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Trump & Religious Principles

Injeun

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I like to think that support for Trump comes from not taking the Bible seriously enough. And I think if you look at demographic and sociological data, that bears evidence of truth. Because what passes for Evangelicalism in the US is often little more than ethnonationalism with a thin veneer of religion.
That would boil down to only Atheists doing the voting because the majority of Democrats (65%) also identify as Christian. Everyone else besides Atheists would have to sit it out because neither candidate measures up to biblical standards.
 
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Andrewn

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462539417_3903355309992838_4988358592422347809_n.jpg
 
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FireDragon76

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That would boil down to only Atheists doing the voting because the majority of Democrats (65%) also identify as Christian. Everyone else besides Atheists would have to sit it out because neither candidate measures up to biblical standards.

The 65 percent of Democrats that are Christians are not necessarily white Evangelical Christians. For instance, I belong to a denomination that is Democrat leaning, and many other mainline Protestant denominations (who are not Evangelicals necessarily) have at least a substantial number of Democrats.
 
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FireDragon76

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Very few really believe he was sent by God as a prophetic figure. Kristin Kobes Du Mez and other historians have written about the phenomenon of the origins of Trumpism, or American white palangenetic nationalism. It has to do with the old American mythos of the "half savage" that takes on the perceived enemies of white, Christian people. He does the dirty things they can't do so that the "elect" can remain pure. In that way, the origins of MAGA support among Evangelicals are rooted in sociology and history, not religion.
 
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Injeun

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The 65 percent of Democrats that are Christians are not necessarily white Evangelical Christians. For instance, I belong to a denomination that is Democrat leaning, and many other mainline Protestant denominations (who are not Evangelicals necessarily) have at least a substantial number of Democrats.
I believe in God and the bible. But I don't take stock in any bible based religion. From Genesis to the Apostles, the bible teaches one gospel, one Christ, and one God. But bible based religion today is comprised of tens of thousands of different denominations, each with their own interpretation and understanding of the gospel. So they each have their own gospel, Christ, and God. So the bible stands as a silent witness against bible based religion or what's known as traditional Christianity. This is self evident more than my opinion. They are the Church's of men, attempting to approximate what was in the past as if it were so today. But they screwed up and each went at it according to their own reckoning. So what they wind up with isn't Christianity as if it were the work of God, but babel because it's the presumption of man. Not to step on anyone's toes, but that's just reality. For all his obvious faults, at least Trump doesn't pretend to represent God.
 
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FireDragon76

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I believe in God and the bible. But I don't take stock in any bible based religion. From Genesis to the Apostles, the bible teaches one gospel, one Christ, and one God. But bible based religion today is comprised of tens of thousands of different denominations, each with their own interpretation and understanding of the gospel. So they each have their own gospel, Christ, and God. So the bible stands as a silent witness against bible based religion or what's known as traditional Christianity. This is self evident more than my opinion. They are the Church's of men, attempting to approximate what was in the past as if it were so today. But they screwed up and each went at it according to their own reckoning. So what they wind up with isn't Christianity as if it were the work of God, but babel because it's the presumption of man. Not to step on anyone's toes, but that's just reality. For all his obvious faults, at least Trump doesn't pretend to represent God.

Doesn't that critique apply to your own religion, just the same?

I am not a defender of fundamentalist religion of any sort. Nor do I think my church, or any church, has all the right answers when it comes to God. I think that kind of thinking is naive.
 
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Fervent

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Can anyone reconcile the figure of Donald Trump, the ever-patriotic guy with good command of economic principles, & negotiating skills with the fact that his bullying behavior from the businessworld to staff to the constant denigrating of persons or groups of people in the worst possible language stands out so much. As a populist he just throws away support from so many groups by just signaling that everyone in the world is inferior to him. All this seems inconsistent with the 10 Commandments & other concepts of just common decency. It's like he's one of the Pharisees who were pretending to be holy but really were more about bullying the common folk.
His bullying ways is a lot of what draws people to him, because historically democrats have said all kinds of vile things about republicans and the republicans responded politely and tried to focus on policies. Remember how much of the conversation was about how dumb W was during his presidency? Trump played the media in such a way that many of their usual tactics at undermining "conservatives" backfired on them and strengthened the support of his base. But it all traces back to Nixon's southern strategy, as the republican party has abandoned historic conservative principles as anything but talking points. Trump didn't create the culture of demeaning your political adversaries, he was just willing to stoop lower and attack back when he was attacked. And a lot of that was because in 2016 the media built him up in the primaries because they seemed to think he had the worst shot against Hilary. They just didn't realize how much of a monster he is.
 
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stevevw

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Got it.

Because he never claims to use *his* Christian principles to determine his positions.
Then your setting a high standard for Trump compared to every other politician because no other politicians state that they use Christian principles for their position yet they are Christians. Would you say Harris has no religious principles.
Probably because there *isn't* a universal Christian principle for abortion. In my country we have fought about abortion for as far back as I remember and Christians have been the majority component of those ON BOTH SIDES.
No abortion was nearly universially opposed in US and more western nations history. I has only changed in recent times. There is absolutely no Christian basis for abortion. The new age religions that support abortion are part of the progressive ideology that has crept into some churches.

The only issue that Christians will support is if its a life threatening situation which is very rare. But apart from that there is no biblical basis. So any Church thats arguing abortion is ok is going against the bible. Its not a case of unclear messaging. Its plain and clear that abortion is anti Christian.

But heres the illogical point to your arguement. You are appealing to a varied and non universal belief about abortion as though Christians can both support and be against abortion at the same time and its still Christain principles.

If thats the case then how can you even measure Christain principles to hold Trump to when according to you there is no basis for Christain beliefs on issues like abortion because theres no truth to it.
Evaluating Trump starts with his own actions, not those of generic/universal Christians. If he actually had made such a claim, then we might want to evaluate it for sincerity, but his record lacks even that.
If it starts with actions which I agree more than just words then some of Trumps actions support Christian principles. What would be evidence his words or his actions. If he did not say anything but brought about Christian principles into government. Or he spoke Christian principles but did the opposite.
 
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Stephen3141

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I would disagree with your initial description of Trump.

He is not some new Rennaisance Man, with broad knowledge of all sorts
of individual disciplines, and vast knowledge. (I know that you did not use
these words, but Trump sometimes presents himself this way.)

For some reason, Trump has latched onto his own (perceived) ability at
negotiating. BUT, negotiation does not work with the hard sciences, nor
does it work with Judea-Christian moral-ethical principles (which are
historically set).

Trump does not really understand the hard sciences.
Trump does not understand the health sciences.
Trump certainly does not understand Christian morality-ethics.
You could say that Trump does not accept the Epistemological necessity
of the divided middle: that properly formed concepts are either TRUE
or FALSE. Trump flips between contradictory conclusions, with no seeming
guilt or obligation to determine truth.

The problem (I assert) is NOT that Trump is an enlightened man, who tries to
impose this enlightenment with crude power and threats.

Rather, Trump does not recognize truth, and tries to impose his will with
crude power and threats. This is what he calls "negotiating".

Because Trump cannot recognize any value other than his own superior
negotiating skills, he CANNOT recognize the professionalism and knowledge
of those who have given their lives to pursuing knowledge and understanding,
in different technical fields. Trump cannot understand that, at a certain point,
established facts cannot be negotiated away. And Trump becomes enraged at
technical experts, who will stand by their professional training and discipline,
even to the point of disagreeing with Trump.

This, I think, is more the picture of Trump, that we should be discussing.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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This, I think, is more the picture of Trump, that we should be discussing.
But where do we begin and to what end? It seems half the people in the country dispute you picture in favor of an idealized icon or even savior of our present ills created by democrats and liberals. I think al we can do at this point is pay attention and correlate his decisions with actual results. And this is where truth telling will be so important.

Take something like deportations. If it is carried out on the massive scale promised there will certainly be unintended consequences. Can we still rely on Reuters and WSJ?
 
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