We talked about the two terms back in 2021 trying to figure out the connection , and looking at possible connections:
Tall73 said:
I have now watched all the videos as of last night and thought some more on it. Have you watched all the videos?
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Alright, first to summarize. He sees two distinct visions given to Daniel in chapter 8. One of them he notes is essentially the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9, though he takes a while to get around to say that.
He sees each spoken of by the two different terms for vision, mareh and Chazon.
He sees Chazon as being the whole thing, and mareh as being the first part, which of course, follows traditional Adventist understanding of the 2,300 days.
But the evidence for this is quite underwhelming. He indicates vs. 1-14 relates the chazon, then in verse 15 we see the introduction of the mareh.
Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the
mareh of a man.
Of course most just translate this as appearance, because this is how it is used in other contexts. But he asserts it is a vision. If it is a vision none of the details of that vision are given at all, nothing of what he sees, other than "of a man". This is to say the least a weak spot in this view, since he claims it contains a lot more than that. Nor is it called a second vision.
And then he says the interpretation of that 2nd vision, the mareh is verse 20-25. That makes little sense because verse 20-25 explain the basic players of the first vision, just as we see in Daniel 7, etc. And the explanation starts with the ram and the goat, etc. rather than "a man".
To get around the implications of a normal reading of verse 26
Dan 8:26 The
mareh of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the
chazon for it refers to many days from now.”
which would make the mareh refer to the evenings and mornings he says that we have to understand it as
Dan 8:26 The
mareh that is part of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the
chazon for it refers to many days from now.”
But his explanation of that is not convincing.
Also, he uses a translation that renders "seal up" as "keep secret", but, the vision was not of course kept secret.
Then when we get to chapter 9 it says:
Dan 9:20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the LORD my God for the holy hill of my God,
Dan 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in
the chazon
Except, he defined the Chazon as vs. 1-14, and Gabriel is not seen there. Daniel had not seen Gabriel in the Chazon, but Gabriel is introduced in vs. 16, which would be after he sees the "mareh" of a man starting.
Dan 8:15 When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it. And behold, there stood before me one having the
mareh of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the mareh.”
So this would not make sense of the use in chapter 9.
And then in chapter 9:24 he again takes chazon to be not just visions generically, as Adventists often do regarding the coming of Christ, summing up the prophets, but as the chazon of chapter 8 again. And he says that by the end of the mareh it "seals up" the chazon....but Daniel was told to seal it up when it was given, so that doesn't make sense either.
Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both
chazon and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
So to sum it up, the whole thing is an attempt to say that the vision of chapter 9 was already related in chapter 8 to dodge the problem of linking the two chapters in the 2,300 days. But I don't see how it makes sense of the uses of the words. And to even attempt to you have to take "the mareh of a man" to be a whole vision that is not related or mentioned as a vision, instead of seeing someone with the appearance of a man. And you have to take "the mareh of the evenings and mornings" as "the mareh which is part of the evenings and mornings" without warrant.
I have looked at it from a variety of angles.
I think one of the sticking points on the view is essentially acknowledged by them.
Dan 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”
The mareh cannot be both the 70 weeks AND the 2,300 days per their view. This is why they have to supply, "which is part of the 2,300 days".
