for repentance, that is not the God of scripture. Is that what you call nastiness?

You, so far, have largely been an exception to my statement. Though referring to your opponents as "infernalists" is certainly inflammatory. What I am talking about is the propensity of Ur proponents to take pot shots and accuse those of us who defend what has been the opinion of the vast majority of interpreters who don't try to put their thumb on the scale with regards to God's eternal judgment by accusing us of hard-heartedness of one stripe or another and making emotional appeals involving thinly veiled accusations of hypocrasy for trusting that when God says "Vengeance is mine, I will avenge" that is not an empty promise.

Jeff Saunders · Jul 7, 2025

fhansen said:
And I haven’t even hinted otherwise.

In your post # 60 did you not say "If Gods will were always done there would be no evil in his creation" Isa 45:7 " I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil" God used evil for his good plan, just as he created satan to do exactly what he is doing, God knows what he is doing.

Jeff Saunders · Jul 7, 2025

Fervent said:
Your ability to create men of straw is impressive, at the very least.

Can you show me how this is a straw man, back up what you say with your ideas, is that not what this is for.

CoreyD · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
God has said,1 Cor 12:5-8 love keeps no record of wrongs, Jesus, who is the exact representation of the Father says-Matt 4:44 Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,love tolerates all things,has faith in all things,hopes in all things, endures all things,Love never fails -Jam 2:8 Love your neighbor as yourself-2 Cor 5:19 not counting peoples trespasses against them.
I in scripture this is what we are told to do to others and what God is like and doing.
According to Western Augustin Christianity, once your leave your temporary mortal body, if you miss understand what God has done or you outright reject humans ideas of God, He will burn you eternally or annihilate you.
How is this view of God not make him into a God who says do as I say not as I do?
Please no answers of Gods ways are higher than ours, that's a copout.

This is a good question.
God says love your enemies, but God hates people - Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5; Proverbs 6:16-19, and hating people is not condemned - Psalm 31:6; Psalm 119:113; Psalm 139:21, 22.

Is this a double standard? How can this be justified?
By the realization the just as there are different forms of love, there are different forms of hate.
For example, love for one's enemies is not the same as love for one's family.
Likewise, hate of one's enemies is not the same as the hate Jesus encouraged... actually, demanded, at Luke 14:26

So, for one thing, the usage of a word, can totally alter the context of statements.
The other thing is, because God is perfect, and in complete control of his 'emotions', he can rightly consider it a sin for you to do something, that he can do.
For example, God gets really angry, and vents his wrath.
He even commands that we leave the vengeance and wrath to him.

Romans 12:19

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Why can God be vengeful and not us?
God is perfect, righteous and just in all his ways.

Deuteronomy 32:4

“The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.

We however, are far from righteous and just in most of our ways. Ecclesiastes 7:20

Hence God is in the perfect position to say, "do as I say, but not as I do... sometimes."

CoreyD · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
John 3:18 says condemned not annihilated in the English but the Greek word is Krino which means to judge not condemned, and yes they are judged as not following Jesus, it says nothing about punishment.

In your OP, you said...

According to Western Augustin Christianity, once your leave your temporary mortal body, if you miss understand what God has done or you outright reject humans ideas of God, He will burn you eternally or annihilate you.

Are you changing that to "burn you eternally", period, because I do not believe that the Bible teaches God will burn people eternally. I am responding in the context of "or annihilate you".
So, can you please confirm.

Fervent · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Can you show me how this is a straw man, back up what you say with your ideas, is that not what this is for.

In particular, its your claim

Jeff Saunders said:
The God of scripture is not some god that cant get his will done because mans will is stronger than his, God is infinite and nothing finite can or will threated what he has planned, if it could happen he would cease to be God.

No one is arguing that man's will overpowers God's will, but that God's nature prevents Him from violating man's willful rejection of Him because doing so destroys the man in either case. Love demands that God respect the autonomy of His creation, not simply turn us into slavish devotees. That doesn't absolve us from the consequences of those decisions, and so God must mete out justice...as Luke 19:27 says "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

So the question is, do we try to force God to fit our sentimentalities and emotional reasoning or do we accept what Scripture teaches without imposing our own ideas of how God is supposed to be or act on the text.

Clare73 · Jul 7, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Unfortunately for your claim that distinction is never mentioned in 2 Cor. 5:19 or anywhere else.

It is in the phrase itself, understood in the context of the audience.

More familiarity with Jewish reference points might be helpful.

CoreyD · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
That's not telling me what you think. Can you articulate what your position is? How is Jesus telling us to love our enemies but he doesn't have to not a do as I say and not as I do. That is the question.

Clare did explain.
Perhaps you do not understand.
She is saying to you, that whereas, you do not know what or who is the enemy, God does, and so, he tells you, love your enemies, because they may really be your brother, but he knows the real enemy, and so he does not have to love them.

The scripture in Ephesians 6:10-13 bares that out.
I hope my post clarifies it a bit more for you.

Clare73 · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes it is and maybe that's not the best translation, world limits the scope of what God has done and will do, The death and resurrection of Jesus affects the whole cosmos not just this world.
I still have not seen the reference that says world has two meaning like you have stated, I am sure you just forgot.

You got it wrong . . .read it again.

CoreyD · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Because God is not hypocritical if you believe the teachings of scripture that say he will reconcile all to himself, but if you believe that he either eternally tortures or annihilates those who do not understand him he would be hypocritical.
The latter is not love no matter how you try to justify it.

You are indeed correct, that God is unhypocritical. God is holy - that is, pure to the highest degree, so he simply cannot be hypocritical.
However, the Bible tells us this:

...and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

Those who don't want to believe what the Bible says, but claim to believe it, would be hypocritical. Would you agree?
Do you believe that those who do not know God, Jesus on arriving will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, and they will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction?

CoreyD · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Please show me that cosmos, which is the true word used not world, has two meaning. The only people that say that are Calvinists trying to rewrite scripture to fit a false narrative.

John 1:9, 10
John 3:16
1 John 2:15-17

There's more if you want.
You are the first person I have heard this from. I'm being honest.

Jeff Saunders said:
Go online and look up the Greek word cosmos and show me one scholar that thinks that cosmos has two definitions, if you can't do that, its just your opinion.

It's actually scriptural. Not an opinion.
There are hundreds if not thousands of scriptures referring to the world as mankind, rather than the planet, or globe, or whatever one prefers to call the earth.

fhansen · Jul 7, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
In your post # 60 did you not say "If Gods will were always done there would be no evil in his creation" Isa 45:7 " I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil" God used evil for his good plan, just as he created satan to do exactly what he is doing, God knows what he is doing.

Fortunately, responsible theologians, scholars, etc don't base their whole theology on a private interpretation of an isolated passage or two. If God directly wills and causes moral evil, and then blames His creation for it, then there's nothing trustworthy there to begin with; He'd be worse than satan and heaven should be no better than hell. As it is, God allowed evil, respecting man's will for His own purposes and our highest good, and, foreknowing our choices, uses that evil to ultimately bring about an even greater good in the end. He allowed Adam to disobey. Did He want Adam to disobey, to break His command?

"But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;" Heb 1:8-9

Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves? Habakkuk 1:13

"For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man." Ps 5:4-6

"The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord, but he loves him who pursues righteousness." Prov 15:5

Fervent · Jul 7, 2025

fhansen said:
Fortunately, responsible theologians, scholars, etc don't base their whole theology on an isolated private interpretation of an isolated passage or two.

This is an indictment of so much more than just UR lol A handful of particular individuals immediately jump to mind, particularly a 5th century Cathaginian bishop and a 16th century German Augustinian monk and French lawyer....though you may not have had as much in mind.

Good way to put it, though.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jul 7, 2025

2PhiloVoid said:
Did you learn these "simple" steps of logic and hermeneutics in college classes on Logic and Hermeneutics?

If so, I'd go to the registrar, withdraw and ask for your money back.

In the meantime, I'm going to affirm Hitler stake in Hell. And I'm pretty sure that there, he'll stay.

You think yourself the better sinner? You must have paid a lot for that theological ego stroking. Romans 3:9

Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

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