6,000 Years?

In December 1981, Coffin and Ariel Roth, also employed by GRI, served as expert witnesses on behalf of the defense during the Arkansas Creation trial (McLean et al. vs State Board of Education). They referred to things like rapid fossilization and massive depth of coal beds as bases for believing in a worldwide flood. Under cross-examination, however, Coffin noted that his belief in a young earth was based on the Bible; he said the scientific
evidence alone would lead him to believe the earth was very old.16 He testified that his reading of the Bible and the results of his scientific studies convinced him that the Genesis Flood had taken place five to seven thousand years ago.
“Deposition of Harold G. Coffin,” 75.

River Jordan said:

I've read his quote many, many times and I agree with it!

In science all of our explanations for things have to be testable. We can't scientifically test God. So if I'm at work and after we discovered something or saw something new in the lab and I proposed "God did that", how would we test it?

The answer is we can't, and that's why we "can't allow a divine foot in the door". It's not an anti-God sentiment, it's about how things in science have to be testable.

Click to expand...

It is one thing to agree that one's faith or world view should be left out of the realm of scientific fact. It is another altogether, to predetermine that there is no God, and intentionally use the field of science as a method to prove and or deny such according to one's chosen faith. Especially while demanding that your own faith based theories built upon presumptions are to be considered scientifically tested and proved facts. Which they are not. Deep time scenarios regarding that which cannot be observed and or tested, are necessarily then, every bit as faith based as that of YEC's faith in a literal or historical rendering of the Genesis creation account. YEC's faith is in God's word as plainly stated. Deep time evolutionary faith, is in the speculations of fallen humanities best guesses concerning that which cannot be observed or tested. Which speculations are and have been proved wrong over and again, and are heavily supported and or influenced by a great many non bible believers and atheists.

Nevertheless, for professed bible believing Christians, the Apostle Paul makes a very clear and pointed statement.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Those who choose to ignore God regarding that which He has made, are in fact without excuse for doing so. Today we see much more clearly, the once invisible things of creation, and they unquestionably point to a level of complexity that screams design very loudly and clearly. So loudly and clearly, that those who reject this most obvious truth, are without excuse before God. As guilty today of changing "the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things", as the idol worshippers of old were.

Amo2 said:

It is one thing to agree that one's faith or world view should be left out of the realm of scientific fact. It is another altogether, to predetermine that there is no God, and intentionally use the field of science as a method to prove and or deny such according to one's chosen faith.

Click to expand...

But that doesn't happen in the everyday work of science. We don't go in to work each day having "pre-determined that there is no God".

Amo2 said:

Especially while demanding that your own faith based theories built upon presumptions are to be considered scientifically tested and proved facts. Which they are not. Deep time scenarios regarding that which cannot be observed and or tested, are necessarily then, every bit as faith based as that of YEC's faith in a literal or historical rendering of the Genesis creation account.

Click to expand...

No that's not how science works. We don't have to observe something before it can be studied and tested. That's why archaeologists can draw conclusions about past civilizations and events even though they didn't observe them themselves.

Amo2 said:

YEC's faith is in God's word as plainly stated. Deep time evolutionary faith, is in the speculations of fallen humanities best guesses concerning that which cannot be observed or tested. Which speculations are and have been proved wrong over and again, and are heavily supported and or influenced by a great many non bible believers and atheists.

Click to expand...

Really? Where can I see this groundbreaking work?

Amo2 said:

Nevertheless, for professed bible believing Christians, the Apostle Paul makes a very clear and pointed statement.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Those who choose to ignore God regarding that which He has made, are in fact without excuse for doing so. Today we see much more clearly, the once invisible things of creation, and they unquestionably point to a level of complexity that screams design very loudly and clearly. So loudly and clearly, that those who reject this most obvious truth, are without excuse before God. As guilty today of changing "the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things", as the idol worshippers of old were.

Click to expand...

Are you actually saying someone like me, a Christian and a scientist, isn't actually a Christian because I'm not a YEC?

Job 33:6 said:

What do you mean, they move on from verse 2? The earth was there before verse 2. So how does that make sense to YEC? They just start the age of the earth after it has form but for whatever reason ignore whatever time the earth was around without form?

I could argue that the earth is 1 week old, and simply say that I count last Wednesday (my birthday) and forward and don't count any time before that. But how does that actually make any sense if I were to argue that the earth was 1 week old?

Click to expand...

I already explained what I mean. They do not attempt to explain that which the scriptures do not address. They move on to the creation account which Genesis does actually address and describe. The creation which replaced whatever one might imagine the earth was before the creation described in Genesis. This is not rocket science. They simply do not speculate regarding that which cannot be scientifically observed, tested, and or revealed from holy scripture. Not that I know of in any case. If they do, they no doubt leave all speculations, in that exact category. Since that is all they can ever be.

I say again, it is those of the deep time faith, who seek to explain such unobservable or testable theories. YEC's address the young earth described in holy scripture according to their faith. As opposed of course to deep time and or old earth faith. Deep timers are of course free to try and impose their faith upon or within holy scripture, though such must be conjecture only, as scripture nowhere plainly states any such thing regarding the present creation within which we exist. Which scripture declares replaced that which you seem to be so very interested in. Please do continue your chosen persuit of knowledge in this area as you wish.

I simply am not very interested in a time when the earth was formless and void. What is there to be interested in? Much ado about nothing it seems.

Void - a large hole or empty space:

void

adjective​

1. Containing no matter; empty.
2. Not occupied; unfilled.
3. Completely lacking; devoid: synonym: empty

Void - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

A void is empty space, nothingness, zero, zilch. A place that's void of all life forms has no sign of animals, plants, or people.

www.vocabulary.com

A void is empty space, nothingness, zero, zilch. A place that's void of all life forms has no sign of animals, plants, or people.

You may recognize void from the Old Testament passage describing creation: "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep." In other words, nothing was there: pure emptiness. When you void something or make it void, you make it legally invalid, and that kind of void often goes with null. You might tell Cinderella, "If you're not back by midnight, that arrangement with the pumpkin and the mice is null and void."

Click to expand...

The Barbarian said:

Dr. Coffin was a devout Seventh-Day Adventist, a firm believer in a young Earth, based on his religious beliefs.

https://encyclopedia.adventist.org/article?id=AAGA

The actual statement was as a witness in McLean vs. Arkansas Board of Education.
McLean v. Arkansas Bd. of Ed., 529 F. Supp. 1255 (E.D. Ark. 1982)

Click to expand...

Thank you.

Amo2 said:

Deep time scenarios regarding that which cannot be observed and or tested, are necessarily then, every bit as faith based as that of YEC's faith in a literal or historical rendering of the Genesis creation account.

Click to expand...

Findings of very old Earth not only can be tested, they are tested regularly. Would you like some examples?

Amo2 said:

I already explained what I mean. They do not attempt to explain that which the scriptures do not address. They move on to the creation account which Genesis does actually address and describe. The creation which replaced whatever one might imagine the earth was before the creation described in Genesis. This is not rocket science. They simply do not speculate regarding that which cannot be scientifically observed, tested, and or revealed from holy scripture. Not that I know of in any case. If they do, they no doubt leave all speculations, in that exact category. Since that is all they can ever be.

I say again, it is those of the deep time faith, who seek to explain such unobservable or testable theories. YEC's address the young earth described in holy scripture according to their faith. As opposed of course to deep time and or old earth faith. Deep timers are of course free to try and impose their faith upon or within holy scripture, though such must be conjecture only, as scripture nowhere plainly states any such thing regarding the present creation within which we exist. Which scripture declares replaced that which you seem to be so very interested in. Please do continue your chosen persuit of knowledge in this area as you wish.

I simply am not very interested in a time when the earth was formless and void. What is there to be interested in? Much ado about nothing it seems.

Click to expand...

That's not actually true. YECs argue that the earth is 6,000 years old, which is to say that they assume the earth did not exist before the 6 days of Genesis. However, if we look directly at scripture:

Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—

We see that the text doesn't say that the earth began to exist when God began to create it. Rather the text only tells us that it was formless. And to that we can see that it doesn't tell us how long it was formless before that time. Or how long it had aged before God began to create it.

Hi
There was a creation before the flood wich was destroyed in the flood except for Noah and everything on the ark.
After the flood God began a new creation the only thing he needed to create was man in the image of God everything else was on the ark the first man he created was Israel the man of flesh the man of flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God only the spiritual man so God began a new creation through Jesus Christ we are now in the 6th day of that creation awaiting the return of Christ let us pray it will be soon.

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

Hi
There was a creation before the flood wich was destroyed in the flood except for Noah and everything on the ark.
After the flood God began a new creation the only thing he needed to create was man in the image of God everything else was on the ark the first man he created was Israel the man of flesh the man of flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God only the spiritual man so God began a new creation through Jesus Christ we are now in the 6th day of that creation awaiting the return of Christ let us pray it will be soon.

Love and Peace
Dave

Click to expand...

Dave, you have said this several times. Could you give scriptural support for your idea that God began a new creation after the Flood? He didn't create Israel; He chose Israel out of all the nations to be His Old Testament people. They were the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and not a new creation, like Adam was.

Hi David
Thank you for you post there so many scriptures that relate to creation I will give a few.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work

So what was the Father and son working on if it was not the creation of man in his image don't forget the first Adam died before the flood when Noah stepped of the Ark there was no man in the image of God I believe the word man should be understood as mankind.
The man in the image of God is Jesus Christ he is the head his body the multitude of believers he shall present to the Father on his return what do the scriptur say

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

It says in our image and our likeness he dose not say my image and my likeness

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

Hi David
Thank you for you post there so many scriptures that relate to creation I will give a few.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work

Click to expand...

Thanks Dave. Yes, there are many Scriptures referring to God's Creation, and to His new creation, but none of them says that He started a new creation after the flood.

davetaff said:

So what was the Father and son working on if it was not the creation of man in his image don't forget the first Adam died before the flood when Noah stepped of the Ark there was no man in the image of God I believe the word man should be understood as mankind.

Click to expand...

I know we have had this discussion before, but all human beings are made in the image of God. That is the reason the bible gives for murder being wrong:

“"Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.” (Ge 9:6 NKJV)

If only Adam was in God's image, Genesis 9:6 would make no sense, because Adam was dead by then.

davetaff said:

The man in the image of God is Jesus Christ he is the head his body the multitude of believers he shall present to the Father on his return what do the scriptur say

Click to expand...

I agree with that.

davetaff said:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

It says in our image and our likeness he dose not say my image and my likeness

Click to expand...

I agree with that, too.

davetaff said:

Love and Peace
Dave

Click to expand...

Hi David
You said
Thanks Dave. Yes, there are many Scriptures referring to God's Creation, and to His new creation, but none of them says that He started a new creation after the flood.

You are right of course so I modify my statement God continued his creation after the flood the end result mankind in the image of God which would be Jesus Christ at his second coming this is the new creation that Christ began.

You said
I know we have had this discussion before, but all human beings are made in the image of God. That is the reason the bible gives for murder being wrong:

“"Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.” (Ge 9:6 NKJV

Sorry David but I can not agree but I am not in the image of God and neither are you I think the verse you quoted refers to Israel and Christ all human beings were created on day 5 and were part of all creeping things think of Peters vision of the sheet full of creeping things depicting the gentiles.
When God said let's make man in our image there were quite a few human beings on the planet so God picked one and called him Adam in the same way he picked Abraham to be the father of Israel Gods method of creation never changes.

You said

davetaff said:

The man in the image of God is Jesus Christ he is the head his body the multitude of believers he shall present to the Father on his return what do the scriptur say

Click to expand...

I agree with that.

davetaff said:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

It says in our image and our likeness he dose not say my image and my likeness
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I agree with that, too.

If you agree with the above how can you say thatwe mere men are in the image of God nobody has seen God so nobody can say we are in his image like I have said many times before the word man must be understood as mankind
.
Love and Peace
Dave