Greece becomes first Orthodox Christian country to legalize same-sex marriage

Ignatius the Kiwi

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The Church has no concern about how the secular state runs it's business, just like the secular state has no beef in the church's business. Separation of church and state, religionists should do well to understand the concept.
The church has every concern in how the state is run. Christians, especially Orthodox Christians, have never accepted the notion that the Church has to be expelled from civil society and influence/power.

Why would we support a state which advocates things contrary to what our faith advocates? No Orthodox Christian in Greece should be supporting the trajectory of the current government.
 
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RileyG

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The church has every concern in how the state is run. Christians, especially Orthodox Christians, have never accepted the notion that the Church has to be expelled from civil society and influence/power.

Why would we support a state which advocates things contrary to what our faith advocates? No Orthodox Christian in Greece should be supporting the trajectory of the current government.
Amen! That goes for any Christian nation :)
 
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BCP1928

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You’re right. Don’t force people to conform to something they believe is wrong.
What are you being forced to conform with? Who the secular state issues civil marriage to does not effect your beliefs about Holy Matrimony.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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What are you being forced to conform with? Who the secular state issues civil marriage to does not effect your beliefs about Holy Matrimony.
It actively destroys an Orthodox conception of marriage and replaces it with a secular one which associates none of the sacred principles the Orthodox Church adheres to.

To say that legalizing "lgbt marriage" affects no one Is a demonstrable lie,as we've seen the social and societal affect on marriage in the West. It has been weakened and not strengthened according to any Christian aim. Orthodox Greek Christians would do well to recognize this as such. They don't have to accept the liberal narrative as we have our own superior Christian narrative.
 
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BCP1928

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It actively destroys an Orthodox conception of marriage and replaces it with a secular one which associates none of the sacred principles the Orthodox Church adheres to.
Destroys? Has the Orthodox rite of Holy Matrimony been curtailed? Can you not still withhold that ceremony from who you wish?

What about the civil marriage of Muslim heterosexual couple. They also cannot marry in the Orthodox Church. Or an atheist Hetero couple? Do those civil marriages also destroy the Orthodox conception of marriage?

You're just overreaching. If you were married in the Orthodox church without a civil marriage as well, the state would not consider you to be married. The reason is that they are two separate actions. You only own one of them.
To say that legalizing "lgbt marriage" affects no one Is a lie demonstrable lie as we've seen the social and societal affect on marriage in the West. Orthodox Greek Christians would do well to recognize this as such. They don't have to accept the liberal narrative as we have our own superior Christian narrative.
Baloney. Or, more formally, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
 
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BCP1928

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The church has every concern in how the state is run. Christians, especially Orthodox Christians, have never accepted the notion that the Church has to be expelled from civil society and influence/power.

Why would we support a state which advocates things contrary to what our faith advocates? No Orthodox Christian in Greece should be supporting the trajectory of the current government.
The Church exercises influence on a secular state only through the votes of its adherents. As an institution it has no separate political power.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The Church exercises influence on a secular state only through the votes of its adherents. As an institution it has no separate political power.
The church excercises influence through its existence and people adhering to its values. Political power is not illegitimate if it is not democratic and the Church does not have to submit itself to the approval of liberals and secularists. If we did that we'd be dying just like many of the mainline Churches are.

Orthodox Christians are not Episcopalians. We actually still believe in Christianity.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Baloney. Or, more formally, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
How has the expansion of marriage along liberal lines strengthened marriage in accordance with Christian interests or values?
 
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BCP1928

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The church excercises influence through its existence and people adhering to its values.
As I said, the Church exercises its political power through the votes of its adherents.
Political power is not illegitimate if it is not democratic and the Church does not have to submit itself to the approval of liberals and secularists. If we did that we'd be dying just like many of the mainline Churches are.
Why would you need the approval of secularists? You should be indifferent to it.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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As I said, the Church exercises its political power through the votes of its adherents.
As I said we excercise power through all sorts of means. Not merely the democratic. Orthodoxy has historically not respected democracy, let alone liberal democracy.
Why would you need the approval of secularists? You should be indifferent to it.
I am not indifferent to negative changes in society. Nor is the Church broadly.
 
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BCP1928

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How has the expansion of marriage along liberal lines strengthened marriage in accordance with Christian interests or values?
Christian marriage is unchanged. Christian marriage is no more weakened by a same sex civil marriage in Greece than by the marriage of two Muslims in Timbuktoo.
 
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BCP1928

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As I said we excercise power through all sorts of means. Not merely the democratic. Orthodoxy has historically not respected democracy, let alone liberal democracy.
Don't try that in this country. It won't just be secularists who get after you about it.
 
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kiwimac

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Technically it could be argued that the UK is a Christian nation in that it has an Established Church, with the King being Supreme Governer of that church and bishops sitting in the second chamber of Parliament, the House of Lords. Of course this has not prevented the majority of the population falling away from Christrianity, nor prevent a thriving Moslem population continue to gain adherents.

But I entirely get your point and agree.
nor ehoul it.
 
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Mayzoo

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So now we’re in this territory:


They don’t get as much regular exposure to someone of the same sex or opposite sex as someone with two opposite gendered parents. The most loving thing a same-sex parent could do would be to divorce their same-sexed spouse and bring an opposite gendered parent into the household. It’s not just speculation anymore. We have testimonials from these parents and their children.

1. Children with the two parents of the same sex as themselves struggle to relate to the opposite gender correctly. I remember watching a video of a girl raised by lesbian parents who was scared of men, for example, and she had to get over that. People in these situations may adopt homosexuality themselves because they view heterosexuality as too difficult or homosexuality as “normal”. If they wish to be heterosexual and follow Christ, they are left with a long and painful journey of learning about the opposite sex and how to relate to them correctly, while at the same time avoiding sexual compromise and getting pulled into abusive relationships (how are they supposed to avoid abusers when they don’t know what normal male or female behavior is like?).

2. Children with two parents of the opposite sex as themselves struggle to know who they are in terms of gender. I read a story in To My Trans Sisters about a biological male who turned trans because he was surrounded by women growing up with no male influence to show him who he was. Thus he assumed he was a girl too.

Admittedly this can have better outcomes, but it requires proactive effort on the part of the parents to expose their child to other same-sex adults. Example:


The other idea of a woman being raised by two dads creeps me out a bit because it’s similar to how I was raised, only much worse. As a woman being raised with my dad and brother, I was left with twice the amount of masculine influence, despite the fact that my mom was around. This means that I adopted a masculine temperament and was criticized by my female peer group for not performing as a woman. To this day it’s easier for me to get along with men and boys in my life and I still struggle with makeup and being female, getting along with women, and dealing with my significant quantity of masculine hobbies. I was fortunate that my mom taught me how to sew and how to read and how to study the Scriptures, at least. These are all things that Christian women are expected to do, in addition to cooking delicious baked goods (the latter of which I had to learn on my own).

I was raised with the idea that femininity was weak and inferior and that I had to perform masculinity to be accepted by the men in my life, and even to be myself. I’m not saying that’s universal, but I confess discomfort with the idea. Not to mention the fact that if the two dads aren’t actually loving, the consequences could be horrific beyond all description.

Should single parents get re-married as well? Even if to get remarried is to sin (divorce was not for adultery/abandonment)?
 
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Hans Blaster

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The church excercises influence through its existence and people adhering to its values. Political power is not illegitimate if it is not democratic and the Church does not have to submit itself to the approval of liberals and secularists. If we did that we'd be dying just like many of the mainline Churches are.
And yet you are insisting the reverse, that the state submit to the approval of the church.
Orthodox Christians are not Episcopalians. We actually still believe in Christianity.
Are there really any substantial differences?
 
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stevevw

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Should single parents get re-married as well? Even if to get remarried is to sin (divorce was not for adultery/abandonment)?
I think we should at least encourage the father to get more involved, not necessarily get back together but that would be good. But to strengthen family ties as this has many benefits for everyone and especially the child as deep down they want a mum and dad and they really want their mum and dad, the ones that brought them into this world.
 
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BCP1928

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Orthodox Christians are not Episcopalians. We actually still believe in Christianity.
You may be right. The Episcopal Church is not a club devoted to a prurient obsession with non-members sex lives.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You know, if I was a Democrat I might start thinking that it was time for the LGBT folks to take a hit for the team and go back in the closet for a while. The Dems have handled this particular front of the culture war very badly and there are more important issues at hand.

Yeah, like having a job so there's actually bread on the table.
 
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