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Inside The Worlds Most Unusual Fossil Site - The La Brea Tar Pits

sjastro

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An interesting post. I live in a humid semi-tropical part of the US, and here ecological succession reclamation-wise happens naturally. Very naturally. It's a running battle with various natural species that spring up where they are inconvenient. There's a progression of species, but it all happens without human intervention. I assume it's due to the combination of temperature and rainfall promoting vegetation.
Here is an AI compiled list of factors contributing to ecological succession based on the Australian ecosystem.

Natural Revegetation Processes Involving Animals, Insects & Others

AgentProcessDescriptionExample Species
BirdsSeed dispersal (endozoochory)Birds eat fruit and defecate seeds elsewhere, aiding plant spread.Emus, cassowaries, pigeons
Seed dispersal (epizoochory)Seeds stick to feathers and are dropped elsewhere.Finches, parrots
Perch-facilitated regrowthPerching birds drop seeds under roosting sites.Raptors, crows
InsectsPollinationInsects transfer pollen between flowers, aiding fertilization and seed production.Bees, butterflies, beetles
Soil aerationBurrowing insects enhance soil structure and nutrient cycling.Ants, termites
Seed dispersal (myrmecochory)Ants carry seeds to nests, where they germinate in nutrient-rich environments.Various ant species
MammalsSeed dispersalHerbivores eat fruits or foliage and disperse seeds through dung.Kangaroos, bats, possums
Soil turnover (bioturbation)Digging mammals loosen soil, improving seedling establishment.Bandicoots, wombats
WindWind dispersal (anemochory)Seeds adapted for wind travel are dispersed over large areas.Grasses, dandelions, eucalypts
WaterWater dispersal (hydrochory)Seeds float and are carried by streams or floods to new germination sites.Mangroves, sedges
FireFire cueing (pyrogenic germination)Some seeds require fire to break dormancy and germinate.Banksia, acacia, grevillea
MicroorganismsSoil enrichmentFungi and bacteria improve soil fertility and plant uptake of nutrients.Mycorrhizal fungi, nitrogen-fixing bacteria
Litter faunaDecompositionLeaf litter is broken down, returning nutrients to the soil.Springtails, earthworms
GravityGravity dispersal (barochory)Seeds fall directly beneath parent plants and germinate nearby.Oaks, wattles


A few comments on the table.
(1) Cassowaries are not found in southern Australia where I live, these birds are highly dangerous when protecting their young and deaths have been recorded.
(2) Kangaroos exist in plague proportions with the net effect of retarding ecological succession due to destruction of the habitat.
(3) Spread of acacias is achieved by pollination with European Honeybees being the main culprit which like in your country was an introduced species. Australian bees by comparison are far less aggressive and a few species are stingless.
 
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Chesterton

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As the Original Poster of the thread, I do get to say if it's gone off-topic or not since I started the thread. That is basic Internet knowledge.

The only one wanting to dictate here is you, Mister self-proclaimed umpire.
Basic internet knowledge is fascism. Okay.
But let the record show that I did answer your questions, you just didn't like the answers and ran away.
Please link to where you answered my questions. I'm still here. I have not run away.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Basic internet knowledge is fascism. Okay.

Please link to where you answered my questions. I'm still here. I have not run away.
( I'm on my phone so I need to reply like this, so sorry if it gets confusing)

Calling anything you don't like fascism is just sad.

The answers were in post #59. The post you responded to with your "Strike three" comment. Which gave me no indication that you actually read the post at all.

(Can't change pages while using phone since it deletes my message. Post number is now correct, I just can't actually apply the link)
 
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Chesterton

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( I'm on my phone so I need to reply like this, so sorry if it gets confusing)

Calling anything you don't like fascism is just sad.

The answers were in post #59. The post you responded to with your "Strike three" comment. Which gave me no indication that you actually read the post at all.

(Can't change pages while using phone since it deletes my message. Post number is now correct, I just can't actually apply the link)
Post #59 is a post made by me, so yes, I am confused.
 
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Shemjaza

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How is it different?

As an atheist, how do you distinguish between the actions of humans and the actions of nature?
As I said, it's concious versus mindless.

Humans make decisions and can be aware of consequences.

There's also a different emotional association between something being gone because it wore out versus someone breaking it.

As an analogy someone is equally dead if they die of cancer or are murdered... but one feels worse.
 
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AV1611VET

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Now, see, I would call that discussion something that is actually on topic, since while it still talks about extinctions, it talks about something that is linked to the tar pits; when they were formed, and why we only find pleistocene animals in it and not older paleolithic creatures in it.

Keep looking.
 
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Hans Blaster

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As an atheist, how do you distinguish between the actions of humans and the actions of nature?
The same way anyone else would:

Was it done by a human?

If "no" then it is natural, otherwise it was "artificial".
 
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AV1611VET

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Why should it have come from me first or at all?

Good question ... unfortunately.

Real scientists look.

They don't just run around saying, we only find pleistocene animals in it and not older paleolithic creatures in it.

Now granted, that may be true.

But in my opinion, they should be saying:

"We only have found Pleistocene animals in tar pits so far, and not older paleolithic creatures yet."

But then, that would compromise the story, wouldn't it?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Good question ... unfortunately.

Real scientists look.

They don't just run around saying, we only find pleistocene animals in it and not older paleolithic creatures in it.

Now granted, that may be true.

But in my opinion, they should be saying:

"We only have found Pleistocene animals in tar pits so far, and not older paleolithic creatures yet."

But then, that would compromise the story, wouldn't it?

Not really because that IS what they say. No older paleolithic creatures have been found at La Brea tar pits.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill because you just want to crap on science and scientists as per your usual modus operandi.
 
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Tuur

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Here is an AI compiled list of factors contributing to ecological succession based on the Australian ecosystem.

Natural Revegetation Processes Involving Animals, Insects & Others

AgentProcessDescriptionExample Species
BirdsSeed dispersal (endozoochory)Birds eat fruit and defecate seeds elsewhere, aiding plant spread.Emus, cassowaries, pigeons
Seed dispersal (epizoochory)Seeds stick to feathers and are dropped elsewhere.Finches, parrots
Perch-facilitated regrowthPerching birds drop seeds under roosting sites.Raptors, crows
InsectsPollinationInsects transfer pollen between flowers, aiding fertilization and seed production.Bees, butterflies, beetles
Soil aerationBurrowing insects enhance soil structure and nutrient cycling.Ants, termites
Seed dispersal (myrmecochory)Ants carry seeds to nests, where they germinate in nutrient-rich environments.Various ant species
MammalsSeed dispersalHerbivores eat fruits or foliage and disperse seeds through dung.Kangaroos, bats, possums
Soil turnover (bioturbation)Digging mammals loosen soil, improving seedling establishment.Bandicoots, wombats
WindWind dispersal (anemochory)Seeds adapted for wind travel are dispersed over large areas.Grasses, dandelions, eucalypts
WaterWater dispersal (hydrochory)Seeds float and are carried by streams or floods to new germination sites.Mangroves, sedges
FireFire cueing (pyrogenic germination)Some seeds require fire to break dormancy and germinate.Banksia, acacia, grevillea
MicroorganismsSoil enrichmentFungi and bacteria improve soil fertility and plant uptake of nutrients.Mycorrhizal fungi, nitrogen-fixing bacteria
Litter faunaDecompositionLeaf litter is broken down, returning nutrients to the soil.Springtails, earthworms
GravityGravity dispersal (barochory)Seeds fall directly beneath parent plants and germinate nearby.Oaks, wattles


A few comments on the table.
(1) Cassowaries are not found in southern Australia where I live, these birds are highly dangerous when protecting their young and deaths have been recorded.
(2) Kangaroos exist in plague proportions with the net effect of retarding ecological succession due to destruction of the habitat.
(3) Spread of acacias is achieved by pollination with European Honeybees being the main culprit which like in your country was an introduced species. Australian bees by comparison are far less aggressive and a few species are stingless.
Interesting. Since I haven't seen a moderator shutdown, will comment that we have similar means, just different species, and maybe speed, the latter assumed to be due the climate. Birds are a big seed spreader, which is how we end up with some grasses, vines, and trees in places. Pigeons, we've got them, and doves, and mockingbirds and cedar waxwings and various song birds and I don't know what all. Opossums, too. I was long prejudiced against 'possums due to growing up awakened in the middle of the night in the fall when 'possums went for the wild persimmon tree in the yard and the dog found them. But then learned that here opossums eat ticks and also rattlesnakes. Those here seem to have immunity to the venom. Squirrels are a big seed dispersal animal here. Deer, too. Really, most of the animals to some extent, just what they disperse depending on the critter.

To cut it short, have noticed different progression from burned-off land and, say, an abandoned field, but its still rapid, to the point of quickly engulfing structures. Yesterday noticed a house where an aunt and uncle lived is almost overgrown, and it was well tended toward the end of last summer before the hurricane.

Hurricane Helene hit there here the last of September. It leveled several pecan groves and one owner opted to clear it and make a field out of it. They removed the fallen trees did a lot of work to remove roots and old irrigation, but then stopped before the land was put under cultivation. Now the same field is thick with grasses. If I didn't know better, would think it was broadcast with grass seed for pasture. It all sprang up naturally. If someone walked out in there, they'd likely find some seedlings coming up. Here it happens just that quickly.

Note: Locally, the vegetations can get pretty dense. Most of the wildlife here hang out in the edge areas, where there's more shrubs and stuff than deep in the woods.
 
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Chesterton

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As I said, it's concious versus mindless.

Humans make decisions and can be aware of consequences.
I think my dog is conscious.
There's also a different emotional association between something being gone because it wore out versus someone breaking it.

As an analogy someone is equally dead if they die of cancer or are murdered... but one feels worse.
I agree with you, but I don't get why an atheist would agree on these things.
The same way anyone else would:

Was it done by a human?

If "no" then it is natural, otherwise it was "artificial".
Humans are artificial? I agree.
 
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Shemjaza

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I think my dog is conscious.

I agree, but not to the same degree as a human. You dog has a level of reasoning, memory and emotion... but can't really make complex plans or understand sophisticated moral and aesthetic ideas.

I agree with you, but I don't get why an atheist would agree on these things.

I'm an atheist, not a machine or a psychopath.

A lack of supernatural purpose and permanence doesn't make the many unique things of this world less valuable, from my perspective things lost can be lost forever. My emotional and moral perspectives aren't based a religious conviction, but they are still both important to me and a challenge to myself to be better.
 
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Tuur

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I agree, but not to the same degree as a human. You dog has a level of reasoning, memory and emotion... but can't really make complex plans or understand sophisticated moral and aesthetic ideas.
Um...define complex. Dogs and wolves are pack animals, and hunt as a team. Have seen dogs use misdirection and one serve as a decoy for the others to carry out a plan. That makes sense from the pack hunter aspect. Is that complex planning?

Have seen some dogs and cats display a sense of their aesthetics. This gets into anecdotes and won't bore you, but there seems to be patterns and things pleasing to them. Such as moving a dog toy only for the dog to move it back to that position. Why did it want it there? For what purpose? Something that made sense to it, or it wouldn't consistently put forth that effort.

As to morals, what is sophistication? Here's an anecdote: We had a dog injured from chasing a car. He knew he wasn't suppose to chase cars, but did. When we called the vet, the dog displayed shame. Another anecdote: Was hunting and had a rare chance to stalk a deer. Was within range when the dog with me flushed it, then turned around and looked at me like "Shoot!" Then he realized he was was between me and the deer (I had a shotgun). Without me saying a word, he lowered his head, tucked his tail between his legs, and slowly walked back to me. He walked that way all the way back to the house. He knew he's done wrong, and felt bad about it.

Is that a sophisticated moral idea? Don't know. Only know that it is and animals are fun to just watch, even without anthropomorphizing their actions.
 
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AV1611VET

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