Cops Stage Surprise 'Mock Shooting' on High Schoolers' Tour

Nithavela · Jun 8, 2024

Cops Stage Surprise 'Mock Shooting' on High Schoolers' Tour

Parents 'baffled' by firing of blanks during tour of Vermont's Burlington Police Department

www.newser.com

Emails show police told school staff there would be "a mock shooting" involving "fake firearms." "Do you think that sort of incident would be ok for your group of students? It is about as real life as you can get," the department asked May 23, per Seven Days. "I think these students will be fine with this simulation," school staff reportedly responded, adding, "We will give a heads up to parents and students." Students and parents said they were not informed in advance.

Pommer · Jun 8, 2024

Nithavela said:
Cops Stage Surprise 'Mock Shooting' on High Schoolers' Tour

Parents 'baffled' by firing of blanks during tour of Vermont's Burlington Police Department

www.newser.com

“Hey, captain, I got a great idea! Let’s traumatize children just to let them know that we’re ‘on-the-job’! It’ll be swell!”

Here’s a link to the story without some many ads

AlexB23 · Jun 8, 2024

Nithavela said:
Cops Stage Surprise 'Mock Shooting' on High Schoolers' Tour

Parents 'baffled' by firing of blanks during tour of Vermont's Burlington Police Department

www.newser.com

Man, what has the world come to. The officers could have used colorful Nerf blasters instead. This mock stuff could traumatize kids and parents.

iluvatar5150 · Jun 8, 2024

In Burlington? Really?

Brihaha · Jun 8, 2024

Maybe one day they could have had a community brainstorming session to find ways to control the overwhelming gun violence problem. Like common sense regulations to minimize the sheer number of guns available for people to commit mass shootings in the heat of passion. It seems being proactive might be more effective than being perpetually reactive, especially if they have to traumatize kids in their research.

Tropical Wilds · Jun 8, 2024

Being semi-close to this, it’s wild to see how other regions and news sources are reporting on the circumstances very, very differently.

iluvatar5150 · Jun 8, 2024

Tropical Wilds said:
Being semi-close to this, it’s wild to see how other regions and news sources are reporting on the circumstances very, very differently.

Oh? What are the differences?

keith99 · Jun 8, 2024

The entire character of this changes on one small but important point. Informed consent.

It seems that the police asked the school administrators about this in advance and asked if it was OK for these students. That much seems to be supported by emails, it is documented. It also seems the administrators told the police they had informed parents and students. This seems to not be the case.

That changes it from something a bit scary, where the kids would be expected to walk away thinking they don't want to experience it for real. It could also be a good lead in to a discussion about what to do it if they are caught in something similar for real.

BUT without that warning it is a traumatizing disaster.

Tropical Wilds · Jun 8, 2024

iluvatar5150 said:
Oh? What are the differences?

A forensics group via the school had a visit and tour. The idea was at the conclusion, they were going to recreate an incident/crime scene and the students were going to investigate it a la “Murderville” on Netflix. The police talked to the school (undisputed fact), got it approved (undisputed fact), and the school was going to notify parents (undisputed fact) and get permission (disputed fact; police told them to do so, school said they did not ask them to do so).

So, they arrived, were doing the tour, then in the middle of said tour, they launched into said crime reenactment, a robbery with guns and such, to an audience of students who had no idea it was fake. They thought they were in the midst of a real, live crisis. And since a kid was just shot and killed in a hate crime, there was a sense of fresh realism and urgency.

Police maintain that they got permission to do said drill to a group of students going into that field of work and they’ve done something similar in years past, maybe not as realistic, and the school dropped the ball by not notifying parents. School maintains that while they were notified and agreed, they didn’t realize how realistic it would be and it would occur without warning during the tour, and that given the shooting that just happened, it was in poor form.

The reality is, as Reddit says, ESH. The students involved are an even split of “this was tasteless because I thought it was real” and “this was awesome and apparent pretty quickly that it was a skit because they always do something like this.” Parents, especially those not involved, are fairly universally upset, but it’s about 50/50 outrage to the school or the police.

The news reports vacillate wildly between “insane police traumatize kids as the unchecked aggression of law enforcement manifests itself during a children’s tour” to “snowflake liberal engage forensics students melt down when forced to confront the realities of their profession.” Occasionally a “of course anti-gun liberals and their kids are upset by guns” kicker is included in the latter.

Again, knowing people who were involved (I have a child as a student from one of the sending schools and am close with parents of kids in the class), this is a case of everybody dropping the ball. Yes, the police doing a Murderville scenario is a known known, but they should have figured it would cause problems surprising them with a gun-centered event given the recent hate crime and tensions are high. But yes, the school was notified and should have notified parents, but clearly they didn’t, and that’s an issue. The school should have said it was coming and got permission, the police should have clearly announced it was a reenactment before proceeding, and it would have been fine.

Nithavela · Jun 8, 2024

Tropical Wilds said:
A forensics group via the school had a visit and tour. The idea was at the conclusion, they were going to recreate an incident/crime scene and the students were going to investigate it a la “Murderville” on Netflix. The police talked to the school (undisputed fact), got it approved (undisputed fact), and the school was going to notify parents (undisputed fact) and get permission (disputed fact; police told them to do so, school said they did not ask them to do so).

So, they arrived, were doing the tour, then in the middle of said tour, they launched into said crime reenactment, a robbery with guns and such, to an audience of students who had no idea it was fake. They thought they were in the midst of a real, live crisis. And since a kid was just shot and killed in a hate crime, there was a sense of fresh realism and urgency.

Police maintain that they got permission to do said drill to a group of students going into that field of work and they’ve done something similar in years past, maybe not as realistic, and the school dropped the ball by not notifying parents. School maintains that while they were notified and agreed, they didn’t realize how realistic it would be and it would occur without warning during the tour, and that given the shooting that just happened, it was in poor form.

The reality is, as Reddit says, ESH. The students involved are an even split of “this was tasteless because I thought it was real” and “this was awesome and apparent pretty quickly that it was a skit because they always do something like this.” Parents, especially those not involved, are fairly universally upset, but it’s about 50/50 outrage to the school or the police.

The news reports vacillate wildly between “insane police traumatize kids as the unchecked aggression of law enforcement manifests itself during a children’s tour” to “snowflake liberal engage forensics students melt down when forced to confront the realities of their profession.” Occasionally a “of course anti-gun liberals and their kids are upset by guns” kicker is included in the latter.

Again, knowing people who were involved (I have a child as a student from one of the sending schools and am close with parents of kids in the class), this is a case of everybody dropping the ball. Yes, the police doing a Murderville scenario is a known known, but they should have figured it would cause problems surprising them with a gun-centered event given the recent hate crime and tensions are high. But yes, the school was notified and should have notified parents, but clearly they didn’t, and that’s an issue. The school should have said it was coming and got permission, the police should have clearly announced it was a reenactment before proceeding, and it would have been fine.

I think my quote in the OP outlines this pretty well. The source in the OP doesn't put any of that spin into the story.

There are ads though, I guess..

AlexB23 · Jun 8, 2024

Nithavela said:
I think my quote in the OP outlines this pretty well. The source in the OP doesn't put any of that spin into the story.

There are ads though, I guess..

Agreed, 100%. Also, ad blocker my friends.

Blocks all the ads on most, if not all websites.

Tropical Wilds · Jun 8, 2024

Nithavela said:
I think my quote in the OP outlines this pretty well. The source in the OP doesn't put any of that spin into the story.

There are ads though, I guess..

The initial comment wasn't intended as a statement that meant you or the news source is biased, only that I know what happened pretty directly and knowing that, seeing how it's spun based off who is reporting it is wild. Like I said, I read a couple articles that were like "won't somebody think of the children?!" and just as many that were like "liberal snowflakes are such babies." It is a general observation related to the conversation and the articles surrounding it.

Like I said, I get why kids who were thinking they were on a tour only to have it suddenly derailed by a gun-incident they didn't know was coming would be upset, especially after a major shooting just happened involving somebody in the age group. I get why the police should have known springing it on them and using guns, even fake ones, was a bad choice. And, to me, the shared emails seem to make pretty plain that the police asked for parents to be notified, the school acknowledged and agreed they would, and then didn't follow through. The school also pretty plainly signed off on a staged incident happening and there is precedent for the police doing an incident of some sort as the final project for the outgoing seniors. I just think ESH, except the kids. Lots of balls were dropped.

Zaha Torte · Jun 8, 2024

Pommer said:
“Hey, captain, I got a great idea! Let’s traumatize children just to let them know that we’re ‘on-the-job’! It’ll be swell!”

Here’s a link to the story without some many ads

I thought the school claimed that they were going to inform the students and parents - but failed to do so - why blame the police officers?

Pommer · Jun 8, 2024

Zaha Torte said:
I thought the school claimed that they were going to inform the students and parents - but failed to do so - why blame the police officers?

Why defend them?

Zaha Torte · Jun 8, 2024

Pommer said:
Why defend them?

I tend to do that with anyone who is not at fault.

Why do you insist on blaming them when they are not at fault?

Pommer · Jun 8, 2024

Zaha Torte said:
I tend to do that with anyone who is not at fault.

Why do you insist on blaming them when they are not at fault?

Who fired blanks in an attempt to give the kids a “good show”?

iluvatar5150 · Jun 8, 2024

Zaha Torte said:
I thought the school claimed that they were going to inform the students and parents - but failed to do so - why blame the police officers?

Zaha Torte said:
I tend to do that with anyone who is not at fault.

Why do you insist on blaming them when they are not at fault?

Something like this should've required signed consent forms from the parents in the hands of the police and checked before proceeding. A head nod and a "we good?" is absurdly insufficient. Heck, even as an adult, I can't go on group outings (e.g. with work) without signing a waiver at the venue.

Maybe when you're used to operating with impunity, you don't think about things like liability.

Zaha Torte · Jun 8, 2024

Pommer said:
Who fired blanks in an attempt to give the kids a “good show”?

Police officers that thought everyone involved knew what was to happen in order to teach students about the unreliability of witness statements.

Pommer · Jun 9, 2024

Zaha Torte said:
Police officers that thought everyone involved knew what was to happen in order to teach students about the unreliability of witness statements.

From my link:
In an email to parents on Wednesday afternoon obtained by Seven Days, teachers said officers told them that they'd previously used the lesson with college students and adults, and that they wanted the event to be “as realistic as possible.”

“The detectives did apologize after they realized that the reenactment did not translate well to high school students,” the teachers wrote.

The police apologized for this incident, taking on the “blame”…I’m agreeing with them.

(The real reason I dislike news-aggregation sites (apart from the ads) is that they tend to edit their stories so that details go missing, though the OP link also says the detective apologized)

Zaha Torte · Jun 9, 2024

Pommer said:
From my link:
In an email to parents on Wednesday afternoon obtained by Seven Days, teachers said officers told them that they'd previously used the lesson with college students and adults, and that they wanted the event to be “as realistic as possible.”

“The detectives did apologize after they realized that the reenactment did not translate well to high school students,” the teachers wrote.

The police apologized for this incident, taking on the “blame”…I’m agreeing with them.

(The real reason I dislike news-aggregation sites (apart from the ads) is that they tend to edit their stories so that details go missing, though the OP link also says the detective apologized)

Just because someone apologized does not mean that they were at fault.

Prior to this event - did the school agree to this demonstration? Did the school tell the police department that the students and parents would be notified?

Cops Stage Surprise 'Mock Shooting' on High Schoolers' Tour

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