Conservative or Liberal literally........

[rturner76]

That is the best way to look at it - but it would require people to be informed - and they don't like doing that.

It's easier to just check the box with the letter of the party you support.

Yes. it's about batting for the home team and not so much going to bat for what one's belief system would normally find to be important.

 

[Pommer]

Excellent observation. That is the main reason that I posted it the way I did. With total flip-flops by both major parties, how can we be certain what is a conservative or liberal position? Do we go by the definition of the words (label)? If not, with all of this criss-crossing of values, how are people to know what agenda they are voting for? Since it can't be deciphered by definition, is it the latest news report, the latest poll, what out neighbor, family, or friends say or what?

My solution to this (maybe not a solution but it may be helpful, I certainly don't have all the answers). We should vote on an issue-by-issue basis. Regardless of party, what individual supports the things that are most important to me? It also indicates that we must look at each individual who is running instead of just picking a party. I mean, I was raised Minnesota DFL across the board but I wish I could remember the name of a man who was pretty in step with the principles that are most important to me but he was a southern Republican. I wouldn't have been in a position to vote for him but if I was, I would regardless of party.

The two major parties are beginning to switch poles (again).
Democrats will be come the “Conservative Party”, as they defend the legacies of FDR, HST, JFK/LBJ, WJC and BHO from the onslaughts of the (then) Liberal Party of “new ideas”, the GOP (or whatever name they switch to).

Say what you want but Donald Trump took the Republicans away from (real-actual) “conservatism” and substituted right-wing-populism and many still haven’t noticed the switch.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Say what you want but Donald Trump took the Republicans away from (real-actual) “conservatism” and substituted right-wing-populism and many still haven’t noticed the switch.

A lot of "conservatives" have been right-wing populists all along. Maybe not the ones at the top of the party, but the rank and file listening to talk radio.

 

[Pommer]

A lot of "conservatives" have been right-wing populists all along. Maybe not the ones at the top of the party, but the rank and file listening to talk radio.

Populism, (no matter the “flavor”), can only exist to fight [the enemy] of “what’s standing in our way to be the society [we few elites] say you want.

It’s nothing but turtles all the way down from there.

 

[stevil]

I think that the liberals are more concerned with individual freedom while conservative seems to lean less toward individual freedom and more toward business freedom (but it is possible that I am thinking of the progressive view and the capitalist view which advocates more for business freedom).

Well I think there are two main aspects. Social and Economic.
In USA the battleground is mostly on the Social ground, and this is reflected in Christian Forums by seeing that almost all threads in the politics sub forum are about social issues and very rarely about economic issues.

From a social aspect the Liberals want autonomy for the people, they want to allow for and to protect diversity and not allow the majority to dominate the minorities.
Where-as the Conservatives seem to want a homogenous society where everyone thinks and behaves the appropriate and approved way,
In USA that seems to be the White Christian way. Straight, married with 2 kids, a dog, a picket fence, a flag, all going to church on Sundays. They seem to be fearful of people that don't fit that mold, want to outlaw gays and trans, what to stop Mexicans and Muslims from coming in and changing the culture and hue of the country.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Conservative:
averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.

Liberal:
willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.

In all honesty, these are the littoral definitions of "conservative" and "Liberal," according to Oxford.

What philosophy can you in good conscience get behind?

Based on the definition of these concepts alone, I must say that the party that respects people's opinions even when they are different from our own and is open to new ideas, is the party of liberty (freedom).
The party that does not value innovation nor are they open to new ideas sounds like oppression to me.

Do you want to work for oppression or freedom?

What are the benefits of not changing with changing times, and what are the benefits of changing as society changes?
What are the pitfalls of changing with changing times or making no changes or innovations?

Definitions are far too simplistic. Liberal goes back to the Renaissance with a welcoming of new understanding, rationality, science and belief, especially in contrast to a rigid set of doctrines and authority figures. There is optimism in humanity and what we can do.

Conservativism is about holding on to the traditional ways of thinking and doing and honoring authority figures.

Eventually both sides came to see need for change as in Neo-liberal and Neo-conservative.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Conservative:
averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.

Liberal:
willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.

In all honesty, these are the littoral definitions of "conservative" and "Liberal," according to Oxford.

What philosophy can you in good conscience get behind?

Based on the definition of these concepts alone, I must say that the party that respects people's opinions even when they are different from our own and is open to new ideas, is the party of liberty (freedom).
The party that does not value innovation nor are they open to new ideas sounds like oppression to me.

Do you want to work for oppression or freedom?

What are the benefits of not changing with changing times, and what are the benefits of changing as society changes?
What are the pitfalls of changing with changing times or making no changes or innovations?

"Conservative" is a subjective label. I call myself a "classical liberal".

I do believe that most self described conservatives, however, would define themselves as adhering to the idea that "before you tear a fence down, you probably should find out why it was put up in the first place." The conservatives I know are not against change. They are against what one would call "stupid" change. And regarding open mindedness, they would argue that it is best that you are not so open minded that your brains fall out.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Here is a great comparison of Conservative vs liberal, at least at one level.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I prefer a more centrist (less biased) view between Conservative and Liberal.

I think this is a good side by side no inflammatory editorializing.

Conservative vs Liberal - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

What's the difference between Conservative and Liberal? The epithet conservative or liberal is used to describe political and economic views and affiliations. The meaning of 'conservative' or 'liberal' could be different in different contexts - social, economic and political. They also differ in...

www.diffen.com

Comparison chart​

Conservative versus Liberal comparison chart

	Conservative	Liberal
Political Views	Right-wing, anti-federalist. Prefer smaller government, less regulation, most services to be provided by the private sector in a free market, and a literal interpretation of the Constitution.	Left-wing, federalist. Prefer more regulation and services like free universal health care to be provided by the government to all citizens.
Economic Views	Government should tax less and spend less. Cutting spending to balance the budget should be the priority. Higher income earners should have an incentive to invest (credits). Charity is the responsibility of the people.	Government should provide more services to the less fortunate (like health care) and increase taxes if necessary. High-income earners should pay a larger percentage of their income as taxes.
Social Views	Opposed to gay marriage, abortion and embryonic stem cell research. Support the right to bear arms, death penalty, and personal responsibility as an individual.	Gay couples to get equal rights like everyone else (e.g. marriage); abortion should be legal; support embryonic stem cell research. Support restrictions and regulation around the right to bear arms.
Personal Responsibility	Individuals should exercise personal responsibility and it is the governments role to hold them accountable even with severe penalties. Laws are enacted to reflect the best interest of the society as a whole.	The people should look to the government to provide a structure. Laws are enacted to protect every individual for an equal society sometimes at the expense of economic freedom if necessary.

 

[Offline4Better.]

I prefer a more centrist (less biased) view between Conservative and Liberal.

I think this is a good side by side no inflammatory editorializing.

Conservative vs Liberal - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

What's the difference between Conservative and Liberal? The epithet conservative or liberal is used to describe political and economic views and affiliations. The meaning of 'conservative' or 'liberal' could be different in different contexts - social, economic and political. They also differ in...

www.diffen.com

Comparison chart​

Conservative versus Liberal comparison chart

	Conservative	Liberal
Political Views	Right-wing, anti-federalist. Prefer smaller government, less regulation, most services to be provided by the private sector in a free market, and a literal interpretation of the Constitution.	Left-wing, federalist. Prefer more regulation and services like free universal health care to be provided by the government to all citizens.
Economic Views	Government should tax less and spend less. Cutting spending to balance the budget should be the priority. Higher income earners should have an incentive to invest (credits). Charity is the responsibility of the people.	Government should provide more services to the less fortunate (like health care) and increase taxes if necessary. High-income earners should pay a larger percentage of their income as taxes.
Social Views	Opposed to gay marriage, abortion and embryonic stem cell research. Support the right to bear arms, death penalty, and personal responsibility as an individual.	Gay couples to get equal rights like everyone else (e.g. marriage); abortion should be legal; support embryonic stem cell research. Support restrictions and regulation around the right to bear arms.
Personal Responsibility	Individuals should exercise personal responsibility and it is the governments role to hold them accountable even with severe penalties. Laws are enacted to reflect the best interest of the society as a whole.	The people should look to the government to provide a structure. Laws are enacted to protect every individual for an equal society sometimes at the expense of economic freedom if necessary.

I like this one, though, there are folks who fit both categories. For instance, I am opposed to abortion, but I am also opposed to the death penalty (one could say that I am pro-life, from womb to tomb). I also support the ownership of arms, but not weapons that fire at a high rate. These are some of my ideologies, and none belong to either party.

The political views of Americans and others can be seen as a continuum. I might fall somewhere closer to the middle of the continuum (where that is, I do not know), while others may fall closer to the right, center or left.

 

[rturner76]

Definitions are far too simplistic.

I guess you will have to take it up with Mirriam-Webster. I simply posted the definitions of the words. Anything else is a personal interpretation.

 

[rturner76]

"Conservative" is a subjective label. I call myself a "classical liberal".

I think there is a difference between the littoral meanings of the word and the political definition though they can be the same depending on one's politics.

I do believe that most self described conservatives, however, would define themselves as adhering to the idea that "before you tear a fence down, you probably should find out why it was put up in the first place."

I do think that conservatism does not have to mean they want zero change ever, just as little change as possible. I think a political Liberal would say about the fence "Why is that here? Do we still need it?"

they would argue that it is best that you are not so open minded that your brains fall out.

I can see that logic. I think a political Liberal would say "Don't be so closed minded that nothing new can get in."

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I do think that conservatism does not have to mean they want zero change ever, just as little change as possible. I think a political Liberal would say about the fence "Why is that here? Do we still need it?"

I believe they think they are asking that. But when they slide into socialism, LGBTQXYZ, same sex marriage, etc. They believe they don't still need the fence because they have convinced themselves that the reason it was put up is bogus. Except the wisdom of putting it up becomes apparent once it's torn down.

A fun thought exercise that I like to throw out at people: If you were about to be born and God told you that you had two choices. You could either be born black as a "benign" slaveowner's slave in the 1840's US to a slave mother and father, or you could be born a black "free" man in the 1970's in the South side of Chicago, with a crack addict mom and no dad? Which would you choose?

 

[BPPLEE]

I believe they think they are asking that. But when they slide into socialism, LGBTQXYZ, same sex marriage, etc. They believe they don't still need the fence because they have convinced themselves that the reason it was put up is bogus. Except the wisdom of putting it up becomes apparent once it's torn down.

A fun thought exercise that I like to throw out at people: If you were about to be born and God told you that you had two choices. You could either be born black as a "benign" slaveowner's slave in the 1840's US to a slave mother and father, or you could be born a black "free" man in the 1970's in the South side of Chicago, with a crack addict mom and no dad? Which would you choose?

I would ask for a third choice.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I guess you will have to take it up with Mirriam-Webster. I simply posted the definitions of the words. Anything else is a personal interpretation.

Not personal but each word has history and used in the context of today's political or religious scene there is a lot more that needs to be said. Post #29, for example.

 

[rturner76]

They believe they don't still need the fence because they have convinced themselves that the reason it was put up is bogus.

It could also open up new opportunities for community and friendship.

Except the wisdom of putting it up becomes apparent once it's torn down.

As times change, and new friendships are formed, perhaps the fence is no longer necessary.

Which would you choose?

I would choose to be any cliche but a slave. Although there are many obstacles when one is born poor, with a single mother, and with crack all around, the individual is still free. It's better to be born in impoverished circumstances than risk being bullwhipped or lynched for attempting to lear how to read. I would be anything but a slave.

 

[BPPLEE]

It could also open up new opportunities for community and friendship.

As times change, and new friendships are formed, perhaps the fence is no longer necessary.

I would choose to be any cliche but a slave. Although there are many obstacles when one is born poor, with a single mother, and with crack all around, the individual is still free. It's better to be born in impoverished circumstances than risk being bullwhipped or lynched for attempting to lear how to read. I would be anything but a slave.

I don’t see any point in pretending that anything was “good” about slavery.

 

[rturner76]

I don’t see any point in pretending that anything was “good” about slavery.

I used to watch a film called Hollywood Shuffle. It's about black stereotypes in Hollywood. It's from the mid 80's when that was much worse. Anyway on line goes "I don't know why we leaving massa house. He feed us on Saturday, Clothe us on Sunday, and beat us on Monday." Slavery is worse than wandering in the wilderness, especially American and colonist-style slavery. So brutal. Especially in the sugar plantations in the West Indies. They would work a slave literally until they dropped dead and buy a new on in the morning.

 

[BPPLEE]

I used to watch a film called Hollywood Shuffle. It's about black stereotypes in Hollywood. It's from the mid 80's when that was much worse. Anyway on line goes "I don't know why we leaving massa house. He feed us on Saturday, Clothe us on Sunday, and beat us on Monday." Slavery is worse than wandering in the wilderness, especially American and colonist-style slavery. So brutal. Especially in the sugar plantations in the West Indies. They would work a slave literally until they dropped dead and buy a new on in the morning.

You know more about it than I do but I don’t buy the “happy slave” stuff or that somehow they were better off than some people in modern times

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I would ask for a third choice.

That misses the point.