I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

Beth77 said:

Because of the verses in the OP and more. I believe they likely went into the Lake of Fire but it's not forever and it's ultimately about chastening for the purpose of correction, refinement, and restoration. Remember, in Revelation Jesus says "Behold, I am making ALL THINGS new!".

Do you believe that Jesus meant all things when he said "all things"?

Click to expand...

Do the scriptures say the lake of fire is not forever? Where?

Friar Tuck said:

I have always wondered how Christians can be happy living in heaven or where ever , while their unbelieving friends and loved ones are suffering somewhere else.

Click to expand...

Jesus showed how, and why. Matthew 10:33-37
Also, recall the time his relatives were looking for him, thinking that he was crazy, and the people came and told him they were outside the house asking for him... do you remember what Jesus said? Mark 3:21, 31-35

If Jesus' relative had not accepted him as the savior of the world, do you realize that they would not have been accepted by his father?
People say blood is thicker than water, but spiritual family bonds are stronger than fleshly family bonds.
It's because of spirit.

God's spirit affects hearts, and those connected to God's spirit know what true love is.1 John 4:8
On the other hand, disconnection from God's spirit makes us subject to another's spirit, and our actions - not might be, but will be against God. 1 John 3:9, 10

Friar Tuck said:

My mother ,father and brother have all passed on and were unbelievers , and as a believer I do wonder how happy I might be after I die knowing this. To be honest , I don't think i'm going to be happy at all unless I see them again.

Click to expand...

My condolences.
I can sympathize with you and your loss.
I recently lost a loved one in death, and I know the feeling.
I look forward to seeing them again, along with many others, because I know they are resting - asleep. John 11:11-44

You will see them again... provided you stay close to God, and draw ever closer to him.
That way, you will remain on the earth, and see them when Jesus calls them. John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15

Hoping2 said:

Sinners are not God's children.
They are the children of the devil !

Click to expand...

But, praise God, saved sinners are indeed God's children.

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,” (Eph 2:1-6 NKJV)

Jipsah said:

". Doesn't one have to have eternal life in order to be tortured forever?

Click to expand...

I don't know why you are posting this to me. I don't believe God is in the business of torturing someone for an eternity and have never stated as such. I do believe as Christ teaches that we are to fear the one that can destroy (fully) both body and soul in hell. And his teachings in Revelation are a second witness to that.

Jipsah said:

Here's one that Damnationists seem to have a lot of trouble with. "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life".

Click to expand...

Nice generalization and assumption there but I don't have a problem with it at all. I've posted this many many times on different threads. The wages of sin is death period. So what's your point to me?

Jipsah said:

And of course, in Damnationist thought, no one ever really dies at all, right?

Click to expand...

Of course they do. That's been my entire point on this entire thread. Second Death is exactly that -death. Meaning it's not eternal life in heaven or hell. It's death. The Second Death being the death of the soul.

If we take the bible as a whole it's always life or death period.

Hoping2 said:

There are people. People are not Gods.

Click to expand...

Well, you might as well fess up. Are people devil's children?

OR can you possibly see the reality that unseen demons are in fact the devil's children, and not people?

Hoping2 said:

The children of the devil do not and cannot love their neighbors.

Click to expand...

Uh huh. Instead they sentence their unsaved neighbors to burn alive forever. Oh, and they say it's God, not them. But that's not the only sight available from scripture.

So what is really happening with that view is that it is showing the intentions of the heart of the readers claiming such things, ala the reality Jer. 17:9

By my own sight I can't even blame the people making such claims as I know for a fact it's simply demonic influences in the claimers, and not the people.

Hoping2 said:

Again...Aren't you glad we can destroy that old man

Click to expand...

I don't know where you derive that you are better than your neighbors whom we're commanded to love by Jesus from cover to cover in the Bible. Do you actually read what Jesus said below? vvv

I can see by this guy that God basically disregards his claims of righteousness in favor of the truthful man, whom by the way didn't even know Jesus:

Luke 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

So, you see, you can be justified only if you're TRUTHFUL to the fact of being a sinner, even if you're not a believer in Jesus.

On this basis alone I'd suggest there are far far far more honest UNSAVED people in the world who will be justified long before any other self righteous liars in the churches. Nothing personal mind you

CoreyD said:

Do the scriptures say the lake of fire is not forever? Where?

Click to expand...

Nothing personal against my fellow believers who believe in the salvation of all people, as I do

However there are Christian universalists who do not believe in Satanic salvation, the temporary torture of people in the LoF including christians who don't love their neighbors as themselves or the supposed temporary nature of the LoF whereby various agents, the devil and his messengers and possibly even death and hell itself ESCAPING from that hold.

None of that is going to happen. There are better legitimate sights to be had from scripture that can run the gauntlet of scripture

Hoping2 said:

One.
That is all Adam and Eve committed.
And Moses too !

Click to expand...

Yes. Man likes labels but in reality there is only one sin. One which A&E and Moses both committed.. they put their will ahead of the will of God.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Nothing personal against my fellow believers who believe in the salvation of all people, as I do

However there are Christian universalists who do not believe in Satanic salvation, the temporary torture of people in the LoF including christians who don't love their neighbors as themselves or the supposed temporary nature of the LoF whereby various agents, the devil and his messengers and possibly even death and hell itself ESCAPING from that hold.

None of that is going to happen. There are better legitimate sights to be had from scripture that can run the gauntlet of scripture

Click to expand...

I don't understand what You are saying here, but I can see that you are stating personal beliefs, since the Bible does not refer to "temporary torture of people in the LoF".
I'm note sure what you mean by the last sentence.

CoreyD said:

"temporary torture of people in the LoF".

Click to expand...

Wasn't that the purgatory relatives could buy the way of loved ones out of?

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Who said a resisting to God will is that of the person anyway? We know that people are stolen from by Satan, Mark 4;15, blinded in mind by the god of this world so they can't believe, 2 Cor. 4:4, under the influences of the spirit of disobedience, Eph. 2:2, even their sin including the sin of unbelief is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

Removed from the above forced blindness in part in this life or in full in the next will allow us to see more clearly or even perfectly at some point

I was referring to your previous statement about being showered with gifts

Click to expand...

People can take comfort in not being the cause of their sins, but will that help them humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity?

timothyu said:

Wasn't that the purgatory relatives could buy the way of loved ones out of?

Click to expand...

Do you mean the one the Catholics came up with?
No. The lake of fire, is in the Bible and refers to the second death, while purgatory is in the Catholics' doctrines.

In Christianity, Purgatory is a passing intermediate state after physical death for purifying or purging a soul.
In Catholic doctrine, purgatory refers to the final cleansing of those who died in the State of Grace, and leaves in them only "the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven"; it is entirely different from the punishment of the damned and is not related to the forgiveness of sins for salvation.

The lake of fire is everlasting destruction. 2 Thessalonians 1:9

David Lamb said:

But, praise God, saved sinners are indeed God's children.

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,” (Eph 2:1-6 NKJV)

Click to expand...

Amen to that 'good news'.
Man doesn't have to remain as the children of the devil, and can change both their present and future conditions.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Well, you might as well fess up. Are people devil's children?

Click to expand...

The people who have not repented of sin, and been washed of them by the blood of Christ, are still the children of the devil.,

BelieveItOarKnot said:

OR can you possibly see the reality that unseen demons are in fact the devil's children, and not people?

Click to expand...

Got a scripture stating the opposite of 1 John 3:8-10 ?
It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Uh huh. Instead they sentence their unsaved neighbors to burn alive forever. Oh, and they say it's God, not them. But that's not the only sight available from scripture.

Click to expand...

The devil's children do nothing of the kind.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

So what is really happening with that view is that it is showing the intentions of the heart of the readers claiming such things, ala the reality Jer. 17:9

Click to expand...

Thanks be to God we can destroy the old man described in Jer 19, and be reborn of God's seed !

BelieveItOarKnot said:

By my own sight I can't even blame the people making such claims as I know for a fact it's simply demonic influences in the claimers, and not the people.

Click to expand...

I feel that the demons spend their time trying to make God's word null and void.
Words like these, from Jesus Christ..."Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:44-46)

BelieveItOarKnot said:

I don't know where you derive that you are better than your neighbors whom we're commanded to love by Jesus from cover to cover in the Bible. Do you actually read what Jesus said below?

Click to expand...

I don't recall claiming such a thing, but if you feel that living according to God's wishes makes one a better person, you would be correct.
The haters of God also hate God's children.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

I can see by this guy that God basically disregards his claims of righteousness in favor of the truthful man, whom by the way didn't even know Jesus:
Luke 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

Click to expand...

Even the best of the OT still were not accounted as righteous, when compared to how we can be since Jesus' resurrection.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

So, you see, you can be justified only if you're TRUTHFUL to the fact of being a sinner, even if you're not a believer in Jesus.

Click to expand...

Even that sort of honesty will avail one nothing, if it isn't accompanied by a true turn from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

On this basis alone I'd suggest there are far far far more honest UNSAVED people in the world who will be justified long before any other self righteous liars in the churches. Nothing personal mind you

Click to expand...

Their justification will depend on their belief in Christ.
And those that believe in Christ, would rather die than commit a deed that would make Him sad.

CoreyD said:

No. The lake of fire, is in the Bible and refers to the second death, while purgatory is in the Catholics' doctrines.

Click to expand...

I was referring to "temporary torture of people in the LoF". Why would there be one, let alone two tortures?

timothyu said:

Yes. Man likes labels but in reality there is only one sin. One which A&E and Moses both committed.. they put their will ahead of the will of God.

Click to expand...

I can't disagree with that.

Hoping2 said:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Click to expand...

Right. No life eternal for the punished and no reprieve.

timothyu said:

I was referring to "temporary torture of people in the LoF". Why would there be one, let alone two tortures?

Click to expand...

Why are you referring to "temporary torture of people in the LoF"? Where is that in the Bible?
My question to the poster was. Do the scriptures say the lake of fire is not forever? Where?
Can you show me where the lake of fire is temporary?

Hoping2 said:

Yep...life comes from God.

1 John 3:8-10 says otherwise.
It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, "

Your doctrine rewards such twisting, by allowing even the worst to inherit eternal life.
Why resist any temptation at all, if it won't matter on the day of judgement ?

Thank God for providing the means of that "wages of sin" by baptism into Jesus, and into His death, burial, and resurrection ! (Rom 6:3-7)

1 John 1:6, 8, and10, all address those walking in darkness.
Look at 1 John 1:5, 7, and 9, for the verses that apply to those walking in the light (which is God in whom is no sin)

If as your doctrine says; sin won't keep anyone from heaven; not having the truth in us really won't matter on the day of judgement.
There would be no point in attempting to love and serve God...or neighbor...if it just didn't matter.
Which leave man in a survivor of the fittest condition: just like stray dogs.

Click to expand...

I personally enjoy a good debate or discussion, but I also know that in order to debate someone effectively I need to know what that person believes and why they believe what they do, that's just smart debating, kind of like being a lawyer know the answers to he questions before they are asked. From the responses you have given, you have proved you have not done your homework,
Let me give you a readers digest version- God/Jesus/Holy Spirit were and are in perfect union and fellowship with each other for all eternity past, they are infinite and decided to share that love, fellowship, union with a creation.
They could have created a creation that would love them just because they had to, but they wanted the purest form of love from and for this creation, so humanity was given free will, if we have been given free will that means we must choose to love God by ourselves not out of force.
The big problem is for humanity to have free will, evil must be let in or available so we could make a choice.
In God giving us free will and letting evil in, death, destruction, pain and agony and a whole lot of other bad stuff would result.
God being Love, not a God who loves but Love itself, knew that if he let in evil, he must pay the cost for that action, that is why scripture says Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world, that was the plan.
For God to have a creation that would love him out of free will they must experience life in a world that had rejected his plan and is doing things their own way, the result is about 6000 years of death, pain and agony, and all of humanity is in this. Life has been hard and painful because we were created in such a way, that we are not at peace with God or each other unless we are in union with God as we were created for.
God created time he broke up into ages ( in the Greek aion ) Adam to Noah- one age, Noah to Abraham- one age Abraham to Jesus _one age, Jesus cross to second coming the current age or aion, lastly the millennium the last age of old earth, each age or aion had its own way of how God progressively was drawing his creation to his ultimate goal, fellowship with him, all his creation not just a part but all,
god doesn't do things just to see if they will turn out, he plans and nothing can thwart his plan.
So Jesus comes into humanity as a human, he set his glory aside and took on humanity. 2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation"
1 Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth,
Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience that he might have mercy on all.
1 Cor 15: 22 As in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live.
John 4:42 Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world, ( not potential savior)
John 12:47 Jesus came to save the cosmos not judge it,
John 5:22 The Father judges no one but has left the judgement up to Jesus. (who came to save not judge)
Jesus died and defeated the devil and he has the keys to death and hades, he has destroyed the power of the devil, he became sin, he took all sin into himself, he paid the cost for all humanity, this was the plan, he came to rescue his creation Rom 5:18 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men,
Adams sin was not stronger than Jesus death and resurrection, Col 1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile to himself all things on earth or in heaven by Jesus. ( do you see a pattern or theme)
1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the Living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
We who believe are to bring the message of reconciliation to the world, that God has made a way for all his creation to come into fellowship with him, its finished, we can follow God now and come into fellowship with him by dying to self now and letting God strip away all that is not of him now while in our mortal bodies, or we can take the hard way, live life our own way for self and upon death, as Heb 9:27 it is appointed for man to die once then the judgement. This not a heaven or hell judgement, its a did you die to self and follow Jesus while in the mortal body? If yes then you go to the aionion life, life in Jesus who lives forever and therefore the life goes on forever. If you lived for self and your own thing then Jesus says, You denied me before men I am denying you before the Father, you lose your inheritance and according to Matt 25:46 you go into kolasis aionios which is the judgement of the age, its a corrective judgement to bring you into the truth,( 1Tim 2:3-6 God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth) kolasis was originally a arborist term that they used to prune or lop off parts of a plant that were keeping the plant from fruiting. We call that the Lake of Fire, its a refinery to burn off all the dross and make Gods creation see him for who he is, to experience his love without all the junk that has been dragging or holding them back from seeing God as he is, pure Love,Life and Light in him is no darkness.
This process will not be fun but will be painful, the whole weeping and gnashing of teeth thing, WE do not now how God is going to do this or how long it will last but no one gets away with anything. but in the end as God has said 3 times every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. Then 1 Cor 15: 28 God will be all in all, then New Heaven and New Earth, the old is passed away all things will be new.
So no, no one gets away with anything, don't be like those in Matt 20 saying, its not fair we jumped through all these hoops for God and did all this stuff and those who only worked an hour get the same pay. This creation id Gods can he not do with his creation what he wants?

CoreyD said:

Why are you referring to "temporary torture of people in the LoF"?

Click to expand...

Because somebody mentioned it

Hoping2 said:

Do you see any reason for Jesus to live, suffer, and die ?

Click to expand...

From your perspective, no. From your Damnationist viewpoint, the vast majority of the people ever born are Childen of Satan, thus setting Christ's sacrifice at nought for most of those for whom He presumably died. Because of the supremacy of Free Will which trumps the Will and Authority of God and and Christ's sacrifice on the cross, it's "Poor God, There's Just Nothing He Can Do" other than chuck most of those for whom Christ lived, suffered, and died into hell to live eternally in torment.

Personally, I think that idea is rubbish. It elevates the will of humans, which is based primarily on ignorance, stupidity, and overt manipulation by both human and inhuman agencies to a greater importance than God's Will. That's simply idiotic.

I have grandkids, whose lives I value far more than I do my own. Do I let them do whatever seems good to them base o their "free will" without regard for the consequences? Fat chance, I love them, Do I let Sejong ride his trike in the street? I do not, his three year old "free will"be blowed. Do I let little Soren eat the stuff he finds on the ground and decides looks tasty, or stuff gravel up his nose? Nope; heartless tyrant that I am, I violate his Sacred Free Will, because I know more stuff than he does, understand how things work better than he does, and understand that the big world tosses endless temptations at him that he sees no reason to resist. Does he understand and appreciate me looking after his welfare? He does not, and often expresses his dipleasure in a loud voice, and by lying in the floor and throwing his toys.

Now I reckon I could declare the young 'uns Children of Disobedience and arrange some means of having them perpetually punished for being so naughty, but I actually love them, and would literally lay down my life for them to prevent any such thing from happening. Yeah, I'll step all over their Free Will, just as my parents and grandparents did mine, (Thanks be to God!) And just as I hope God will stomp all over my idiotic Free Will and shove me back into line. He already laid down His life for me (and all of us), so I reckon He's shown how far He's willing to go to save His young 'uns.

Yeah, He could say to us "Yeah, I died for you, but you've been little swine, so to hell with you!" but somehow I have to believe that God is not just smarter and more powerful than us, but also better than us. Radical concept, innit? Maybe He's motivated more by love than by anger and malice. He's given us reason to believe that, hasn't He?

So bottom line for me: Is God bound by our "Free Will" (which, BTW, isn't free at all, but that's a different thread)? Sure, just like I am by my grandkid's free will, I.e., not at all. Does God want to save everyone? He says so: "…God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth", so who's gonna stop Him? Us? Yeah, just like my grandkids will stop me from protecting them by lying in the floor and screaming. Is God powerless to see His will done by anyone or anything? If your answer to that is yes, then we have nothing more to discuss, because we're talking about different deities.