All about circumcision

ralliann · 2025-06-30T13:46:49-0500

Fervent said:
You do realize Samaria was the capital of Israel(the northern nation), do you not? The Samaritans lost their ability to identify specific tribes because they were thoroughly occupied by Assyria for hundreds of years but they remained the descendents of the 10 tribes that made up Israel(the northern kingdom) which had Samaria as its capital.

If they were tribes, why didn't they continue?

Fervent · 2025-06-30T13:48:49-0500

ralliann said:
If they were tribes, why didn't they continue?

Because Assyria conquered them and was very thorough in their occupation.

ralliann · 2025-06-30T13:54:11-0500

Fervent said:
Because Assyria conquered them and was very thorough in their occupation.

Because they separated themselves off, as a distinct people.
From wiki.....
Regarding the Samaritan Pentateuch as the unaltered Torah, the Samaritans view the Jews as close relatives but claim that Judaism fundamentally alters the original Israelite religion. The most notable theological divide between Jewish and Samaritan doctrine concerns the holiest site, which the Jews believe is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and which Samaritans identify as Mount Gerizim near modern Nablus and ancient Shechem in the Samaritan version of Deuteronomy 16:6

JN 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

They were not "lost". They separated themselves.

Fervent · 2025-06-30T13:58:20-0500

ralliann said:
Because they separated themselves off, as a distinct people.
From wiki.....
Regarding the Samaritan Pentateuch as the unaltered Torah, the Samaritans view the Jews as close relatives but claim that Judaism fundamentally alters the original Israelite religion. The most notable theological divide between Jewish and Samaritan doctrine concerns the holiest site, which the Jews believe is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and which Samaritans identify as Mount Gerizim near modern Nablus and ancient Shechem in the Samaritan version of Deuteronomy 16:6

Theological disputes don't change their heritage, though if you want to know the history of Samaria and the Assyrian occupation you simply need to read the books of kings(1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings). Point stands that the Jews are simply 2 of the 12 tribes of Israel and not purely synonymous(though in polemic literature Paul eschewed some of this nuance to address the issues he was aiming at)

ralliann · 2025-06-30T14:49:52-0500

Fervent said:
Theological disputes don't change their heritage,

Separating themselves does. Israel is a nation with an inheritance of their fathers in the covenant of Circumcision.

Fervent said:
though if you want to know the history of Samaria and the Assyrian occupation you simply need to read the books of kings(1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings). Point stands that the Jews are simply 2 of the 12 tribes of Israel and not purely synonymous(though in polemic literature Paul eschewed some of this nuance to address the issues he was aiming at)

Jesus....
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Levi inherited the priesthood and temple ministry..

Go ahead and make up your own way, in agreement with them.

Fervent · 2025-06-30T14:52:38-0500

ralliann said:
Separating themselves does. They have an inheritance as a nation in the covenant of Circumcision.

Jesus....
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Go ahead and make up your own way, in agreement with them.

They disputed with the Jews over which mountain was holy, but maintained circumcision on the 8th day as the Torah commands. So which mountain did Jesus endorse?

ralliann · 2025-06-30T15:22:30-0500

Fervent said:
They disputed with the Jews over which mountain was holy, but maintained circumcision on the 8th day as the Torah commands. So which mountain did Jesus endorse?

So anyone circumcising their children is an heir? And I would argue they do not do so as Torah commands.

Daughters which were heirs, as there was no male to pass it to, were to marry into the tribe of their father.......
Nu 36:7 So shall not the inheritance of the children of Israel remove from tribe to tribe:

Nu 36:8 And every daughter, that possesseth an inheritance in any tribe of the children of Israel, shall be wife unto one of the family of the tribe of her father, that the children of Israel may enjoy every man the inheritance of his fathers.
Nu 36:9 Neither shall the inheritance remove from one tribe to another tribe; but every one of the tribes of the children of Israel shall keep himself to his own inheritance.

Tribal affiliation through children. Intermarriage

Ez 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezek 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

Fervent · 2025-06-30T15:25:43-0500

ralliann said:
So anyone circumcising their children is an heir? And I would argue they do not do so as Torah commands.

Daughters which were heirs, as there was no male to pass it to, were to marry into the tribe of their father.......
Nu 36:7 So shall not the inheritance of the children of Israel remove from tribe to tribe:

Nu 36:8 And every daughter, that possesseth an inheritance in any tribe of the children of Israel, shall be wife unto one of the family of the tribe of her father, that the children of Israel may enjoy every man the inheritance of his fathers.
Nu 36:9 Neither shall the inheritance remove from one tribe to another tribe; but every one of the tribes of the children of Israel shall keep himself to his own inheritance.

Tribal affiliation through children. Intermarriage

Ez 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezek 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

Your shifting of goal posts aside, it is their tribal heritage that makes them heirs. Israel is not just Benjamin and Judah.

ralliann · 2025-06-30T15:35:51-0500

Fervent said:
Your shifting of goal posts aside, it is their tribal heritage that makes them heirs. Israel is not just Benjamin and Judah.

I am not shifting anything. You are the one telling me why people are Israel / a jew according to the Abrahamic covenant. But not according to the law.
For a stranger to become a Jew, He marries into a tribe through the woman. For a woman also to marry a jew. Then there are born Jew's. Like Tomothy's Mother. She was a Jewess married to a Greek. It did not make Tomothy a Jew, nor did it make his father a Jew. Circumcision of his household for a Male stranger and intermarriage into a tribe was the standard.
Samaritans have Separated themselves from all that. They ARE Samaritans. They don't claim tribal identity or marriage into a tribe.

Fervent · 2025-06-30T15:42:15-0500

ralliann said:
I am not shifting anything. You are the one telling me why people are Israel / a jew according to the Abrahamic covenant. But not according to the law.
For a stranger to become a Jew, He marries into a tribe through the woman. For a woman also to marry a jew. Then there are born Jew's. Like Tomothy's Mother. She was a Jewess married to a Greek. It did not make Tomothy a Jew, nor did it make his father a Jew. Circumcision of his household for a Male stranger and intermarriage into a tribe was the standard.
Samaritans have Separated themselves from all that. They ARE Samaritans. They don't claim tribal identity or marriage into a tribe.

You're conflating two different things, Jews a are members of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, while Israel comprises all 12 tribes of Israel not just those two. When forced to recognize the heritage of the Samaritans you attempted to shift the goal posts by conceding their heritage but then claiming they somehow set themselves apart by disagreeing about which mountain to worship on, despite maaintaining the same circumcision practices that you claimed set the Jews apart. So is it circumcision, or the mountain they worship God on, that makes a Jew a member of the covenant community?

JohnClay · 2025-06-30T16:09:23-0500

CoreyD said:
Dead men feel no pain.
Taking the foreskin of dead men, is like taking the sandals from their feet.
It was nothing, other than fulfilling a request which demonstrated that God was with him, and could deliver him, even from an army that would have been impossible to beat with just a few men.
David delivered double the amount to prove it.

Before they got the foreskins 200 men were killed. That part would involve them feeling pain.

CoreyD said:
@JohnClay, is this subforum for debating Christian Theology, or addressing non-Christian Seekers asking questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept?
You'd better take reign of the thread, before it runs "Helter Skelter" into a never ending theological 'boxing match' about the Ten Commandments.

Sorry I shouldn't have been talking about those other things.

CoreyD · 2025-06-30T19:22:10-0500

JohnClay said:
Before they got the foreskins 200 men were killed. That part would involve them feeling pain.

Oh. Sorry I missed the focus. I focused on the circumcision. I didn't realize your concern was with the deaths of the enemy.
Why is that?
What if a million were killed?
Remember, this is a war, and the enemy was actually to be vanquished. Some would become laborers as prisoners of war... slaves if you like.
Why would that trouble you?

A little background on the Philistines
(Genesis 26:14, 15) 14 For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants: and the Philistines envied him. 15 For all the wells which his father’s servants had digged in the days of Abraham his father, the Philistines had stopped them, and filled them with earth.
(Exodus 13:17) 17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
(Judges 10:11, 12) 11 And the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Did not I deliver you from the Egyptians, and from the Amorites, from the children of Ammon, and from the Philistines? 12 The Zidonians also, and the Amalekites, and the Maonites, did oppress you; and ye cried to me, and I delivered you out of their hand.

The Philistines were conquering warriors, and had God not been with Israel, and fought their battles, Israel would not exist today.
War results in pain, yes, but the time to end all wars is on the horizon.

JohnClay said:
Sorry I shouldn't have been talking about those other things.

No. You aren't in the wrong, so no apology is needed from you. As the originator of the OP, you are free to talk about anything, and ask any question (keeping within the rules of this forum) in this sub-forum.

This is a forum where non-Christian Seekers are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christian members can enter into discussion with them on these questions.

It's not you I am concerned about.
I was concerned about the 'runaway train' that was derailing the thread... the debate that was going on around you. Not you.
So feel free to build on, or add to what you started.
If you have other queries on answers given, go right ahead with them.

We recognize that sincere non-Christian seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith.

This is the purpose of this sub-forum.

JohnClay · 2025-06-30T20:30:22-0500

CoreyD said:
Oh. Sorry I missed the focus. I focused on the circumcision. I didn't realize your concern was with the deaths of the enemy.
Why is that?
What if a million were killed?
Remember, this is a war, and the enemy was actually to be vanquished. Some would become laborers as prisoners of war... slaves if you like.
Why would that trouble you?

The king wanted 100 foreskins in exchange for his daughter in marriage. This could have been achieved without killing anyone. But instead of killing 100 people David and his men killed 200 people. Despite this David is said to be a man after God's heart. (1 Samuel 13:14)

CoreyD · 2025-06-30T21:08:43-0500

JohnClay said:
The king wanted 100 foreskins in exchange for his daughter in marriage. This could have been achieved without killing anyone. But instead of killing 100 people David and his men killed 200 people. Despite this David is said to be a man after God's heart. (1 Samuel 13:14)

It's only fair I give you a chance to demonstrate how "this could have been achieved without killing anyone".

Note... 100 foreskins of the Philistines. How could David get 100 foreskins of the Philistines without killing anyone, especially since the king expected him to get them... not from rotted corpses buried somewhere in the wilderness?

Yes, David was a man after God's own heart. That's how he succeeded.
God gave David the victory.

Note the account in 1 Samuel 18 reads...

17 Then Saul said to David, “Here is my older daughter Merab; I will give her to you as a wife. Only be valiant for me, and fight the Lord’s battles.” For Saul thought, “Let my hand not be against him, but let the hand of the Philistines be against him.”

18 So David said to Saul, “Who am I, and what is my life or my father’s family in Israel, that I should be son-in-law to the king?” 19 But it happened at the time when Merab, Saul’s daughter, should have been given to David, that she was given to Adriel the Meholathite as a wife.

20 Now Michal, Saul’s daughter, loved David. And they told Saul, and the thing pleased him. 21 So Saul said, “I will give her to him, that she may [f]be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him.” Therefore Saul said to David a second time, “You shall be my son-in-law today.”

22 And Saul commanded his servants, “Communicate with David secretly, and say, ‘Look, the king has delight in you, and all his servants love you. Now therefore, become the king’s son-in-law.’ ”

23 So Saul’s servants spoke those words in the hearing of David. And David said, “Does it seem to you a light thing to be a king’s son-in-law, seeing I am a poor and lightly esteemed man?” 24 And the servants of Saul told him, saying, [g]“In this manner David spoke.”

25 Then Saul said, “Thus you shall say to David: ‘The king does not desire any dowry but one hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to take vengeance on the king’s enemies.’ ” But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. 26 So when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to become the king’s son-in-law.

What part of this do you find unacceptable, or wrong?

David was poor, and felt he could not afford a dowry worthy of the king's daughter, so Saul saw an opportunity to place on David a challenge he could not refuse.
This challenge not only sought to get David killed, but it would challenged his position as commanding officer... if he didn't accept.
Either way, the king sought to removed the rival of his fame. Either by death, or cowardice, Saul planned on succeeding.
God made certain that Saul failed, and also see that David had God's support.

Again, remember... there is a war in progress, and David is a general - chief over Saul's armies, and at war with the Philistines - the enemy.

5 And Saul set him over the men of war, and he was accepted in the sight of all the people and also in the sight of Saul’s servants. 6 Now it had happened as they were coming home, when David was returning from the slaughter of the [c]Philistine, that the women had come out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with joy, and with musical instruments. 7 So the women sang as they danced, and said:

“Saul has slain his thousands,

And David his ten thousands.”

8 Then Saul was very angry, and the saying displeased him;

What part of this do you find unacceptable, or wrong?

JohnClay · 2025-06-30T21:20:37-0500

CoreyD said:
It's only fair I give you a chance to demonstrate how "this could have been achieved without killing anyone".
Note... 100 foreskins of the Philistines. How could David get 100 foreskins of the Philistines without killing anyone, especially since the king expected him to get them... not from rotted corpses buried somewhere in the wilderness?

He could have threatened them with death then tied them up and collected their foreskins. Most of them might prefer to be tied up and circumcised rather than killed.
Though it says the purpose is to take revenge on his enemies and 200 deaths is a higher amount of revenge.

CoreyD · 2025-06-30T21:35:38-0500

JohnClay said:
He could have threatened them with death then tied them up and collected their foreskins. Most of them might prefer to be tied up and circumcised rather than killed.

Hmm. Humiliate them and make them a laughing stock to their women and the nations that hear of it.
I could see how that would be something the most powerful army would want.

JohnClay said:
Though it says the purpose is to take revenge on his enemies and 200 deaths is a higher amount of revenge.

Not following you on this one.
David proved his valiance, and earned the respect as chief of his armies.

All about circumcision

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