Conservative or Liberal literally........

May

Pommer said:

It must be nice to have someone who can articulate one’s thoughts better, (of course this has nothing to do with what I posted), but one has to take what one can find and maybe wait for seven plus weeks.

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Maybe it’s not that most people who are supporting Trump think he’s that great or are abandoning conservatism in favor of populism it’s just that the alternative is just that bad

BPPLEE said:

May

Maybe it’s not that most people who are supporting Trump think he’s that great or are abandoning conservatism in favor of populism it’s just that the alternative is just that bad

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If Mister Schneider has given you a fair picture of the what his version of what “the alternative“ is, maybe you should look elsewhere for what the alternative actually is?

We’ve been lurching ever forward for about 247 years with the bicameral, two party system and suddenly that’s not “good enough” anymore?

Whatever Mister Schneider might think, it’s certainly not “conservative”.

Pommer said:

If Mister Schneider has given you a fair picture of the what his version of what “the alternative“ is, maybe you should look elsewhere for what the alternative actually is?

We’ve been lurching ever forward for about 247 years with the bicameral, two party system and suddenly that’s not “good enough” anymore?

Whatever Mister Schneider might think, it’s certainly not “conservative”.

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Let’s leave Mr Schneider out of it and focus on the last 3 years. That’s the alternative that people find abhorrent

Tropical Wilds said:

Not remotely the same. It’s like comparing the dental and oral surgical experiments they did in concentration camps with going to a dentist today to get a root canal.

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Well, opinions vary.

Reasonably Sane said:

Well, opinions vary.

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Opinions, yes. Facts, no. You can keep your opinion, I’ll keep my facts.

Tropical Wilds said:

Opinions, yes. Facts, no. You can keep your opinion, I’ll keep my facts.

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But all you gave me was an opinion, hence my response.

BPPLEE said:

Let’s leave Mr Schneider out of it and focus on the last 3 years. That’s the alternative that people find abhorrent

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Oh they’re people who’ve been mad since Nixon’s days too, no doubt.

All the money is going to the very tippy-top and we’re still arguing over who’s in the White House and who should be !

My point being, that it’s only politics, best not to take it too seriously.

Reasonably Sane said:

But all you gave me was an opinion, hence my response.

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The working a job being not at all comparable to slavery is not an opinion, it’s an objective fact. Claiming otherwise is either a profound lack of understanding to what slavery is or a deliberate attempt to be provocative for the sake of being provocative… Both assessments being a very, very, very, very generous assumption (on my part) to begin with.

Tropical Wilds said:

The working a job being not at all comparable to slavery is not an opinion, it’s an objective fact. Claiming otherwise is either a profound lack of understanding to what slavery is or a deliberate attempt to be provocative for the sake of being provocative… Both assessments being a very, very, very, very generous assumption (on my part) to begin with.

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When I see people working all day at multiple jobs and living in squalor, and often for extremely abusive bosses, how is that different than slavery?

One might say, "well, they can quit." Well, can they - really? Technically they can. But in the REAL answer is this: Why do so many people stay stuck in dead end jobs? It's because they don't believe they can quit.

i.e. psychologically, they are very much like a slave. I noticed that your "fact" is not backed up with any description of the differences between slaves and employees. Without that information, you are merely stating an opinion.

Did you know that some slaves were treated as beloved family members? Some owners kept them because they knew (or at least believed) that their condition would be worse if they were set free. And in the deep south that would have been correct. A "free" black man walking down the street was frowned upon. And let's be clear: They were often times lynched even deep into the 20th century.

Reasonably Sane said:

When I see people working all day at multiple jobs and living in squalor, and often for extremely abusive bosses, how is that different than slavery?

One might say, "well, they can quit." Well, can they - really? Technically they can. But in the REAL answer is this: Why do so many people stay stuck in dead end jobs? It's because they don't believe they can quit.

i.e. psychologically, they are very much like a slave. I noticed that your "fact" is not backed up with any description of the differences between slaves and employees. Without that information, you are merely stating an opinion.

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There’s a big difference between “I don’t like my job, I can’t quit because I need money” and being a slave.

A slave, who has no rights, legally and socially, who can’t vote, who isn’t paid, who is bought and sold like property, with no standardized working day, hours, vacation, health insurance, not even the ability to have kids, family, marriage on their own terms, no retirement, no social security, no unemployment, no ability to own their own property, bank accounts, credit accounts, no education, no higher education, no ability keep their own culture or faith, or leave if they don’t want to be there…

I mean really, if you can’t see the difference between working a job or two to sustain yourself and some frills in your lifestyle and having to maintain that job or some sort of income to maintain that lifestyle and slavery… Yikes. My 14 year old can clearly articulate the difference between holding down a job and being a slave. There is no reason a grown adult should be unable to do so.

Reasonably Sane said:

Did you know that some slaves were treated as beloved family members? Some owners kept them because they knew (or at least believed) that their condition would be worse if they were set free. And in the deep south that would have been correct. A "free" black man walking down the street was frowned upon. And let's be clear: They were often times lynched even deep into the 20th century.

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At the end of the day, a slave treated well is still a slave. They may be treated well objectively when compared to others, but that doesn’t mean they’re “like family.” I don’t treat my family members to confining them to forced service to support my lifestyle and interests. Slaves don’t sleep in quarters as nice as family, they don’t eat the same food, they don’t have rights to property or money upon death like family, they don’t even control what happens to them or where they work after the family dies.

So saying a slave is “like family” is both inaccurate and white washing what happened to make it more acceptable and palatable. It is like when people say their pets are their children or their car is their baby. They might be better cared for than other people’s pets or cars, but ultimately it’s just words. When the chips are down, nobody leaves their kids in a burning house to rescue the dog or car.

Tropical Wilds said:

There’s a big difference between “I don’t like my job, I can’t quit because I need money” and being a slave.

A slave, who has no rights, legally and socially, who can’t vote, who isn’t paid, who is bought and sold like property, with no standardized working day, hours, vacation, health insurance, not even the ability to have kids, family, marriage on their own terms, no retirement, no social security, no unemployment, no ability to own their own property, bank accounts, credit accounts, no education, no higher education, no ability keep their own culture or faith, or leave if they don’t want to be there…

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Let me cover those points:
1. not all types of slaves can be bought and sold.
2. many types of employees do not have standardized working hours or days.
3. Many simply can not afford to take vacations they are entitled to.
3. Many people working multiple part time jobs have no health insurance. Regarding the ability to have kids, the only people that don't are those that are either sterile, or really, really ugly.
4. Many "free" people do not feel they can have kids or a family because they can't afford it and they are too busy trying to make rent.
5. A LOT of people have no retirement
6. Unemployment and social security are a new thing, and not universally available. They are also government provided. i.e. outside the scope of this discussion.
7. Many poor people have no bank account. In fact, it can be harder today than it was 20 years ago. Same for credit accounts.
8. Regarding education, I return to number one above. Not all slaves live under the same conditions - just like employees.
9. Regarding faith, I will give you that one, but with a caveat: When I worked in Seattle, mere mention of my Christian faith could have gotten me fired. Yet when I moved to Kentucky, we had a pizza day at my new job and before we cracked the boxes open, the boss prayed over the meal.
10. I addressed that one in my post before. Employees "technically" can leave, but often times don't "think" they can. And it can be for a myriad of reasons. In my job they called it "golden handcuffs". And what it really means is not that you are rich. It means you make a very good income, but have amassed so much debt for the car, the boat, the McMansion that you CAN'T quit because those kinds of jobs don't grow on trees. So you stay stuck as a ever fattening cubicle rat, quite literally with a "slave" attitude, afraid to say or do anything that might tick people off.

Again, I'm not saying being an employee is EXACTLY like slavery. I'm really saying it is one of the "softer" forms of slavery. After all, nobody is truly a slave to another person unless you don't have the ability to unalive yourself. It's why it is said to not fear him who can kill the body, but fear him who can kill both the body and soul...

Something I've said for well over a decade regarding the US education system: Public schools are a 19th century paradigm that outlived its usefulness in the early 21st century. Their primary purpose today is to supply free daycare for parents that have sold themselves into indentured slavery.