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How long does Purgatory last?

LastDaysJames

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You will need to provide actual citations, which I suspect you will find difficult, seeing as what you claim isn't true at all.
OK, I did do research, There was ONE faction of Christians that did pray for the dead in the 1st century church; it was started by a man named, Nicolas of Antioch. He came from a pagan religion, to becoming a Jew, then later he became a Christian. He brought many of his pagan teachings with him, and taught the church those. They were called the Nicolaitans. Revelation 2:15 warned against there teaching; and even says that He hates them.
 
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prodromos

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OK, I did do research, There was ONE faction of Christians that did pray for the dead in the 1st century church; it was started by a man named, Nicolas of Antioch. He came from a pagan religion, to becoming a Jew, then later he became a Christian. He brought many of his pagan teachings with him, and taught the church those. They were called the Nicolaitans. Revelation 2:15 warned against there teaching; and even says that He hates them.
So where is the citation?
 
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RileyG

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Also being a Catholic does not make one a Christian; any more than being a Mennonite (which I am by blood) makes me a Christian, or being a Lutheran a Christian. Being a Christian is simply the act of making Jesus Lord of your life. That is it, no matter who you are, or what denomination we are.
Per the forum rules, anyone who identifies as Christian on here is one. Just so you know.
 
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linux.poet

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AMBASSADOR HAT

@LastDaysJames, friendly staff (ish) reminder that what people are saying in the thread is indeed correct about the forum. From the CF sitewide rules:
  • Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.
And "groups of members", includes our friendly neighborhood Catholics, yup, they are a group. While your statements probably haven't fully broken the rules (yet) because you're making general statements about one believing one thing not automatically meant that you believe another, it's best not to play with breaking a rule. It's probably better to couch your arguments in terms of what you believe about Catholics, or better yet, name specific Catholic teachings that you specifically disagree with (which is allowed), rather than risk violating that rule and getting your posts removed in moderation.

In terms of this forum, Catholics are Christians. Let's respect that as we continue please.

AMBASSADOR HAT OFF

 
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The Liturgist

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The Liturgist

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So where is the citation?

We can actually refute what he said with a work that can be cited - the Nicolaitans were according to St. Irenaeus, venerated by Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans and other traditional Christians, who was in direct apostolic succession from St. John the Beloved Disciple, followers of Nicolas the Deacon, and their heresy had nothing to do with prayer for the dead, which we know from all surviving ancient liturgical texts was a universal practice, but rather involved the sharing of all property, and the belief that wives were property, and thus … husbands “sharing” their wives and the resulting adultery seen as a sacred ritual.

This was confirmed by St. Epiphanios of Cyprus, in the fourth century work known as the Panarion, meaning “chest of medicine” in the context of a first-aid kit, which likened each ancient heresy to a noxious critter. Of Simon the Deacon St. Epiphanios wrote “For with the reed that was placed in Christ’s hand we have truly struck and destroyed this man as well, who practiced continence for a short while and then abandoned it—like the creature called the newt, which comes from the water to land and returns to the water again.”
 
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jamiec

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How long does Purgatory last?
Presumably, until the individual soul is fit for God’s Presence - and therefore, is thoroughly purified of all “roots of offending”; that is, when that soul has been thoroughly refined and purified and renewed. Like “the words of the LORD“ which are “like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified sevenfold”; or like “the proven character of your faith—more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire” so that it “may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ”.

IMO, the “fire” of Purgatory is the “fire“ of God’s Holy Love. I agree with the idea that the Love of God is torment for the damned, purification for the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and the Fire of God’s Love for the Saints in Heaven. There is nothing about God’s Love that must be comfortable, if one is not in a fit state to receive it as it meant to be received. When St John sees the Glorified Christ in Rev 1, he “bec[omes] like a corpse” - the experience “undoes” him, as a similar vision “undid” Isaiah in Isa. 6. The Holy Souls in Purgatory are being prepared to “see God” “face to face”; and until they have faces (to borrow a phrase from C S Lewis) they cannot do so.
 
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jamiec

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Anglicanism and Lutheranism reject purgatory, its purely Catholic doctrine only.
C S Lewis believed there was some sort of Purgatory; and he was an Anglican.
 
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RileyG

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C S Lewis believed there was some sort of Purgatory; and he was an Anglican.
Correct, and Anglicanism, as a whole, does not support purgatory per their articles of religion.
 
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RileyG

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In the Orthodox Church we believe prayer for the dead can improve their eschatological outcome.
It’s also my understanding that the Eastern Catholic Churches do not use the term purgatory, per se, but believe prayers for the dead help.
 
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PloverWing

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Correct, and Anglicanism, as a whole, does not support purgatory per their articles of religion.

Different churches in the Anglican Communion view the Thirty-Nine Articles differently. In some churches, the Articles are viewed as binding on clergy, and clergy must affirm them. In other churches (the American church, for example), they are viewed as an important historical document, but not binding. In the American church (where we have more freedom on this), you'll see a variety of views on Purgatory.
 
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RileyG

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Different churches in the Anglican Communion view the Thirty-Nine Articles differently. In some churches, the Articles are viewed as binding on clergy, and clergy must affirm them. In other churches (the American church, for example), they are viewed as an important historical document, but not binding. In the American church (where we have more freedom on this), you'll see a variety of views on Purgatory.
Thanks for the info!

God bless
 
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The Liturgist

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It’s also my understanding that the Eastern Catholic Churches do not use the term purgatory, per se, but believe prayers for the dead help.

The Orthodox reject purgatory as such, but believe in prayer for the dead.
 
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RileyG

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The Orthodox reject purgatory as such, but believe in prayer for the dead.
Do they believe in a transition or intermediate state of being before heaven? I understand both heaven and hell are the fire of God’s love in Orthodox theology.
 
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The Liturgist

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Do they believe in a transition or intermediate state of being before heaven?

By Heaven, are you referring to the spiritual abode of God or the World to Come? Because it appears that you are referring to our eschatological final destination.

I suggest, because this is a complex issue, and the Eastern Orthodox approach is more complex than the Oriental Orthodox approach, that you bear that in mind first, and then read, with regards to the Eastern Orthodox, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, or The Fount of Wisdom by St. John Damascene (who is interestingly also venerated by the Oriental Orthodox, so what he writes might be more generally applicable), and then with regards to one of the mainstream interpretations within Eastern Orthodoxy, take a look at The State of the Soul After Death.

What both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox reject is the historic Roman Catholic conception of purgatory, as a condition of being the duration of time one spends in which being determined by the extent to which one has committed venial sins and minus the extent to which one has obtained through various penitential acts and sacramentals plenary indulgences (for example, copies of the Challoner Douai-Rheims Bible printed during the 1960s contain a table showing the indulgences one receives for each hour that one reads it, and also one’s’ time in purgatory can be reduced further by the intercessory prayers of others in the world of the living, and their practices in obtaining indulgences on behalf of the dead, and for this reason there exist purgatorial societies, and people who pray for the “poor souls” destined to spend a long time in Purgatory who have no one to pray for them (this is related to All Souls Day, which were it not for the purgatorial element, would be identical in meaning to the Soul Saturdays in the Orthodox Church), and which historically was also the reason why chantries existed. We likewise are not aware of any means by which the Church (which is, in this case, defined as the Orthodox + any churches that that are doctrinally orthodox and will re-enter into communion with us; thus, no one questions the catholicity of ROCOR or the Orthodox Church of North Macedonia, and in the case of the Antiochian Orthodox they correctly do not question the catholicity of the Syriac Orthodox, or vice versa, and like wise between the Alexandrian Greeks and the Copts, since the ecumenical agreements between these churches have the effect of entrusting the pastoral care of the faithful to the other church, for example, if a Copt marries an Alexandrian Greek, or in the case of the Antiochians and Syriac Orthodox, in general, except in North America, since the Antiochian Church of North America is an autonomous church kind of like the sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches in its relationship with Antioch, that was historically a part of the Russian Orthodox Church, until the schisms caused by the Soviet Union which caused the Russian Orthodox Church in North America to be split between what would become the OCA, the AOCNA, and to a lesser extent ROCOR, and to a much lesser extent the Patriarchal parishes) has control over a treasury of merit accumulated by the saints, which it can release in the form of indulgences.

This whole construct of Purgatory as a place of temporal punishment for sins which have been spiritually forgiven, which is ameliorated by penitential acts and offerings in response to which the church grants indulgences from a treasury of merit that has accumulated from the actions of the saints and over which the church has such specific control as to be able to reduce one’s time in purgatory by a specific amount in response to obtaining a specific indulgence granted for a specific action, such as making a pilgrimage or wearing the Brown Scapular or having a mass or the Office of the Dead said in one’s name, is what we reject as purgatory.

I would argue that in many respects the Orthodox view is potentially more intimidating to the poorly catechized than the historic Roman Catholic purgatorial construct with all of its distinctive attributes as described above, which likely appeared in the Scholastic period (since, while some church Fathers spoke of a cleansing of the souls of the saved, we don’t find anything like the elaborate system of the treasury of merit and indulgences for specific actions, or anything which could be read in such a way as to imply the existence of such, in the writings of the Greek or Syrian fathers); it is possible that the Purgatorial system was implemented in the Scholastic period based on the well-known desire of the Schoolmen to refine and clarify with greater precision the definitions of the faith employed by the Roman church. and furthermore to moderate what may have, in the West, seemed like a poorly defined and overly frightening system.

It is certainly the case that the Roman system did have the effect of promoting morality, and the abuse of it for financial purposes through the sale of indulgences was a short lived phenomena, which was completely abolished by the Council of Trent (Ironically, of the 95 theses, most of them revolved around this, so had Pope Leo X simply done this a few decades earlier, he could likely have forestalled the schism between the Roman Catholics and the Lutheran countries of Northern Europe, which would have made the schism between the Roman and English churches less likely. It is not clear that this would have prevented the Calvinist schism, but it would have prevented or delayed the separation of most Western Christians.

If you need any help accessing any of the books I have mentioned, please let me know.
 
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FireDragon76

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By Heaven, are you referring to the spiritual abode of God or the World to Come? Because it appears that you are referring to our eschatological final destination.

I suggest, because this is a complex issue, and the Eastern Orthodox approach is more complex than the Oriental Orthodox approach, that you bear that in mind first, and then read, with regards to the Eastern Orthodox, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, or The Fount of Wisdom by St. John Damascene (who is interestingly also venerated by the Oriental Orthodox, so what he writes might be more generally applicable), and then with regards to one of the mainstream interpretations within Eastern Orthodoxy, take a look at The State of the Soul After Death.

What both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox reject is the historic Roman Catholic conception of purgatory, as a condition of being the duration of time one spends in which being determined by the extent to which one has committed venial sins and minus the extent to which one has obtained through various penitential acts and sacramentals plenary indulgences (for example, copies of the Challoner Douai-Rheims Bible printed during the 1960s contain a table showing the indulgences one receives for each hour that one reads it, and also one’s’ time in purgatory can be reduced further by the intercessory prayers of others in the world of the living, and their practices in obtaining indulgences on behalf of the dead, and for this reason there exist purgatorial societies, and people who pray for the “poor souls” destined to spend a long time in Purgatory who have no one to pray for them (this is related to All Souls Day, which were it not for the purgatorial element, would be identical in meaning to the Soul Saturdays in the Orthodox Church), and which historically was also the reason why chantries existed. We likewise are not aware of any means by which the Church (which is, in this case, defined as the Orthodox + any churches that that are doctrinally orthodox and will re-enter into communion with us; thus, no one questions the catholicity of ROCOR or the Orthodox Church of North Macedonia, and in the case of the Antiochian Orthodox they correctly do not question the catholicity of the Syriac Orthodox, or vice versa, and like wise between the Alexandrian Greeks and the Copts, since the ecumenical agreements between these churches have the effect of entrusting the pastoral care of the faithful to the other church, for example, if a Copt marries an Alexandrian Greek, or in the case of the Antiochians and Syriac Orthodox, in general, except in North America, since the Antiochian Church of North America is an autonomous church kind of like the sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches in its relationship with Antioch, that was historically a part of the Russian Orthodox Church, until the schisms caused by the Soviet Union which caused the Russian Orthodox Church in North America to be split between what would become the OCA, the AOCNA, and to a lesser extent ROCOR, and to a much lesser extent the Patriarchal parishes) has control over a treasury of merit accumulated by the saints, which it can release in the form of indulgences.

This whole construct of Purgatory as a place of temporal punishment for sins which have been spiritually forgiven, which is ameliorated by penitential acts and offerings in response to which the church grants indulgences from a treasury of merit that has accumulated from the actions of the saints and over which the church has such specific control as to be able to reduce one’s time in purgatory by a specific amount in response to obtaining a specific indulgence granted for a specific action, such as making a pilgrimage or wearing the Brown Scapular or having a mass or the Office of the Dead said in one’s name, is what we reject as purgatory.

I would argue that in many respects the Orthodox view is potentially more intimidating to the poorly catechized than the historic Roman Catholic purgatorial construct with all of its distinctive attributes as described above, which likely appeared in the Scholastic period (since, while some church Fathers spoke of a cleansing of the souls of the saved, we don’t find anything like the elaborate system of the treasury of merit and indulgences for specific actions, or anything which could be read in such a way as to imply the existence of such, in the writings of the Greek or Syrian fathers); it is possible that the Purgatorial system was implemented in the Scholastic period based on the well-known desire of the Schoolmen to refine and clarify with greater precision the definitions of the faith employed by the Roman church. and furthermore to moderate what may have, in the West, seemed like a poorly defined and overly frightening system.

It is certainly the case that the Roman system did have the effect of promoting morality, and the abuse of it for financial purposes through the sale of indulgences was a short lived phenomena, which was completely abolished by the Council of Trent (Ironically, of the 95 theses, most of them revolved around this, so had Pope Leo X simply done this a few decades earlier, he could likely have forestalled the schism between the Roman Catholics and the Lutheran countries of Northern Europe, which would have made the schism between the Roman and English churches less likely. It is not clear that this would have prevented the Calvinist schism, but it would have prevented or delayed the separation of most Western Christians.

If you need any help accessing any of the books I have mentioned, please let me know.

Zwingli got his ideas for reform from Luther, they were not completely his own. And to his credit, the Swiss were little more than cannon fodder for the Holy Roman Empire. Zwingli was a brave and compassionate man (he survived the plague, and died as a chaplain in war), despite starting the controversy over the Lord's Supper, his motives were against an oppressive and heavy-handed papal order that had made local differences in rite or piety more or less forbidden.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Interesting, the early Church offered prayers for the dead, and all apostolic Churches pray for the dead.

Which is one of the reasons Lutherans (and the Lutheran Confessions themselves) do not reject prayers for the dead, the Lutheran Confessions explicitly state that this is a good and ancient Christian practice.

Lutherans, therefore, reject purgatory but do not reject praying for the dead. I, speaking personally, do offer prayers for the departed and keep those who have fallen asleep in the Lord in my prayers. I consider this to be normative Christian practice.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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OK, I did do research, There was ONE faction of Christians that did pray for the dead in the 1st century church; it was started by a man named, Nicolas of Antioch. He came from a pagan religion, to becoming a Jew, then later he became a Christian. He brought many of his pagan teachings with him, and taught the church those. They were called the Nicolaitans. Revelation 2:15 warned against there teaching; and even says that He hates them.

What, exactly, did your research consist of? Because, not to be rude--but no. I don't know where you're getting this, but no.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The Liturgist

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What, exactly, did your research consist of? Because, not to be rude--but no. I don't know where you're getting this, but no.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed, the Nicolaitans according to St. Irenaeus of Lyons (second century witness) and all other historical churches were a sect founded by Nicolas the Deacon, one of the seven deacons ordained in acts, but the opposite of St. Stephen the Illustrious Protomartyr or St. Philip the Deacon, in that Nicolas formed a schismatic sect of the docetic-emanationist sect that believed all property should be held in common … and that wives were property … and regarded this perverted sharing as a sacred mystery … from these three bits of information its not hard to work why of all the early heretical sects that existed during the exile of St. John on Patmos, which included the followers of Simon Magus, the Ebionites, the Docetae and some others who would influence the Valentinians, Ophites, Tatianists and Severians of the second century (perhaps including if we accept a late date for Revelation, the Marcionites), the Nicolaitans were the only one sufficiently abhorrent for our Lord to denounce them personally.
 
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RileyG

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Which is one of the reasons Lutherans (and the Lutheran Confessions themselves) do not reject prayers for the dead, the Lutheran Confessions explicitly state that this is a good and ancient Christian practice.

Lutherans, therefore, reject purgatory but do not reject praying for the dead. I, speaking personally, do offer prayers for the departed and keep those who have fallen asleep in the Lord in my prayers. I consider this to be normative Christian practice.

-CryptoLutheran
Wonderful!
 
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