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If forever punishment is true and if all dead babies go to Heaven...

Beth77

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...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
 

Spiritual Jew

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...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
Wrong. Why do you think that? I'm not following your logic here. Scripture teaches that there will be eternal torment for unbelievers, so why deny it? Coming up with these ridiculous scenarios can't change what scripture teaches.

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire which was originally "prepared for the devil and his angels". Clearly, the devil will be eternally tormented there, so why would that not be the case for unbelievers as well?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice in Matthew 25:46 that Jesus said unbelievers will depart from Him "into the eternal fire" where they will "go away to eternal punishment". If they were going to just cease to exist, that would not be described as "eternal punishment" in "eternal fire". Unbelievers already think that they will cease to exist when they die and they accept that and are fine with that, so being annihilated would not be a punishment for them.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
Even unborn babies need a Saviour.

Whether every unborn baby goes to Heaven, we do not know, the Scripture does not say as far as I know.

Besides, God can change the heart of a parent who wants kills their child, if He wishes.

Whatever God does, it is just and fair, no one will get what they don't deserve.

Always remember that God ways are way above ours, and we often do not understand or comprehand His ways.
 
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trophy33

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Always remember that God ways are way above ours, and we often do not understand or comprehand His ways.
Meaning that He is better than us, not worse.

See the words of Jesus:
"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
Mt 7:11
 
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Matt5

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It is likely that the hell with weeping and gnashing of teeth for eternity is not really for eternity. I explain below.

If we look at the parable of the sower and it's interpretation by Jesus, we find there is an air-gap. There is no way to go from the parable to the interpretation without incorporating other real world information. That means the parable doesn't mean exactly what it says. We see this in other kinds of language.

In the case of hell, we find there are different kinds of hell. The hell with weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the return of Jesus. The parable of the talents points the way. Those too lazy to avoid the harvests are tossed into hell. But harvests are nuclear wars. And death by radiation looks a lot like the hell from the Bible with lots of screaming and gnashing of the teeth due to the pain. The pain and screaming goes on for days until death finally arrives. HBO's Chernobyl shows the effects of radiation. If the pain level is at 10, then each second is eternity.

So the real life hell is probably death by radiation with pain level 10 for a few days before death finally occurs.

Or the parable of the sower is really about farming issues.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
The age of accountability is a made up doctrine because pastors want the offerings not of individuals but of families.
 
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NextLevel

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...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
Not a conundrum for the denominations that believe in infant baptism.
 
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fhansen

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...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
At some point in our existence each individual must choose for themselves: good over evil, truth over falsehood, God over no God. Jesus tortures no one: our torture would be self-imposed, as the rejection of love resulting in existence apart from it, apart from Him, IOW. We reap what we sew. And killing is, simply, always intrinsically evil by its nature.
 
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fhansen

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Of course not. In many cases, it is mercy. For example when an animal suffers.
Sorry, I thought it should be obvious here that I’m talking about the 6th commandment: murder, in the taking of human life.
 
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trophy33

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Sorry, I thought it would be obvious here that I’m talking about the 5th commandment. Murder, in the taking of human life.
It is still not inherently evil in all cases. For example in defense. And I personally am not against euthanasia or abortion in some specific contexts, in which we are talking about dignity and mercy.
 
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fhansen

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It is still not inherently evil in all cases. For example in defense. And I personally am not against euthanasia or abortion in some specific contexts, in which we are talking about dignity and mercy.
:sigh:Yes...we can get into the just war theory and using lethal force if necessary to defend innocent lives but we have to start with the 6th commandment -it's there for a reason- and not look for excuses to justify the taking of innocent lives which would be the case in the OP scenario. The comandment tells us that we have no right to play God in that area-that the gift of life is inherently good and sacred and we certainly shouldn't presume to know the eternal destiny of those whose lives we take-we're not that smart-and we don't commit evil as a means to overcome evil. We need to be thoroughly prolife to every extent possible.
 
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trophy33

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:sigh:Yes...we can get into the just war theory and using lethal force if necessary to defend innocent lives but we have to start with the 6th commandment -it's there for a reason- and not look for excuses to justify the taking of innocent lives which would be the case in the OP scenario. The comandment tells us that we have no right to play God in that area-that the gift of life is inherently good and sacred and we certainly shouldn't presume to know the eternal destiny of those whose lives we take-we're not that smart-and we don't commit evil as a means to overcome evil. We need to be thoroughly prolife to every extent possible.
The point of the OP is to demonstrate that if somebody believes in both eternal punishment doctrine and "babies go to heaven" doctrine, then abortion would be actually the safest bet to safe our children from suffering.

The point of the OP is not to seriously promote abortions or killing infants.
 
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fhansen

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The point of the OP is to demonstrate that if somebody believes in both eternal punishment doctrine and "babies go to heaven" doctrine, then abortion would be actually the safest bet to safe our children from suffering.

The point of the OP is not to seriously promote abortions or killing infants.
The person would need to have absolute, perfect knowledge that the baby would benefit-and that babies necessarily go to heaven-and such knowledge is not available to us which is why presuming that we do have it is obviously quite dangerous and foolhardy. Either way we'd be opposing the will of God who gave it life in the first place. The 6th commandment is not foolishness.
 
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KevinT

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These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
I think you are on the right track. The tricky part, in my opinion, is the difference between a punishment with eternal consequences and a punishment that is perpetually ongoing for eternity.

The Bible is ambiguous on this point. There are passages that can be read one way, and other passages that seem to indicate the opposite. Regardless of what various churches have taught over time, I think we can trust the One True God to do the right thing. The God that so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, is going to do the right thing. I have my opinion of what that right thing will be, but even if my understanding is wrong, I trust that God is not a monster that loves to torture people in a way that violates our God-given sense of justice.

Best wishes,

KT
 
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Maria Billingsley

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...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
I am not so sure that one needs to go as far as this to prove we have a righteous and loving Father but, there you have it, the pushback on the doctrine of original sin by Augustine. I believe if we simply exercise just a bit of common sense plus, taking into consideration God's nature and character, we can safely conclude that He would not damn the innocent.
Blessings.

Last minute thoughts...
How our Father chooses to lay judgment on the wicked is really none of our concern. We should be focused on what His will is for us.
Love one another as He loves us.
 
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fhansen

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I am not so sure that one needs to go as far as this to prove we have a righteous and loving Father but, there you have it, the pushback on the doctrine of original sin by Augustine. I believe if we simply exercise just a bit of common sense plus, taking into consideration God's nature and character, we can safely conclude that He would not damn the innocent.
Blessings.
And yet we could never use that as an excuse to kill the innocent of course.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I think you are on the right track. The tricky part, in my opinion, is the difference between a punishment with eternal consequences and a punishment that is perpetually ongoing for eternity.

The Bible is ambiguous on this point. There are passages that can be read one way, and other passages that seem to indicate the opposite. Regardless of what various churches have taught over time, I think we can trust the One True God to do the right thing. The God that so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, is going to do the right thing. I have my opinion of what that right thing will be, but even if my understanding is wrong, I trust that God is not a monster that loves to torture people in a way that violates our God-given sense of justice.

Best wishes,

KT
Yes, the way we read the bible results in us judging just who God is.

I wonder how God will respond?
 
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d taylor

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...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?
-
The punishment is not like some type of being whipped for all eternity. The punishment is that the unbeliever remains a sinner for all eternity and is separated from The Life of God and being able to enjoy life away from the sin curse Adam brought into the world.
 
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