VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

Oseas · Jul 29, 2024

Isaiah 59:14-21

14 The Judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for Truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

15 Yea, Truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

16 And He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore HIS ARM brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of Vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

19 So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

Oseas · Jul 29, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Jesus proves you wrong in Rev 3:10 (ESV): "I will keep you from the hour of trial." ---- The "hour of trial" is Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:27), the 7-year Trib.

Revelation 12:14 -> 14 And to the woman were given TWO WINGS of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished (by the Word of GOD- the Old and New Testament)for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.-->the dragon-Revelation 13:11-, the MAN of sin, son of perdition-2 Thes.2:3-4, who will manifest himself as God, as messiah, a false messiah of the Jews, an esoteric and kabbalistic and spiritist messiah-John 5:43-47.

In fact the battle is against trhee unclean spirits like frogs, a satanic trinitry-Revelation 16:13-15

Jeffrey Bowden · Jul 29, 2024

keras said:
Wrong;
Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 prove that Gods holy people are present when the Great Trib starts.

Wrong;
Peter Prophesied a Judgment of fire, to test everybody, 1 Peter 4:12

Wrong;
1 Thess 1:10 does not mention anyone being raptured, or heaven.

Revelation 20:11-15 specifically informs us when the dead will be Judged; AFTER the Millennium.

The saints in the Trib are all new converts. Rev 13:8 (NIV): All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast. ---- All on Earth are unbelievers, unless they come to their senses, repent and turn to Jesus. Those are the new converts, and that's who the folks are in Rev 13:7. All martyrs become the GM, from seals 2 and 4, and beyond.

You are missing the context of 1 Peter 4. The whole chapter is about coping with the trials and tribulation of being a disciple of Peter. Peter was counseling his disciples.

1 Th 1:10 mentions the rapture in the words, "Delivers us." In the Bible, "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

Therefore, "Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 does mean we are raptured. All raptures in the Bible go straight to Heaven:

2 Kings 2:11 (ESV): And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Oseas · Jul 29, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
The saints in the Trib are all new converts. Rev 13:8 (NIV): All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast. ---- All on Earth are unbelievers, unless they come to their senses, repent and turn to Jesus. Those are the new converts, and that's who the folks are in Rev 13:7. All martyrs become the GM, from seals 2 and 4, and beyond.

What is written above will NEVER happen, but NEVER, there will not be converts in the Trib, quite the opposite: Revelation 13:2, the dragon gives to his main partner, the Beast of sea, his power, and his seat in JERUSALEM and great authority, even so one of the 7 heads of the Beast of sea will be wounded to death by this Sword, the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, but his deadly wound will be healed: and ALL THE WORLD will be wondered after the MAN Beast.

4 And they -ALL THE WORLD- will worship(ped) the dragon which gave power unto the Beast of sea, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make war with him? --> Michael and his messengers are able to make war with the Beast. AAND HERE IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH THAT CAST OF DEMONS: Revelation 19:19-21

19 And I saw the Beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the Beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the Beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant(THEY WHICH YOU SAY WILL CONVERTS), WILL BE slain with the Sword of him that sat upon the horse, which Sword proceeded out of his MOUTH: and all the fowls will be filled with their flesh.

keras · Jul 29, 2024

This thread seems to be fairly evenly divided between those who believe in a rapture removal to heaven, before any dramatic world disasters and those who do not believe in a rapture.
I do not believe that God has planned to take His people to heaven at any time and I have written many posts and articles proving it, mostly by showing How He will protect them and bless them.

As a onetime rapture believer myself, I can sympathize with people who have been taught that theory; often as the only end times event for us Christians to expect. Any change in their beliefs means alienation from their church and most often from friends and family as well. A very hard call to make!
Also it means having to admit they have been deceived and need to repent, especially if they have taught a rapture to others.

What is evident to me, is that no amount of scriptural proof against a rapture can change the minds of those locked into the rapture belief.
The fact that it isn’t actually prophesied anywhere in the Bible, the fact that many prophesies do make clear what God does plan for His people, makes no difference.
God tells us why this is: Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 42:18-20, 1 Corinthians 3:18-20

Only by the power of the Holy Spirit, can people be released from their beliefs in false teachings.

Paul does say that we Christians should not be in the dark about God’s plans for us, however it seems that only a few will understand the truth: Daniel 12:10b
So, if the rapture is for real, then Daniels prophecy is wrong?????

Jeffrey Bowden · Jul 29, 2024

keras said:
Oseas, this is a discussion Forum, not the place to post lengthy scriptures, we all know our Bibles. The KJV is an old version, with many errors.
Your posts become tiresome and just a waste of space.

I posted that all the dead will be Judged after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15
Do you reject that? If so, you as a bad as Jeffery Bowden, who makes the Prophesies mean whatever he wants.

keras said:
You see things that simply aren't there. That is a kind of mental problem you have.

You fail to see what the Lord actually does plan for His people, to be His witnesses, to display His glory to the nations and to proclaim the coming Kingdom.
Going to heaven is not an option and can never happen. Ezekiel 39:27 ....My people will exemplify My Holiness to the many nations.

You criticize when you can't refute.

You are ignoring the different uses of deliverance in the Bible and how they relate to "delivers us." The applied use of deliverance is validated by Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology: "Delivers us" in this context means we are “snatched away," meaning "raptured: "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")."

Therefore, I'm not imagining anything. "Delivers us" has the applicable meaning of "snatched away." 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture, wherein we are snatched away directly to Heaven. How do I know that? All raptures in the Bible go straight to Heaven: 2 Kings 2:11 (ESV): And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Refute that, if you can. Your criticism is childish.

keras said:
You fail to see what the Lord actually does plan for His people, to be His witnesses, to display His glory to the nations and to proclaim the coming Kingdom.
Going to heaven is not an option and can never happen. Ezekiel 39:27 ....My people will exemplify My Holiness to the many nations.

George95 · Jul 29, 2024

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I am closing this thread for Staff Review. The amount of flaming and goading and personal attacks is unacceptable.

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VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

Oseas

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Oseas

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Jeffrey Bowden

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Oseas

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keras

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Jeffrey Bowden

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George95

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