Bible proof that the Thief on the cross never got water baptized.

LoveofTruth · Jan 2, 2024

biblelesson said:
So the scripture I listed in my post proving the baptism Jesus spoke to his disciples about was “water baptism,” and confirmed by Peter, Acts 10:47 KJV, you say Peter was confused. So now instead of acknowledging your error, you make untrue statements about Peter.

No, you are confused - and wrong!

Jesus told Peter and the other disciples to tarry for the Holy Spirit, and who had received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Who taught them all truth, where the disciples were to be Jesus witnesses, Acts 1:8 KJV. If the Holy Ghost endowed Peter with power from on high, Luke 24:49 KJV, knowledge, discernment, and truth in Christ Jesus, John 16:13 KJV, how could Peter have been confused?

I am not confused. Scripture proves whatI'm saying and I don't say things the way you do. Peter walked in the understanding and light he had. God was revealing more to him as he walked in the way.

Peter was not understanding a few things as we see in scripture and to be blamed at times (Galatians 2).

We see this here,

First Jesus had already told Peter with the other apostles to

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, ...:"(Matthew 28:19)

But when God called peter to go to Cornelius a Gentile Peter was hesitant. God showed Peter a sign about eating unclean foods and Peter argued with God. It seems that Peter did not follow Matthew 28 as God commanded, but needed a vision and a sign to do so. If peter was not clear about that fist part then the baptizing part could also have been in need of more understanding.

"And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common....Now while Peter doubted in himself..."(Acts 10:11-14, 17)

Notice that Peter said, "Not so, Lord" and he was corrected. It seems that Peter was still under the law not eating unclean animals and following the Halakah Law of the Jews or the traditions of the elders, not the Mosaic law.when he said earlier about eating with Gentiles.

It seems that Peter also needed to understand that there is no more distinction in the New Covenant between clean and unclean foods. He was still following the law of such things and needed understanding.

So it would make sense that since Peter and many other Jewish BELIEVERS, were still struggling with the law (Acts 21) that the gentiles who were coming to the faith in Jesus did not have to go under the law and then come out of it as all were to do. So when Peter following his understanding water baptized Cornelius and others it would appear that he was still following Johns WATER baptism and perhaps connected to the Halakah Law of the Jews, their traditions that would water baptize new converts among the gentiles, as History shows us they did. But in Chapter 11 we read peter recalling the story and he remember at that time ( perhaps as he was questioning the gentiles and if they should be water baptized, when jesus said to them in Acts 1 that John indeed baptized with water, but they should be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Why did Peter have this come to His mind when he was among the gentiles? It seems that Jesus was telling him that the gentiles do not need to be water baptized and come under the law.

Remember Acts 15 hadn't happened yet and in Acts 15 we see the church coming together to discuss if the Gentile should keep the law of Moses and be circumcised to be saved. If the whole church had not understood this many years after Christ death, then Peter before that must have also not had full understanding of this in Acts 10.

we also see peter was to be blamed again in the confusion about the Gentiles and the Jewish issues and Paul said,

"11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
"(Galatians 2:11-16).

It seems that Paul was not just speaking about eating habits here, but the very truth of the gospel was in danger and barnabas was carried away by their dissimulation (deceit, condemnation, hypocrisy etc). Paul said why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do. Here we see a bit more of what was going on, and that the Jews were still in a time of reformation and transition to some degree and the Gentiles were not to be brought under that.

Also Paul said the most serious thing that Peter was blamed for, and that was that the truth of the gospel was not being walked in rightly. We are to live by grace through faith not of works to justify ourself. The gospel is Christ work for us on the cross by Hs death for sin and burial and resurrection. But to add any works or act as if the Jews had a different way to be saved than the gentiles o to trust in the law and circumcision ( which Paul touches on later in this book) is to be blamed and fight against the gospel truth. Paul had to say this to them all, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." This was serious.

So you were not correct to say I made untrue statements about Peter. I speak according to scripture. And I see Peter as a wonderful saint in the Lord, mighty. He did tell eventually of the saving baptism 1 Peter 3:21, which is not a putting away of the filth of the flesh ) or a washing with water) but it was an inward work and the answer of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. We also are risen with Christ and this is an inward witness.

We see the word "conscience, being an important word . Meaning with knowledge. The conscience cannot be clean or good by animal sacrifices.

"9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."(Hebrews 9:8,10)

They did not have the full knowledge of Christ work accomplished as we do, we now have a full assurance of hope and our conscience is clean and perfect by the the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit purged our conscience of dead works (Hebrews 9)

"14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"(Hebrews 9:14)

LoveofTruth · Jan 2, 2024

biblelesson said:
Yes, the Jewish believers may have gone to the temple, sacrificed animals, and still kept the customs, but that was because they were unwilling to accept that the laws had ended at Jesus’s death.

No, you are wrong and missed what I shared. I said the thousands of Jewish believers in Jesus still were zealous of the law and sacrificed animals and kept the law and customs, and we even see Paul condescending to this at a time as scripture proves here,

"18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:..26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. ( Acst 21:18-20, 26).

The purifying himself is apparently connected to animal sacrifices. as we read "until an offering should be offered for every one of them" This is the Nazarite vow I believe.

I am referring to believing Jews who believed in Jesus.

biblelesson said:
It was the Jews who opposed the gospel taught by Paul, Peter and the other apostles.

No, I am referring to the believing Jews

biblelesson said:
Under the original laws given to the Jews, which pertains to the laws God gave to Israel, there was no water baptism as part of those laws.

there were many washings (baptismos) When John the baptist water baptized, the Jews did not have trouble with that, for they had been water baptising the Gentile converts and had many washings for a long time before that. It was even argued before John how the Gentiles should be baptized, what manner to do it.

But here is a interesting scripture to consider,

"9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."( Hebrews 9:9,10).

The word washings here is "baptismos" in Greek. The same word used in Hebrews 6:2 of "the doctrine of baptisms".

biblelesson said:
The Halakah law you mention is something that’s man made (made up by certain Jewish sects), and has nothing to do with God’s Old Testament laws under the old covenant given to Moses.

Yes, I know it was the traditions of men, and many Jews were following them and Jesus often withstood such traditions. But one of the traditions they had was when a Gentile convert came to Judaism, they fully submerged them in water and circumcised them, and some history speaks of them offering two turtle doves.

biblelesson said:
John’s baptism had nothing to do with man made ordinances,

I never said it did. Johns water baptism was still under the old covenant which many Jewish believers including Peter and other still followed for a time. Peter was going to the Temple in Acts 2 and in Acts 21 many many years after Christ death the Jewish believers ( thousands of them) were still going to the temple and zealous of the law. The temple had priest and sacrifices etc. It seems many, many, many, christians don't see these things in the scriptures, even when they are shown. Read Acts 15 and 21 closely.

biblelesson said:
and if the Halakah sect joined that practice in their laws, they were practicing sacrilege, and in willful violation of God’s commands in the Bible.

as many Jews did and Jesus corrected them often. He warned of men making the word of God of no effect by their traditions. The traditions and customs of the Jews were many. Some not as bad as others. But God seems to be allowing the Jews a time of reformation or transition to come out of the old covenant. In Hebrews we read that the old covenant was fading away ready to vanish. But at the time Hebrews was written it had not faded away yet or vanished. This was a big issue in the scripture letters.

We even see that when Paul met with Peter and others it was decided

,"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;" ( Galatians 2:7)

I think many christians have not consider this verse. We know that there is only one saving gospel. yet we read of the gospel of the uncircumcision and the gospel of the circumcision. It was ministered to both the Jews and Gentiles. It seems that the Jews who were coming out of the old Covenant and allowed for a time to walk in certain things were different than the Gentiles who did not need to walk in the law . But this is a bigger conversation for here.

biblelesson said:
Jesus had to be glorified first before those baptized could receive the Holy Spirit. That’s why John the Baptist could only preach repentance and water baptism, while after Jesus death, Peter and the other disciples and apostles could preach repentance, water baptism, and the receipt of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

we don't read of the apostles being water baptized again in a new way in Acts.

Also, we read at the beginning of Acts a teaching by Jesus and Peters remembered this after he water baptized the Gentiles .

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." ( John 1:5)

and

"16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?" ( Acts 11:16,17).

It seems clear that Peter was still following Johns water baptism. The Jewish believers were still connected to the temple and the law and Johns water baptism was very close to them. So we can see how this would be still followed if they also followed the law and animal sacrifices etc.

biblelesson said:
It was not the Jews who were in a time of reformation and transition. Most of the Jews was opposed to the gospel, and it never took affect with them, Romans 9:6-8 KJV, meaning most never converted because they refused Jesus, Abraham’s seed, called in Isaac.

The time of reformation changed all things that God had required. The time of reformation refers to the diverse washings and carnal ordinances that were imposed upon them. If any came to know this and understand it that was Gods intention. Paul often spoke of believers not being under the law any more.

biblelesson said:
I don’t know where you get it took time for the Jews to bear the gospel as if God gave them time, because that was not the case.

I didn't say it took time to bear the gospel. The things that were falling off of them or fading away were of the old covenant and the law etc and it took took time to bear it. As we see in Acts and Paul's writings and other places.

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:13)

biblelesson said:
When Jesus said he had many things to say but they could not bare it, He was not saying he would give them time. What Jesus was actually saying was that those things they could not bare, that after He leave them, He would send them the Holy Spirit who would lead them into all truth, John 16:12-14 KJV. That’s why the were told to terry until they receive power from in high as promised, Acts 1:8 KJV, Luke 24:49 KJV. The power received, which is the Holy Spirit, was/is the One Who taught the disciples those thing Jesus said they could not bare. It had nothing to do with giving the Jews time to accept the truth of the gospel.

they were not able to bear it at the time Jesus was speaking and as we see in Acts they needed to grow in Christ and the knowledge and as the Holy Ghost revealed things to them. We see the great dispute in Acts 15 that eventually the Holy Ghost gave them more understanding.

I believe that some of the things they could not bare at that time Jesus spoke were things like, the temple was no more going to be needed, or the law followed and customs as they had been doing. The sacrifices priesthood etc was all to change and fade away. Imagine having grown your whole life in these things and to hear they are all going to change and not to understand how or why fully.

Peter and others could only walk in the light they had and they could not go against their conscience. The conscience meaning with knowledge, they did not have knowledge of certain things yet and a person cannot go ahead unless they have a good conscience. They had a clean conscience and purified by the blood of Christ through the Spirit. But we read of some not doing certain things for conscience etc. So Peter could only speak what he had been given.

LoveofTruth · Jan 2, 2024

biblelesson said:
So the scripture I listed in my post proving the baptism Jesus spoke to his disciples about was “water baptism,”

show me the word "water in Matthew 28 or mark 16. we must not add to scripture.

LoveofTruth · Jan 2, 2024

biblelesson said:
Yes, for the New Testament saints, water baptism is required to take part in his death, and resurrection, whereby we are joined by His Spirit, thus taking part of the body of Christ.

So are you saying that water baptism is for salvation? And that water baptism is part of the saving gospel? if so that is not accurate according to scripture.

Find water baptism in this section 1 Cor 15:1-5, and Paul said in 1 Cor 1 that Christ sent him, not to baptize but to preach the gospel. Showing that water baptism is not part of the gospel.

LoveofTruth · Jan 2, 2024

biblelesson said:
Yes, we are no longer under the laws of the Old Testament, and circumcising and animal sacrifices are no more.

Yet, many thousands of Jewish believers in Jesus still struggled with the law and sacrifices etc (Acts 15,21) for a long time after Christ death. The book of Acts shows the transition and the struggle.

Danthemailman · Jan 3, 2024

So, according to certain folks, the thief on the cross may have been converted, was water baptized, yet the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? - (highly unlikely) In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests' scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit?

I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith from a baptized believer. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

biblelesson · Jan 3, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
So forgive me for saying so but you’re just making assumptions as to why these people did or didn’t receive the Holy Spirit at a specific time and that assumption is not supported by the text. I’m not saying your assumptions are not plausible I’m simply saying that they cannot be considered doctrinal because they’re not explicitly stated which leaves them in a category of possibility not actual undeniable fact.

As our life as Christians are patterned after Jesus, and Jesus gave the command on baptism to his disciples, here is another example of water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit during baptism.

Jesus Himself:

Matthew 3:16-17 KJV
16 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”
17 “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

We receive the same Spirit of God that’s in Jesus through our [water] baptism the same way the Spirit lighted on Jesus.

Ephesians 4:4-5
4 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;”
5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism,”

Romans 6:4 KJV
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

John 3:5 KJV
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 KJV
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Jesus received the Spirit from the Father, we receive the Spirit from Christ:

John 16:7 KJV
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

We receive the Spirit through our baptism into death being buried with Christ, thus joining with Christ’s baptism, Romans 6:4 KJV,

BNR32FAN · Jan 3, 2024

biblelesson said:
The verses dealing with the Samaritan, Simon and the Ethiopia, an eunuch does explain why they received the Holy Spirit. These people were baptized after Philip preached the kingdom of God and Jesus to them, but he did not lay hands on the people to receive the Holy Spirit. That is why when the apostles heard about it, they sent Peter and John so that those baptized under Philip’s preaching could receive the Holy Spirit. The scripture tells you the Spirit had not fell on them yet, Acts 8:16 KJV.

So if you will notice what the scripture is saying, prayer had to be offered for the Samaritans that they might receive the Holy Spirit, Acts 8:15 KJV, and it was not until hands were laid on them that they received the Holy Spirit, Acts 8:17 KJV. The scripture clearly says that “when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given…,” Acts 8:18 KJV.

That only tells us what took place it doesn’t tell us that hands must be laid on a person every time otherwise they won’t receive the Holy Spirit. Read Acts 19

”It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.“
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that Paul asked them men “did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” He didn’t ask them if they received the Holy Spirit when they were baptized or had hands laid on them. Some people receive the Holy Spirit when they hear the gospel and believe, some when they are baptized, and some not until hands are laid on them, that’s what the scriptures actually tell us.

”In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,“
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No mention of baptism or laying of hands here.

Nobody laid hands on the apostles when they received the Spirit instead Jesus breathed on them and they still didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until over 40 days later. In Acts 2 Peter didn’t say anything about laying hands on anyone to receive the Holy Spirit. Jesus said The Father will grant the Holy Spirit to those who ask for it, He didn’t mention anything about laying of hands.

”“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11‬:‭9‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The laying of hands was only ever used in certain cases where people who believed and we baptized still hadn’t received the Holy Spirit. It was not mandatory for everyone to receive the Holy Spirit.

LoveofTruth · Jan 4, 2024

biblelesson said:
As our life as Christians are patterned after Jesus,

But remember that Jesus was made under the law only he could fulfill all righteousness and the laws . He also would have done all things like circumcision and other law requirements .

biblelesson said:
and Jesus gave the command on baptism to his disciples,

Show me this command and I look for the word “water”. There are about 6 or 7 baptisms if you don’t include all the washings (baptismos) of the Old Testament.

biblelesson said:
here is another example of water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit during baptism.

Jesus Himself:

Matthew 3:16-17 KJV
16 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”
17 “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was Johns water baptism to manifest Jesus to all it is typified in the river crossing of Joshua and the people when going across the Jordan on dry land.

Johns water baptism was still part of the. old covenant. Types and shadows. Ephesians 4:4-5

biblelesson said:
4 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;”
5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism,”

This “one baptism” must be the saving baptism spoken of in 1 Peter 3:21 and Mark 16:16, and these are not water baptisms for salvation. The saving baptism is as many as have been baptized into Christ have put in Christ (it doesn’t say baptized into water or put on water) . This one baptism that all must have is ,

1 Corinthians 12: 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”(1 Cor. 12:13)

Noticed the words”are we all baptized”

This is spiritual life by the grace of God.

biblelesson said:
Romans 6:4 KJV
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

No water mebtioned here. This is an inward wirk and where we are circumcised in our hearts and where Christ dwells in our heart by faith.

biblelesson said:
John 3:5 KJV
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

This is not referring to water baptism .

It is clear because in vs 3 Jesus said “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God”. Then Nicodemus asked how can this be can a man go into his mothers womb and be born again,

John 3: 4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”
So Nicodemus mentioned being born of the flesh in the womb the natural birth. He may have thought because he was a child of Abraham and a Jew that he was saved.

But now Jesus changes his statement from John 3 and adds a new part “born of water and the spirit.”

Jesus was answering the question about entering into a mothers womb and showing that two births are needful .

John 3: 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

“born of water” is referring to the water breaking when the child is coming into the world and being born, born of the spirit is different .Jesus is talking about two kinds of birth. The one natural of the flesh born of water where the water breaks and the other born spiritual by the word of God . We see the two births mentioned in the very next verse

John 3: 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

is obvious here that Jesus was referring to Nicodemus mentioning birth from the mothers womb and born of water is the one birth and the spiritual birth the next.

Then Jesus talks about the spiritual one in the next verse being like the wind. You cannot see it like the wind. But if water baptism was mentioned here and the person dunking underwater was seen and witnessed then this verse would not make sense. If you cannot see it then he is not referring to the visual water baptism.

It’s interesting that Jesus goes back to his original statement in vs 3?and simply says you must be born again. He didn’t add the water comment .

John 3: 7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

biblelesson said:
Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Yes this is connected to our spiritual birth where Christ dwells in our heart by faith.

We receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith and when we believe, it is not works that cause that or are part of that.

Galatians 3: 2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

LoveofTruth · Jan 4, 2024

Lost4words said:
Still...faith leads to good works.

Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.

Then we are immersed (baptized) into Christ at this time. This is the grace of God that bringeth salvation. Then Gid works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work. These works are not ordinances or works of the flesh but the fruit of the Spirit is manifest in these.

Hebrews 13: 20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Notice it is Gid working in us making us perfect unto every good work. Our perfection is also connected to God working in the church ((Ephesians 4:11-16). And by scripture which is given by the spirit through believers (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).

We could say as the body without the human spirit is dead so the faith in a believer is dead without God in him and working in him .

Light of the East · Mar 26, 2024

Cockcrow said:
don't tell the works trusters, baptismal regeneration crowd that. it seems a common teaching that one must do a water baptism to be saved. Billions believe it (Roman Catholicism + orthodox) it is wicked. salvation is by grace through faith in Lord Jesus Christ alone

Your problem is that your belief was not taught until the creation of the Anabaptist faith in the 16th century. If you read the works of the first Christian pastors, they to a man taught that water baptism regenerates the soul. Now where would they have learned this except from the Apostles who were taught by Christ?

Cyril of Jerusalem

“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom. . . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

Hermas

“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Just as circumcision made the one circumcised a member of the congregation of God in the Old Covenant, so also does baptism make one a member of the congregation of God in the New Covenant. In other words, baptism has replaced circumcision as the act of "cutting covenant" with God.

LoveofTruth · Mar 27, 2024

Light of the East said:
Your problem is that your belief was not taught until the creation of the Anabaptist faith in the 16th century.

The understanding of baptism into Christ as differing from Johns water baptism was taught in scripture from Paul.

And Paul did not teach that water baptism regenerates the soul. Far from it. Paul taught the saving gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and no water baptism is mebtioned there. Paul said we are saved by grace through faith not of works. Paul even said Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (2 Cor. 1) . Paul showed the Corinthians what the one baptism is that all have.

1 Corinthians 12: 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

And Paul said as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Not baptized into water and out on water.

Light of the East said:
Cyril of Jerusalem
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

This is not the truth according to scripture. Paul said that men are saved by the hearing of faith when they heard the gospel and believed. Jesys said whoever believes has eternal life. And Christ dwells in our heart by faith.

1 Corinthians 15: 1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Galatians 3: 2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

It doesn’t matter what men say way after Christ death around 386 AD, the errors entered into the church way before that and it is safer to not go beyond what is written in scripture and I follow Christ as Paul followed him and the scriptures Paul and others wrote.

Light of the East said:
Just as circumcision made the one circumcised a member of the congregation of God in the Old Covenant, so also does baptism make one a member of the congregation of God in the New Covenant. In other words, baptism has replaced circumcision as the act of "cutting covenant" with God.

No, even circumcision was a figure outwardly of the inward circumcision of the heart.

But water baptism is not like circumcision. The immersion (baptism) into Christ is made without hands . Believers are circumcised in the heart today abs baptized into Christ each reflecting a different aspect.

Colossians 2: 11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Notice “made without hands” it is a spiritual reality not a physical one in the flesh.

And if you take the word circumcision in the writings of Paul and put the word water baptism in place you will see an interesting study. For example ,

Galatians 5: 2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Galatians 5: 2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be [water baptized for salvation], Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Or

Galatians 6: 12. As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; [water baptized] only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13. For neither they themselves who are circumcised [water baptized]keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.”

Notice in this Galatians verse the one reason they were constraining them to be circumcised, was so they would not suffer persecution for the cross of Christianity. The cross of Christ puts to death all works of the flesh so to do a work in the flesh would be accepted by the Judaisers, but to deny any work in the flesh for salvation brings persecution.

Paul used similar words about this in 1 Corinthians about not baptizing or using words etc,

Consider carefully. Don’t follow men way after Paul wrote scripture. Listen to what Paul wrote over men way after who speak differently ,

1 Corinthians 1: 17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

Johns water baotism was part of the figure and diverse washings of the Old Covenant.

Acts 1: 5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Notice the past tense about Johns water baptism.

And

Hebrews 9: 10. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”

The word “washings” there is baptismos in Greek.

Light of the East · Mar 27, 2024

LoveofTruth said:
The understanding of baptism into Christmas as differing from Johns water baptism was taught in scripture from Paul.

This is why we need the Church. What you are doing here is what all Protestants do - personal interpretation of the Scriptures. This is why you have thousands of different assemblies with hundreds of different dogmas, each one claiming they alone have the "true understanding" of the Bible and yet not agreeing with one another. I've watched two Baptists condemn each other to hell over a minor difference in the understanding of baptism. If it wasn't so sad, it would be humorous.

The Church is where the truth is found, not in our personal understanding of the Scriptures, experiences, or anything else.

LoveofTruth said:
And Paul did not teach that water baptism regenerates the soul. Far from it. Paul taught the saving gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and no water baptism is mebtioned there. Paul said we are saved by grace through faith not of works. Paul even said Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (2 Cor. 1) . Paul showed the Corinthians what the one baptism is that all have.

1 Corinthians 12: 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Again, you interpret this in a different manner than the Church. You see this as a spiritual baptism whereas I see this as the Church sees this: that when you are baptized, the Spirit of God comes upon the water, blesses it, and makes it effacacious to the remission of sins and entering into Christ.

LoveofTruth said:
And Paul said as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Not baptized into water and out on water.

This is not the truth according to scripture. Paul said that men are saved by the hearing of faith when they heard the gospel and believed. Jesus said whoever believes has eternal life. And Christ dwells in our heart by faith.

You do not separate hearing from action. Our priest spoke about this in a homily a couple of weeks ago. He mentioned how Protestantism thinks that "repentance" means to feel sorry about something. Repentance is more than an intellectual assent that I have done bad. It is the action of stopping that which I have done and striving to never do it again. It is an action. Likewise, faith is also an action. You think it is just thinking right thoughts about Jesus Christ.

LoveofTruth said:
It doesn’t matter what men say way after Christ death around 386 AD, the errors entered into the church way before that and it is safer to not go beyond what is written in scripture and I follow Christ as Paul followed him and the scriptures Paul and others wrote.

I repeat, you are following not Scripture, but what you THINK that Scripture says. If what you say was to be true, your "faith alone" we would see it being practiced and taught in the very first centuries of the Church. It is not. It is an invention of the Protestant Reformation. Of course, maybe you are one of those who believe that the "true faith" existed up until Constantine made Christianity legal and then it disappeared in a tidal wave of heresy and apostasy until the Reformers recovered it, washed the mud of error off it, and presented it to the world. Is that it?

LoveofTruth said:
No, even circumcision was a figure outwardly of the inward circumcision of the heart.

Again, that is neither true nor possible. How did male babies circumcise their hearts (faith alone belief)?

LoveofTruth said:
But water baptism is not like circumcision. The immersion (baptism) into Christ is made without hands . Believers are circumcised in the heart today abs baptized into Christ each reflecting a different aspect.

Colossians 2: 11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Notice “made without hands” it is a spiritual reality not a physical one in the flesh.

And if you take the word circumcision in the writings of Paul and put the word water baptism in place you will see an interesting study. For example ,

Galatians 5: 2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Paul wrote Galatians to correct the errors of the Judaizers who were infesting the Church and causing problems in Galatia. They were teaching that the Gentiles had to be circumcised first before becoming Christians. They were putting people back under the law, which does not profit.

Both circumcision and baptism do the same thing: they make one a member of the Church. (Congregation of God). They are both covenant cutting rituals which enter the one being baptized into the Covenant of God and make that person a member of the congregation.

LoveofTruth said:
Paul used similar words about this in 1 Corinthians about not baptizing or using words etc,

Consider carefully. Don’t follow men way after Paul wrote scripture. Listen to what Paul wrote over men way after who speak differently,

So what you are saying is that the men who were willing to die for the truth of the Gospel were not honest and didn't carefully pass down the faith from generation to generation. I find that insulting to the memory of such men who gave us the Christian faith. If you are a Trinitarian in belief, these men whom you are insulting are the very ones who defended Christ's deity at Nicaea. They opposed many massive heresies which infested the Church, such as Monothelitism, Monophysitism, Arianism, Marcionism, etc. And yet, you say they are not to be listened to, but rather your personal interpretation of Scripture.

This utter confusion in Protestantism is why we in the Orthodox Church are seeing tremendous growth here in the United States. People are beginning to find the historical faith of the Fathers and not the personal ideas of a bunch of disaffected Roman Catholics (Luther, Calvin, etc.)

LoveofTruth · Mar 28, 2024

Light of the East said:
This is why we need the Church.

I have the church and am part of the Church which is the body of Christ. Abd as John says

1 John 2: 20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things… 27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

Yes, God gives the gift of teachers and apostles abd prophets abd evangelist and pastors to the church and we are to listen for the witness of God in us and the revelation of the Spirit when we hear anything. It is by manifestation of the truth inwardly that we hear and our conscience also bears witness.

2 Corinthians 4: 2,6,7 “ But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God….6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”

And Christ works effectually in the measure of EVERY PART of the body to edify itself in love.

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

And we cannot say that one part is not needed 1 Cor 12

1 Corinthians 12: 21. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:”

Yet, many today trust in one man or a few who are exalted over them on a platform or thing called an “altar” and who wear long robes thatJesus warned against and are called father who Jesus warned against abd who quench the spirit in other believers by their man made order that fights against the commandments of God in God’s order where all are commanded to wait on Him and minister to one another .1 Corinthians 14:26-37, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Ephesians 4:10-16, etc)

Light of the East said:
What you are doing here is what all Protestants do -

It is what all true believers do according to scripture.

Light of the East said:
personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

No, spiritual revelation in Christ. You have your standard words you just puppet to those who are not Roman Catholic but they don’t stand firm and are moveable.

Light of the East said:
This is why you have thousands of different assemblies with hundreds of different dogmas, each one claiming they alone have the "true understanding" of the Bible and yet not agreeing with one another.

Many gatherings that are not Roman Catholic have very similar foundations but the reason for all error is when men follow the flesh the world the devil and the carnal mind. When they do not hear in the spirit abd have no revelation of God.

Light of the East said:
I've watched two Baptists condemn each other to hell over a minor difference in the understanding of baptism. If it wasn't so sad, it would be humorous.

There are so many disagreements among Roman Catholics and that have caused many to split and leave over the centuries. And there have always been false doctrines that must be marked and withdrawn from since the early days of the church.

But there are soo many doctrinal issues in the Catholic Catechism that are not according to scripture abd in error that it would take possibly 500 pages in here to just scratch the surface in dealing with them.

Light of the East said:
The Church is where the truth is found,

The church is the body of Christ where Jesus Christ lives within every believer and where God works in them through Christ and the Holy Spirit. The church is the pillar and ground of truth but when some in the world (who profess to be in the church of God) say things contrary to scripture like blessing same sex unions or wearing scapulars to escape hell or literally worship bread as God then there is a problem. The truth exposes these things. And that truth in inJesus and according to scripture given by the Spirit.

Light of the East said:
not in our personal understanding of the Scriptures, experiences, or anything else.

All believers can only speak from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is when me. Go away from that inward personal revelation that they begin to trust in men and put men above that which is written. You have no need any man (fleshly carnal men out of the spirit) teach you.

Light of the East said:
Again, you interpret this in a different manner than the Church.

No, I often give scriptures that say the exact thing I say. The church is the body of Christ and as part of that body I share what God shows me.

Light of the East said:
You see this as a spiritual baptism

I simply quote Paul who shows what the baptism every believer has is.

1 Corinthians 12: 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Light of the East said:
whereas I see this as the Church sees this:

You mean as a few in your Roman Catholic group see this contrary to the scripture I have.

Light of the East said:
that when you are baptized, the Spirit of God comes upon the water, blesses it, and makes it effacacious to the remission of sins and entering into Christ.

Not in scripture these words of “yours” are not in scripture. And without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.we also read ,

Revelation 1: 5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”

Light of the East · Mar 28, 2024

LoveofTruth said:
I have the church and am part of the Church which is the body of Christ. And as John says

If you are not Orthodox, you are not in the Church. Christ established His Church upon the authority He gave to the Apostles and those who would come after them. Throughout the history of the Christian faith, those who came up with the "strange fire" of different doctrines were no longer part of the Church. They were excommunicated and sent on their way to believe whatever they wished to believe, albeit with the prayers of the faithful for their repentance and return to the truth.

There is one Church. It was that way until the Western Church - Roman Catholicism - left the unity of the faith and began a process which would result in the splintering of Western Christianity into thousands of denominations. All of this confusion comes from not listening to the Church which Christ established upon the Apostles.

LoveofTruth said:
Yet, many today trust in one man or a few who are exalted over them on a platform or thing called an “altar” and who wear long robes that Jesus warned against and are called father who Jesus warned against and who quench the spirit in other believers by their man-made order that fights against the commandments of God in God’s order where all are commanded to wait on Him and minister to one another .

Looks like you have been reading too many Jack Chick tracts. Perhaps you might wish to read some Christian history rather than the musings of an anti-Catholic bigot. But be careful. You might wind up doing what I did - the unthinkable - and convert to Holy Orthodoxy, the true Church.

LoveofTruth said:
Many gatherings that are not Roman Catholic have very similar foundations but the reason for all error is when men follow the flesh the world the devil and the carnal mind. When they do not hear in the spirit and have no revelation of God.

I have to laugh when I read things like this. What you are really saying is that you, by dint of the personal revelation that God has given to your conscience, are correct and all the other Protestants here are wrong and are following either the world, the flesh, or the devil. The funny thing for me is that there are others here who will say the same thing about you because you don't agree with their doctrines.

Being in the true Church is a cure for that. We know what we believe, it was given to the Apostles, zealously guarded by each generation, and is the same teaching today that was taught in the beginning.

LoveofTruth said:
There are so many disagreements among Roman Catholics and that have caused many to split and leave over the centuries. And there have always been false doctrines that must be marked and withdrawn from since the early days of the church.

But there are so many doctrinal issues in the Catholic Catechism that are not according to scripture and in error that it would take possibly 500 pages in here to just scratch the surface in dealing with them.

While I am not in agreement with Roman Catholicism, it is only on a few issues. Much of what they do and teach has foundations in the Scriptures and the Early Church. It is a shame that they left the union of the Christian faith in 1054 AD by allowing the Frankish bishops to take over and insert the Filioque into the Creed. The hope of many Orthodox is that they will come to their senses, repudiate the few errors that have crept in (Indulgences, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc.) and restore the unity of the Church East and West.

LoveofTruth said:
The church is the body of Christ where Jesus Christ lives within every believer and where God works in them through Christ and the Holy Spirit. The church is the pillar and ground of truth but when some in the world (who profess to be in the church of God) say things contrary to scripture like blessing same sex unions or west scapulars to escape hell or literally worship bread as God then there is a problem. The truth exposes these things. And that truth in in Jesus and according to scripture given by the Spirit.

This is laughable because you claim to be a "Bible only" type, yet what you are claiming, i.e. a "spiritual body" of Christ, is nowhere to be found in Scripture. When St. Paul or any of the Early Christians spoke of the Church, they had no idea of some fantasy of a "spiritual body" composed of all believers in Jesus. What they spoke of was an earthly body with specific leaders who had been given specific authority by Christ Himself. The idea of a "spiritual body" is of very recent development.

LoveofTruth said:
Not in scripture these words of “yours” are not in scripture. And without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.we also read

You are like I was so many years ago - full of zeal, but lacking in full knowledge of the Bible. You challenge me that the words I speak are not in the Bible? Well, here they are:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Washing of Regeneration is BAPTISM. It regenerates and makes one part of the New Covenant.

simplefaith · Mar 28, 2024

Light of the East said:
If you are not Orthodox, you are not in the Church. Christ established His Church upon the authority He gave to the Apostles and those who would come after them. Throughout the history of the Christian faith, those who came up with the "strange fire" of different doctrines were no longer part of the Church. They were excommunicated and sent on their way to believe whatever they wished to believe, albeit with the prayers of the faithful for their repentance and return to the truth.

There is one Church. It was that way until the Western Church - Roman Catholicism - left the unity of the faith and began a process which would result in the splintering of Western Christianity into thousands of denominations. All of this confusion comes from not listening to the Church which Christ established upon the Apostles.

Looks like you have been reading too many Jack Chick tracts. Perhaps you might wish to read some Christian history rather than the musings of an anti-Catholic bigot. But be careful. You might wind up doing what I did - the unthinkable - and convert to Holy Orthodoxy, the true Church.

I have to laugh when I read things like this. What you are really saying is that you, by dint of the personal revelation that God has given to your conscience, are correct and all the other Protestants here are wrong and are following either the world, the flesh, or the devil. The funny thing for me is that there are others here who will say the same thing about you because you don't agree with their doctrines.

Being in the true Church is a cure for that. We know what we believe, it was given to the Apostles, zealously guarded by each generation, and is the same teaching today that was taught in the beginning.

While I am not in agreement with Roman Catholicism, it is only on a few issues. Much of what they do and teach has foundations in the Scriptures and the Early Church. It is a shame that they left the union of the Christian faith in 1054 AD by allowing the Frankish bishops to take over and insert the Filioque into the Creed. The hope of many Orthodox is that they will come to their senses, repudiate the few errors that have crept in (Indulgences, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc.) and restore the unity of the Church East and West.

This is laughable because you claim to be a "Bible only" type, yet what you are claiming, i.e. a "spiritual body" of Christ, is nowhere to be found in Scripture. When St. Paul or any of the Early Christians spoke of the Church, they had no idea of some fantasy of a "spiritual body" composed of all believers in Jesus. What they spoke of was an earthly body with specific leaders who had been given specific authority by Christ Himself. The idea of a "spiritual body" is of very recent development.

You are like I was so many years ago - full of zeal, but lacking in full knowledge of the Bible. You challenge me that the words I speak are not in the Bible? Well, here they are:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Washing of Regeneration is BAPTISM. It regenerates and makes one part of the New Covenant.

Does your church believe the unsaved, and people who are not part of the new covenant can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

Light of the East said:
If you are not Orthodox, you are not in the Church. Christ established His Church upon the authority He gave to the Apostles and those who would come after them. Throughout the history of the Christian faith, those who came up with the "strange fire" of different doctrines were no longer part of the Church. They were excommunicated and sent on their way to believe whatever they wished to believe, albeit with the prayers of the faithful for their repentance and return to the truth.

There is one Church. It was that way until the Western Church - Roman Catholicism - left the unity of the faith and began a process which would result in the splintering of Western Christianity into thousands of denominations. All of this confusion comes from not listening to the Church which Christ established upon the Apostles.

Looks like you have been reading too many Jack Chick tracts. Perhaps you might wish to read some Christian history rather than the musings of an anti-Catholic bigot. But be careful. You might wind up doing what I did - the unthinkable - and convert to Holy Orthodoxy, the true Church.

I have to laugh when I read things like this. What you are really saying is that you, by dint of the personal revelation that God has given to your conscience, are correct and all the other Protestants here are wrong and are following either the world, the flesh, or the devil. The funny thing for me is that there are others here who will say the same thing about you because you don't agree with their doctrines.

Being in the true Church is a cure for that. We know what we believe, it was given to the Apostles, zealously guarded by each generation, and is the same teaching today that was taught in the beginning.

While I am not in agreement with Roman Catholicism, it is only on a few issues. Much of what they do and teach has foundations in the Scriptures and the Early Church. It is a shame that they left the union of the Christian faith in 1054 AD by allowing the Frankish bishops to take over and insert the Filioque into the Creed. The hope of many Orthodox is that they will come to their senses, repudiate the few errors that have crept in (Indulgences, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc.) and restore the unity of the Church East and West.

This is laughable because you claim to be a "Bible only" type, yet what you are claiming, i.e. a "spiritual body" of Christ, is nowhere to be found in Scripture. When St. Paul or any of the Early Christians spoke of the Church, they had no idea of some fantasy of a "spiritual body" composed of all believers in Jesus. What they spoke of was an earthly body with specific leaders who had been given specific authority by Christ Himself. The idea of a "spiritual body" is of very recent development.

You are like I was so many years ago - full of zeal, but lacking in full knowledge of the Bible. You challenge me that the words I speak are not in the Bible? Well, here they are:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Washing of Regeneration is BAPTISM. It regenerates and makes one part of the New Covenant.

'''Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Washing of Regeneration is BAPTISM. It regenerates and makes one part of the New Covenant.'''

I imagine your orthodox church must believe the unsaved, who are not part of the new covenant can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues

LoveofTruth · Mar 29, 2024

Light of the East said:
If you are not Orthodox, you are not in the Church.

Show me one scripture written by the apostles that says what you just said? You have made up things that are against the body ministry and self governing under Christ headship order we see in the early church and as handed down to all who walk after.

Jesus said where two or more are gathered in his name he was there in the midst.

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." ( Matthew 18:20 KJV)

This means that if a bible was in a prison and a person read it and got saved, and he witnessed to another who also got saved, they can gather together in that prison their whole life and wait n the Lord and he would be in the midst of them. They would truly be part of the body of Christ the church and your doctrine would have them lost outside the church. This is wrong what you teach.

it doesn't exist. You go beyond that which is written and the order of God. Jesus Christ is the head, there is no exalted man or men over all controlling others faith. Even Paul said this

“Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.” (2 Corinthians 1:24 KJV)

Paul warned about men exalting themselves over the flock and rising up drawing away disciples after themselves,

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified." ( Acts 20:29-32 KJV)

Notice that Paul did not commend them to a central government with men over them but he commended them to God and the word of His grace.

"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good." ( 3 John 9-11 KJV)

I do follow the apostolic order given by the apostles, Paul was not some dictator over all or a controller of everyone. No each church was self governing under Christ headship. If they had issues they would be welcome to have other brothers from another gathering come and help work through them. But "orthodox" is simply this

Orthodox- (of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.
"orthodox medical treatment"

So yes i am following the church in God's order. I follow what was handed down by the apostles, and from scripture and live in the same Spirit as all believers of all time. Each church was autonomous in their area. We do not see a central leader or authority over all ruling them, except Christ in each and every believer, for it is God which worketh in them to make them perfect unto every good work. ( Hebrews 13;20,21 KJV(

And I also believe that every believer has the anointing which teaches them all things and as John said,

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” ( 1 John 2:27 KJV)

Light of the East said:
Christ established His Church upon the authority He gave to the Apostles and those who would come after them.

Not exactly. Jesus said " i will build my church. Paul was called an apostle , not of men or by men but by Jesus Christ.

“Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead) ”" ( Galatians 1:1 KJV)

God himself still gives apostles , prophets, evangelist , pastors and teachers for the church (Ephesians 4:10-16 KJV). And Christ works effectually in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love ( Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. " ( Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

This "edifying" is to build up as a house builder. So as the body gathers in Christ he is there in the midst building. He gives gifts to men and works in all. This is done in every church in the New testament, even after the preachers who planted the seeds there and gave God's order to them left. they were left with Christ to build His church in them. Paul directed men to this very thing and they were self governing, autonomous. Yes, thee were a plurality over elder/overseers in every church. But all could still share and edify each other. What elders do and don't so is another discussion. Lets say for now that your orthodox church has it wrong in so many ways I would be typing here for days.

But I can get into that if you are interested in discussing these important things in the love of Christ.

Your church is soo far from the true "orthdox" (handed down tradition and order of God as we see Jesus and the apostles showed and it can be shown clearly in scripture.

Light of the East said:
Throughout the history of the Christian faith, those who came up with the "strange fire" of different doctrines were no longer part of the Church.

In the beginning of the church order as seen in scripture those who exalted themselves over men and dominated and Lorded over and who tried to control the body were withdrawn from and warned against. ( 3 John 9-1, 2 Cor 11, Acts 20, etc). Quench not the spirit.

Light of the East said:
Looks like you have been reading too many Jack Chick tracts.

All I said there can be shown from scripture to correct, no other source in that response.

LoveofTruth · Mar 29, 2024

Light of the East said:
If you are not Orthodox, you are not in the Church. Christ established His Church upon the authority He gave to the Apostles and those who would come after them. Throughout the history of the Christian faith, those who came up with the "strange fire" of different doctrines were no longer part of the Church. They were excommunicated and sent on their way to believe whatever they wished to believe, albeit with the prayers of the faithful for their repentance and return to the truth.

There is one Church. It was that way until the Western Church - Roman Catholicism - left the unity of the faith and began a process which would result in the splintering of Western Christianity into thousands of denominations. All of this confusion comes from not listening to the Church which Christ established upon the Apostles.

Looks like you have been reading too many Jack Chick tracts. Perhaps you might wish to read some Christian history rather than the musings of an anti-Catholic bigot. But be careful. You might wind up doing what I did - the unthinkable - and convert to Holy Orthodoxy, the true Church.

I have to laugh when I read things like this. What you are really saying is that you, by dint of the personal revelation that God has given to your conscience, are correct and all the other Protestants here are wrong and are following either the world, the flesh, or the devil. The funny thing for me is that there are others here who will say the same thing about you because you don't agree with their doctrines.

Being in the true Church is a cure for that. We know what we believe, it was given to the Apostles, zealously guarded by each generation, and is the same teaching today that was taught in the beginning.

While I am not in agreement with Roman Catholicism, it is only on a few issues. Much of what they do and teach has foundations in the Scriptures and the Early Church. It is a shame that they left the union of the Christian faith in 1054 AD by allowing the Frankish bishops to take over and insert the Filioque into the Creed. The hope of many Orthodox is that they will come to their senses, repudiate the few errors that have crept in (Indulgences, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc.) and restore the unity of the Church East and West.

This is laughable because you claim to be a "Bible only" type,

I speak of the rule of faith as being to live and walk in the new creation in Christ, and the scriptures a secondary rule, only understood by those who have revelation of the Spirit.

Light of the East said:
yet what you are claiming, i.e. a "spiritual body" of Christ, is nowhere to be found in Scripture. When St. Paul or any of the Early Christians spoke of the Church, they had no idea of some fantasy of a "spiritual body" composed of all believers in Jesus.

What?

this is by far the most bizzar thing you have said. Scripture clearly speaks of a Spiritual body of Christ. Individuals are part of that body and even though the body of Christ also gathers physically the spiritual aspect of the body universally is also there. Christ is the head of the church and he dwells in every part of the body. This is His spiritual working in every believer. Jesus Christ is in every believer through faith, as Christ says.

Here are just a few scriptures that correct you.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many." 9 1 Cpr. 12:13,14 KJV)

Here we see that it is by the Spirit that all (notice the word ALL) believers ( that would be worldwide as well ) are baptized, (immersed into by the Spirit) into ONE body. Soo, if a believer is in Florida or in England, they are connected on spirit in Christ and seated together with Christ in heavenly places. They are one body in spirit even though they gather physically with a few parts of the body in certain places. God works in all the body inwardly as scripture shows.

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." ( Hebrews 13:20, 21 KJV)

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 F rom whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:15, 16 KJV)

“Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5 KJV)

Here we see that believers are a "spiritual house."

"“For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,”" (1 Cor. 5:3 KJV)

Even though Paul was not there in person he was there in spirit. Showing the connection of believers in a spiritual body of Christ no matter where they are.

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." ( 1 Cor. 15:44 KJV)

"“For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.”' (2 Corinthians 4;16 KJV)

“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:” (Romans 7:22 KJV)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”" (John 14:23 KJV)

The Son and the father will make their abode in believers. This is spiritual. The natural man receiveth not the things of God only the spiritual man can know them. This spiritual man is the new man in Christ. He is part of the body of Christ in spirit.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" * (1 Cor 2:11,12 KJV)

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" (Colossians 1:24-26 KJV)

His body is where Christ is in every believer. So if a man is in Africa, and has Christ dwelling in him , and another is in America and has Christ dwelling in him and working in him, they are both connected by Christ in spirit. Seated with Christ in heavenly places

“And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:” ( Ephesians 2"6 KJV)

"“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”" ( 2 Cor 11:5 KJV)

Jesus Christ in a believer is spiritual, this connect s them to his body where he is the head working on every believer in spirit.

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” ( Romans 8:9 KJV)

“For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,”

“In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Light of the East said:
What they spoke of was an earthly body with specific leaders who had been given specific authority by Christ Himself.

there is a physical life all believers have we live in the spirit and walk in the spirit regardless of being in the flesh also. Our flesh is to be denied and crucified and we put off the old man and put on the new man. The innward man is renewed day by day. We are strengthened with might y Gods Spirit in the inner man. This is the spiritual man that is in Christ and part of the spiritual body of Christ. As I could bring many scriptures for every word i say here.

Light of the East said:
The idea of a "spiritual body" is of very recent development.

No it stems way back even to the beginning of Genesis. And is seen all through the bible.

Light of the East said:
You are like I was so many years ago

I don;t think so, I came out of the Roman Catholic Church way back, I have been a believer for some 40 Years now.

Light of the East said:
...like I was so many years ago - full of zeal, but lacking in full knowledge of the Bible.

You said like you were, what happened to you then? How did you loose this.

LoveofTruth · Mar 29, 2024

Light of the East said:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

To be immersed ( baptized ) INTO JESUS CHRIST, or into the Name (authority power life etc of jesus Christ) in by the Spirit. In the name is the Key, this is not a formula of words the person must be in the power and life of Christ to be cleansed and washed from his sins in the blood of Christ for remission of sins. So Peter had the right words but there is more that we can understand by his words.

As man as have been baptized into Jesus Christ have put on Christ. Thus immersion into Jesus Christ is by the Spirit as we saw in 1 Cor 12:13, For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.

The expression in the name of is found in other places when men are baptized in to the name of the father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost. This in the name of refers to the power and authority and life in Christ. Jesus said one time

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.” ( John 17:12 KJV)

What do you think kept them in thy name means?

also Jesus aid

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”" (John 17:6)

“The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.” ( Proverbs 18:10 KJV)

how do you "run into" a name? and how is the name a strong tower?

also we read

“Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.” (Song of Solomon 1:3 KJV)

and we already saw that without the shedding of blood is no remission

"“And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.”" ( Hebrews 9:22 KJV)

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” ( Romans 3:25 KJV)

Notice here the expression for the remission of sins. This comes through faith in his blood and this declares His righteousness for the remission of sins.

“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”

And how are our sins washed (notice the word washed, this is a cleansing and inward work as we see in other scriptures.

also see this verse

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

This shows that belief is how we receive remission of sins.

Now we also read of John the baptist preaching about remission of sins, before Christ died on the cross. So this must have been a type of the remission of sins, that they could have through faith in God's righteousness and His provision.

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”

This water baptism for the remission of sins must have been a figure and type a shadow of the reality to come, because Jesus said

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

again as we read "without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22)

So Peter was still in some way under the law and going to the temple with all the sacrifices and Mosaic law and customs. Even in Acts 2, he was going to the temple. So Johns water baptism for the remission of sins was very close to him and they were still going to the Jews at that time. Peter had been water baptizing men as well as going to the temple and continuing in all the sacrifices etc even in Acts 2. Johns water baptism was under the old Covenant and was suppose to pass away and yet , like many Jewish believers did it did not, nor did the Old Covenant and sacrifices of animals and the Mosaic law and customs they practiced for many years as believers. ( read Acts 15 and 21 for more on this).Peter could only speak in a clean conscience when he had knowledge of things. It is not safe to act against conscience. Jesus said he had many things to say and to judge of them, but they were not able to receive these until the Holy Ghost would be given. We even see in Galatians 2 that peter was to be blamed by Paul in some things and the jewish law aspect was difficult for the early church to fully let go of. But I believe Peter and others did eventually. We see some evidence of this in Acts 10 and 15 with Peter.
And consider why jesus said this about Johns water baptism in the past tense.

“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” ( Acts 1:5 KJV)

This was also reminded to Peter when the Gentiles were visibly coming into the church in Acts 10, and we read Peter reminded of this in Acts 11. It was as if jesus was showing peter that Johns water baptism was past and was for the Jews. John baptized jesus to manifest him to Israel. This was not for the gentiles. But they continued in Johns water baptism and the whole law and sacrifices for many many years after Pentecost.

LoveofTruth · Mar 29, 2024

Light of the East said:
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The washing of regeneration is spiritual in nature and all those who are born again are born again by the spirit. Born of the Spirit as Jesus said. This is only through the blood of Christ. We are washed from our sins in his own blood as we read.

"“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,” (Revelation 1:5 KJV)

Aad this faith in is blood declares His righteousness for the remission of sins.

The outward washing is not the saving baptism into Christ. The saving baptism is by the Spirit where we are all baptized into one body (1 Cor 12:13 KJV) This is to be baptized in to Christ and put on Christ. not baptized into water and put on water.

W are also cleansed by the word which Jesus spoke. His word is like water to our souls and we are clean by the word, the washing of water by the word. This is the pure water of life in Christ.

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you." (John 15:3 KJV)

"...ven as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word," ( Ephesians 5:25, 26 KJV)

“And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.”" ( Revelation 22;1 KJV)

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you" Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV)

Peter spoke of the inward saving baptism and not an out ward washing here

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” ( 1 peter 3:21 KJV)

Here we see that Peter refers to the figure of Noahs ark and the flood as a type of salvation in Christ. Being in Noahs ark was a type of being in Christ. Noahs name means rest or resting place. We are in rest in Christ from our own works and the water judgement came on the old world as our old man dies and the ark was lifted up into the heavens as we are risen with Christ and now have a full assurance of hope by the resurrection of Christ.

So the saving baptism here is Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (or an outward washing with water, But it is the answer of a good conscience by the resurrection. This expression "answer of a good conscience" is a key here. The word “answer” means the inquiry. The person in the Old Testament could not ave a clean conscience by outward ordinances and diverse washings as we read in hebrews,

consider, the word "conscience, implies two words con ( with) science, ( knowledge) with knowledge. If a person does not have a clean conscience or perfect conscience or good conscience, then they are not with full knowledge or good understanding.

"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." ( Hebrews 9:8-10 KJV)

In the Old Testament they had many diverse washings and carnal ordinances that could not make them perfect as pertaining to the conscience. This means that they did not have the full knowledge of Gods work yet, Christ had not died yet on the cross, and animal sacrifices could not make them perfect as pertaining to the conscience. They did not have the knowledge.So this alone shows that no water baptism in outward washing or carnal ordinances and divers washings (baptismos in Greek) could give them a good conscience. But we read of what did give them a good conscience or clean conscience.

“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” ( Hebrews 9:14 KJV)

So this is how we have a good conscience.

Bible proof that the Thief on the cross never got water baptized.

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