why do people think ot covenant are still active?

Hawkins · Jun 4, 2025

Law won't go away, nor will a covenant, from the perspective of Judgment. They don't apply to humans outside of the scope though. Gentiles are never within the scope of the OT Jewish Covenant, they may convert though. Conversion however ceased with the cutoff point of John the Baptist, since then only the gospel is preached. By the choice of the Orthodox Jews, they are still under the OT Law (of Mosaic Covenant). So the OT covenant is still there, it's still applicable to the Jews. It is obsolette only in the sense that the New Covenant is in place since John the Baptist, while it's the only Covenant which saves, theologically speaking. Gentiles are with backward conversion provided, only a Jew can still choose to be under Law and with a valid circumcision.

Paul actually urged Timothy to circumcise, it significantly means the Mosaic Covenant is still there for even a Jewish Christian to adapt. It is so because the effect of covenants is overlappable. The Jews can observe Mosaic Law and be a Christian at the same time without conflict. For this reason, the Sabbath is a Saturday such that a Jewish Christian can keep, while the Lord's Day is on Sunday such that the same Jewish Christian can attend.

Clare73 · Jun 4, 2025

Hawkins said:
Law won't go away, nor will a covenant, from the perspective of Judgment. They don't apply to humans outside of the scope though. Gentiles are never within the scope of the OT Jewish Covenant, they may convert though.

The Old Covenant with Moses as its mediator is obsolete (vanished). . .Heb 8:13, having been fulfilled in Christ.

All God's people are now in his New Covenant of which Jesus is the Mediator.

Those not in the New Covenant are not God's people.

Hawkins said:
Conversion however ceased with the cutoff point of John the Baptist, since then only the gospel is preached. By the choice of the Orthodox Jews, they are still under the OT Law (of Mosaic Covenant). So the OT covenant is still there, it's still applicable to the Jews. It is obsolette only in the sense that the New Covenant is in place since John the Baptist, while it's the only Covenant which saves, theologically speaking. Gentiles are with backward conversion provided, only a Jew can still choose to be under Law and with a valid circumcision.

Paul actually urged Timothy to circumcise, it significantly means the Mosaic Covenant is still there for even a Jewish Christian to adapt.

Read the text again. . .it meant no such thing.

Hawkins said:
It is so because the effect of covenants is overlappable.

Not according to the NT word of God in Heb 8:13, where the Old Covenant is obsolete (vanished) and all God's people are in a New Covenant made with the blood of Jesus (Lk 22:20).

Hawkins · Jun 4, 2025

Clare73 said:
The Old Covenant with Moses as its mediator is obsolete (vanished). . .Heb 8:13, having been fulfilled in Christ.

All God's people are now in his New Covenant of which Jesus is the Mediator.

Those not in the New Covenant are not God's people.

Read the text again. . .it meant no such thing.

Not according to the NT word of God in Heb 8:13, where the Old Covenant is obsolete (vanished) and all God's people are in a New Covenant made with the blood of Jesus (Lk 22:20).

You can't explain this, or perhaps can only explain it away,

Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Clare73 · Jun 4, 2025

Hawkins said:
You can't explain this, or perhaps can only explain it away,

Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Nothing there about the Siniatic/Mosaic covenant.

pasifika · Jun 4, 2025

Hawkins said:
You can't explain this, or perhaps can only explain it away,

Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Now we're waiting the disappearing of this heavens and this Earth, with it, the letters from the Law because Jesus has already accomplished everything.

Guojing · Jun 4, 2025

Covenants belong to the nation of Israel (Romans 9:4)

Many Christians think the only way to be saved is thru a covenant.

The phrasing of the new covenant to nation of Israel is very attractive (Hebrews 8:8-12)

Therefore, those Christians want to place themselves also under that new covenant.

SabbathBlessings · Jun 4, 2025

pasifika said:
Now we're waiting the disappearing of this heavens and this Earth, with it, the letters from the Law because Jesus has already accomplished everything.

When did Jesus accomplish this? Jesus said ALL is fulfilled, not just some things. Therefore the Law stands, not a jot or tittle shall pass.

1 Thes 4:6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

pasifika · Jun 4, 2025

Guojing said:
Covenants belong to the nation of Israel (Romans 9:4)

Many Christians think the only way to be saved is thru a covenant.

The phrasing of the new covenant to nation of Israel is very attractive (Hebrews 8:8-12)

Therefore, those Christians want to place themselves also under that new covenant.

A 'Believer" in the Gospel is an Israelite despite it ethnicity, race, language etc Romans 9:6-8

Guojing · Jun 4, 2025

pasifika said:
A 'Believer" in the Gospel is an Israelite despite it ethnicity, race, language etc Romans 9:6-8

If you read that entire passage properly, what Paul is saying that being the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to be true Israel.

You need to be the seed of Isaac as well. (Romans 9:10), as well as Jacob (Romans 9:11-13)

A believer in the gospel does not mean Isaac becomes your father, nor Jacob, so you cannot be true Israel.

pasifika · Jun 4, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
When did Jesus accomplish this? Jesus said ALL is fulfilled, not just some things. Therefore the Law stands, not a jot or tittle shall pass.

1 Thes 4:6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Jesus said nothing will disappear (heaven & earth, law) until everything is accomplished.

And Jesus has accomplished everything set out to do. ie fulfill Righteousness of God in which the law cannot. see vs20

if Righteousness could have come from the Law then Jesus died for nothing!

Do you know what is it to accomplish in Jesus statement in Matt 5:17,18

SabbathBlessings · Jun 4, 2025

pasifika said:
Jesus said nothing will disappear (heaven & earth, law) until everything is accomplished.

And Jesus has accomplished everything set out to do. ie fulfill Righteousness of God in which the law cannot. see vs20

if Righteousness could have come from the Law then Jesus died for nothing!

Do you know what is it to accomplish in Jesus statement in Matt 5:17,18

It says until all is fulfilled, which is not until Jesus comes, unless you believe His plan is to leave His faithful in a world full of evil, death and sin. Its not what He says, so I am going to stick with what He said.

Also Mat 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

does not say
Righteousness of God in which the law cannot.

Which would not make sense coming off of this verse

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Its hard to reason with our opinions over what the Word of God clearly says, so I'll leave it as agree to disagree and it will get sorted out soon enough. Be well.

pasifika · Jun 4, 2025

Guojing said:
If you read that entire passage properly, what Paul is saying that being the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to be true Israel.

You need to be the seed of Isaac as well. (Romans 9:10), as well as Jacob (Romans 9:11-13)

A believer in the gospel does not mean Isaac becomes your father, nor Jacob, so you cannot be true Israel.

according to Paul in Romans 9:6 you don't have to be physical descendant of Israel to belong to Israel.

instead, you must be chosen by God to be descendant of Israel.
see vs 8

Guojing · Jun 4, 2025

pasifika said:
according to Paul in Romans 9:6 you don't have to be physical descendant of Israel to belong to Israel.

instead, you must be chosen by God to be descendant of Israel.
see vs 8

Romans 9:6 is saying being a physical Jew, that is thru circumcision, is not sufficient to belong to true Israel.

You are reading that verse as saying being a physical Jew, that is thru circumcision, is not necessary to belong to true Israel.

You don't understand the distinction between the 2 bolded terms?

Anyway, if you prefer not to read and understand the entire passage, and rather form a doctrine based on partial fallacious reading, that is your choice.

pasifika · Jun 4, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
It says until all is fulfilled, which is not until Jesus comes, unless you believe His plan is to leave His faithful in a world full of evil, death and sin. Its not what He says, so I am going to stick with what He said.

Also Mat 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

does not say
Righteousness of God in which the law cannot.

Which would not make sense coming off of this verse

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Its hard to reason with our opinions over what the Word of God clearly says, so I'll leave it as agree to disagree and it will get sorted out soon enough. Be well.

fulfill ALL, Jesus is referring to fulfill All "Righteousness"

"Let it be so now, it is proper for us to do this to fullfil ALL Righteousness" Matt 3:15

So unless you missed it, let me tell you that Jesus has fulfill All Righteousness through His Life, Death, and Resurrection.

timothyu · Jun 4, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
It says until all is fulfilled

And we’re not even close. TheLords prayer says when the Father ‘ will is done in earth. No sign of that yet on a global scale .

pasifika · Jun 4, 2025

Guojing said:
Romans 9:6 is saying being a physical Jew, that is thru circumcision, is not sufficient to belong to true Israel.

You are reading that verse as saying being a physical Jew, that is thru circumcision, is not necessary to belong to true Israel.

You don't understand the distinction between the 2 bolded terms?

Anyway, if you prefer not to read and understand the entire passage, and rather form a doctrine based on partial reading, that is your choice.

where is "circumcision" in those verses I quoted?

it's about" descendants" and " physical" to be Israel.

But to be Israel you must be God's chosen one, just like Isaac, Jacob (verse 9,10)

and Paul uses this knowledge when he speaks to the Galatians gentiles in Gal 4:28

Guojing · Jun 4, 2025

pasifika said:
where is "circumcision" in those verses I quoted?

Abraham was given the covenant of circumcision in Genesis 17. His physical seed/descendants must be circumcised, otherwise they will be cut off (Genesis 17:14).

pasifika said:
it's about" descendants" and " physical" to be Israel.

But to be Israel you must be God's chosen one, just like Isaac, Jacob (verse 9,10)

Romans 9:10 said "our father Isaac", don't remove that.

pasifika said:
and Paul uses this knowledge when he speaks to the Galatians gentiles in Gal 4:28

We being in Christ, are children of promise, like Isaac.

That does not make Isaac our father.

You understand the difference?

pasifika · Jun 4, 2025

"I have brought you Glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do" John 17:4

" And now Father, Glorify me in your presence with the Glory I had with You before the world began".

pasifika · Jun 4, 2025

Guojing said:
Abraham was given the covenant of circumcision in Genesis 17. His physical descendants must be circumcised, otherwise they will be cut off (Genesis 17:14).

Romans 9:10 said "our father Isaac", don't remove that.

We being in Christ, are children of promise, like Isaac.

That does not make Isaac our father.

You understand the difference?

yes I can see where you're coming from. that makes Gentiles believers "brothers" and children of Abraham like Isaac.

"Israel" is Abraham children or descendants also God's children based on God's promise (which tie back to the covenant) Rom 9:6-

Guojing · Jun 4, 2025

pasifika said:
yes I can see where you're coming from. that makes Gentiles believers "brothers" and children of Abraham like Isaac.

"Israel" is Abraham children or descendants also God's children based on God's promise (which tie back to the covenant) Rom 9:6-

You forgot that Israel is also Jacob's children. Exodus 3:15

And God said moreover unto Moses,

Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,

The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you:

The term Israel came from Jacob. (Genesis 32:28)

How is Jacob our father?

why do people think ot covenant are still active?

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