What is grace?

Gary K · Nov 27, 2023

daq said:
Ephesians 2:8 contains doron which is most often rendered as gift but means more than that in ancient times: it literally means a gift-offering, and is used in many places in the LXX version of the Torah for the Hebrew word korban.

The most important gift-offering of the Meshiah is his Testimony which is now recorded in the Gospel accounts as a free gift-offering for any and all who are spiritually thirsty and will drink of that one Spirit.

Moreover because the Torah was given through Mosheh the Grace and the Truth came to be through Meshiah, (John 1:17), for he fills up the Torah and expounds the whole of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings in his Testimony, which is the Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29), and the new Spirit of the renewed covenant foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-28).

If the Father had not sent His Son to expound His Torah, Prophets, and Writings, we would never know how to walk pleasing unto Him because we would not understand His instructions and His will. Truly that is grace, (not to mention all of the other true aspects which others have already mentioned herein).

Korban is the word the Pharisees to justify people not taking care of their elderly parents.

Mark 7: 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

This is a word that has no relation to the word HS.

Mark Quayle · Nov 27, 2023

Gary K said:
Yes I'm getting that out of what you said.

Jesus said the following:

Matthew 12: 31 ¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Just what is it to claim that the word meaning HS is interpreted as another word meaning something else?

First you ask what is grace —is it just forgiveness. I ask for context, and you say that there are people saying that grace is the reason they don't need to keep the Sabbath, and that they equate grace with forgiveness. I try to extract some kind of meaning from what you say, because I haven't heard either one of those two things in that context, and I say so, to which you respond:
Gary K said:
Can we just ignore God's word, hang on to our sins and still expect to be saved?

Man, you are all over the place! We've gone from Grace to Sabbath to Ignoring God's Word and Hanging Onto Sin into Eternal Security to Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Can you come right out and say what is bothering you? Show a cogent line of thought that can be followed. You're taking potshots without effect. I can't even begin to see what you apparently see is a relevant sequence of thought to/from the OP.

daq · Nov 27, 2023

Gary K said:
Korban is the word the Pharisees to justify people not taking care of their elderly parents.

Mark 7: 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

As I said, and you apparently chose to ignore: doran is employed many times in the LXX version of the Torah for the Hebrew word korban. Just because the Pharisees used it doesn't make it evil.

קֻרְבָּן / קָרְבָּן
qorbân / qûrbân
BDB Definition:
1) offering, oblation
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7126
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2065e
Total KJV Occurrences: 81
offering, 66
Lev 1:2-3 (3), Lev 1:10, Lev 1:14 (2), Lev 3:1-2 (3), Lev 3:6-8 (3), Lev 3:12, Lev 3:14, Lev 4:23, Lev 4:28, Lev 4:32, Lev 5:11, Lev 6:20, Lev 7:13, Lev 7:16, Lev 9:7, Lev 9:15, Lev 17:4, Lev 23:14, Lev 27:9, Num 5:15, Num 6:14, Num 6:21, Num 7:3, Num 7:10-13 (4), Num 7:17, Num 7:19, Num 7:23, Num 7:25, Num 7:29, Num 7:31, Num 7:35, Num 7:37, Num 7:41, Num 7:43, Num 7:47, Num 7:49, Num 7:53, Num 7:55, Num 7:59, Num 7:61, Num 7:65, Num 7:67, Num 7:71, Num 7:73, Num 7:77, Num 7:79, Num 7:83, Num 9:7, Num 9:13, Num 15:4, Num 15:25, Num 28:2, Neh 10:34, Neh 13:31, Eze 20:28, Eze 40:43
oblation, 11
Lev 2:4-5 (2), Lev 2:7, Lev 2:12-13 (2), Lev 3:1, Lev 7:14, Lev 7:29, Lev 22:18, Num 18:9, Num 31:50
oblations, 1
Lev 7:38
offered, 1
Lev 7:15
offerings, 1
Lev 2:13
sacrifice, 1
Lev 27:11

Here is the first occurrence of doron in the LXX where the first occurrence of korban is found in the Hebrew text, (twice), and it continues so after this, very often if not always.

Leviticus 1:2 OG LXX
2 λαλησον τοις υιοις ισραηλ και ερεις προς αυτους ανθρωπος εξ υμων εαν προσαγαγη δωρα τω κυριω απο των κτηνων απο των βοων και απο των προβατων προσοισετε τα δωρα υμων

Leviticus 1:2 Brenton Septuagint Translation
2 If any man of you shall bring gifts [G1435 δωρον doron, (plural δωρα)] to the Lord, ye shall bring your gifts of the cattle and of the oxen and of the sheep.

Gary K said:
This is a word that has no relation to the word HS.

Huh? I responded to the question in your OP: not your current discussion about "the word HS".

HIM · Nov 27, 2023

HTacianas said:
Should I argue the meaning of a Greek word with a Greek priest?

Ancient Greek is not modern and spiritual things are spiritually discerned. So yes if God so moves.

HTacianas · Nov 27, 2023

HIM said:
Ancient Greek is not modern and spiritual things are spiritually discerned. So yes if God so moves.

I like the spiritual discernment of Greek priests.

Gary K · Nov 27, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
First you ask what is grace —is it just forgiveness. I ask for context, and you say that there are people saying that grace is the reason they don't need to keep the Sabbath, and that they equate grace with forgiveness. I try to extract some kind of meaning from what you say, because I haven't heard either one of those two things in that context, and I say so, to which you respond:
Gary K said:
Can we just ignore God's word, hang on to our sins and still expect to be saved?

Man, you are all over the place! We've gone from Grace to Sabbath to Ignoring God's Word and Hanging Onto Sin into Eternal Security to Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Can you come right out and say what is bothering you? Show a cogent line of thought that can be followed. You're taking potshots without effect. I can't even begin to see what you apparently see is a relevant sequence of thought to/from the OP.

I have no reason ro disbelieve you. What I'm saying is a long ways from the way you are accustomed to think of in this context. You're accustomed to thinking of grace as unmerited favor or forgiveness. The word translated as grace does not mean that at all.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

As God does not argue with Himself the word grace cannot mean what people are accustomed to thinking of it meaning.

Gary K · Nov 27, 2023

daq said:
As I said, and you apparently chose to ignore: doran is employed many times in the LXX version of the Torah for the Hebrew word korban. Just because the Pharisees used it doesn't make it evil.

קֻרְבָּן / קָרְבָּן
qorbân / qûrbân
BDB Definition:
1) offering, oblation
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7126
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2065e
Total KJV Occurrences: 81
offering, 66
Lev 1:2-3 (3), Lev 1:10, Lev 1:14 (2), Lev 3:1-2 (3), Lev 3:6-8 (3), Lev 3:12, Lev 3:14, Lev 4:23, Lev 4:28, Lev 4:32, Lev 5:11, Lev 6:20, Lev 7:13, Lev 7:16, Lev 9:7, Lev 9:15, Lev 17:4, Lev 23:14, Lev 27:9, Num 5:15, Num 6:14, Num 6:21, Num 7:3, Num 7:10-13 (4), Num 7:17, Num 7:19, Num 7:23, Num 7:25, Num 7:29, Num 7:31, Num 7:35, Num 7:37, Num 7:41, Num 7:43, Num 7:47, Num 7:49, Num 7:53, Num 7:55, Num 7:59, Num 7:61, Num 7:65, Num 7:67, Num 7:71, Num 7:73, Num 7:77, Num 7:79, Num 7:83, Num 9:7, Num 9:13, Num 15:4, Num 15:25, Num 28:2, Neh 10:34, Neh 13:31, Eze 20:28, Eze 40:43
oblation, 11
Lev 2:4-5 (2), Lev 2:7, Lev 2:12-13 (2), Lev 3:1, Lev 7:14, Lev 7:29, Lev 22:18, Num 18:9, Num 31:50
oblations, 1
Lev 7:38
offered, 1
Lev 7:15
offerings, 1
Lev 2:13
sacrifice, 1
Lev 27:11

Here is the first occurrence of doron in the LXX where the first occurrence of korban is found in the Hebrew text, (twice), and it continues so after this, very often if not always.

Leviticus 1:2 OG LXX
2 λαλησον τοις υιοις ισραηλ και ερεις προς αυτους ανθρωπος εξ υμων εαν προσαγαγη δωρα τω κυριω απο των κτηνων απο των βοων και απο των προβατων προσοισετε τα δωρα υμων

Leviticus 1:2 Brenton Septuagint Translation
2 If any man of you shall bring gifts [G1435 δωρον doron, (plural δωρα)] to the Lord, ye shall bring your gifts of the cattle and of the oxen and of the sheep.

Huh? I responded to the question in your OP: not your current discussion about "the word HS".

What does the word offering have to do with the person of the HS?

daq · Nov 27, 2023

Gary K said:
What does the word offering have to do with the person of the HS?

I do not see anything in the OP about "the person of the HS", and as I said, and everyone else should be able to see: I responded to the OP, not your current discussion. Why are you trying to force my response to your OP into your later discussion about something entirely different?

Gary K said:
Korban is the word the Pharisees to justify people not taking care of their elderly parents.

Mark 7: 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

By the way, if you as an SDA say as the SDA that there are so-called ceremonial commandments, ordinances, statutes, and judgments that are now done away with or set aside, then you are not honoring your heavenly Father and heavenly Mother. This understanding of that commandment, the fifth of the Ten, is taught in the Torah and expounded by Paul. All of the commandments ultimately derive from the Ten: and that one pertains to the feasts unto the Father which are to be observed three times in a year, which you as an SDA, if you uphold what they teach, proclaim to no longer be applicable to yourselves.

Galatians 4:22-27 KJV
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. [Isa 54:1]

And from the quote which Paul provides we see that Yerushalem of above, our mother-covenant, is likened to the Mishkan-Tabernacle of the Torah.

Isaiah 54:1-3 KJV
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. [Gal 4:27]
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

The tent, the curtains, the cords, the stakes: all of these items are part of the Tabernacle and our spiritual mother and covenant, Yerushalem of above by the allegory through Sarah according to Paul.

Gary K · Nov 28, 2023

daq said:
I do not see anything in the OP about "the person of the HS", and as I said, and everyone else should be able to see: I responded to the OP, not your current discussion. Why are you trying to force my response to your OP into your later discussion about something entirely different?

By the way, if you as an SDA say as the SDA that there are so-called ceremonial commandments, ordinances, statutes, and judgments that are now done away with or set aside, then you are not honoring your heavenly Father and heavenly Mother. This understanding of that commandment, the fifth of the Ten, is taught in the Torah and expounded by Paul. All of the commandments ultimately derive from the Ten: and that one pertains to the feasts unto the Father which are to be observed three times in a year, which you as an SDA, if you uphold what they teach, proclaim to no longer be applicable to yourselves.

Galatians 4:22-27 KJV
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. [Isa 54:1]

And from the quote which Paul provides we see that Yerushalem of above, our mother-covenant, is likened to the Mishkan-Tabernacle of the Torah.

Isaiah 54:1-3 KJV
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. [Gal 4:27]
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

The tent, the curtains, the cords, the stakes: all of these items are part of the Tabernacle and our spiritual mother and covenant, Yerushalem of above by the allegory through Sarah according to Paul.

I started the thread and I can point the thread in the direction I want it to go. If you don't like the point of the thread you don't have to participate.

daq · Nov 28, 2023

Gary K said:
I started the thread and I can point the thread in the direction I want it to go. If you don't like the point of the thread you don't have to participate.

Wow, so if someone answers your OP they are now off topic?
Alrighty then, to each his own I suppose.

HIM · Nov 28, 2023

HTacianas said:
I like the spiritual discernment of Greek priests.

God ordained us all Priests. Jesus Christ being the High Priest.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pet 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pet 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Gary K · Nov 28, 2023

daq said:
Wow, so if someone answers your OP they are now off topic?
Alrighty then, to each his own I suppose.

Saying the HS is a person is taking the thread in a different direction. He is referred to as a person by no less a personage than Jesus.

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

This is not exactly hard to find.

HTacianas · Nov 28, 2023

HIM said:
God ordained us all Priests. Jesus Christ being the High Priest.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pet 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pet 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

God ordained all of Israel as priests. But not all Israelites were priests.

Gary K · Nov 28, 2023

HTacianas said:
God ordained all of Israel as priests. But not all Israelites were priests.

Do you have scripture for that? The priests of the family during the time of the patriarchs were the first born.

HIM · Nov 28, 2023

HTacianas said:
God ordained all of Israel as priests. But not all Israelites were priests.

God ordained all Christians as priests but not all Christians are Christian.

HTacianas · Nov 28, 2023

Gary K said:
Do you have scripture for that? The priests of the family during the time of the patriarchs were the first born.

Exo 19:6 - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Israel was to evangelize the world. See Isaiah 2:3:

... for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

They failed in that until it was taken up by the Apostles. You mentioned the firstborn sons as being priests. That's correct. That is why Aaron was a priest, but more importantly, Melchesidic was a priest. The law that has gone forth from Zion is the same law that was in effect during the time of Melchesidic. See Hebrews 7:11-12.

Gary K · Nov 28, 2023

HIM said:
God ordained all Christians as priests but not all Christians are Christian.

A time is coming when that will be true. You've given no scripture to back up your assertion about Israel.

HIM · Nov 28, 2023

Gary K said:
A time is coming when that will be true. You've given no scripture to back up your assertion about Israel.

Never said anything about Israel. As far as Christian go regardless of nationality, there is this

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pet 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pet 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Clare73 · Nov 28, 2023

daq said:
Ephesians 2:8 contains doron which is most often rendered as gift but means more than that in ancient times: it literally means a gift-offering, and is used in many places in the LXX version of the Torah for the Hebrew word korban.

The most important gift-offering of the Meshiah is his Testimony which is now recorded in the Gospel accounts as a free gift-offering for any and all who are spiritually thirsty and will drink of that one Spirit.

Contraire. . .that testimony is naught without his death on the cross to accomplish all to which he testified.

daq said:
Moreover because the Torah was given through Mosheh the Grace and the Truth came to be through Meshiah, (John 1:17), for he fills up the Torah and expounds the whole of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings in his Testimony, which is the Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29), and the new Spirit of the renewed covenant foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-28).

If the Father had not sent His Son to expound His Torah, Prophets, and Writings, we would never know how to walk pleasing unto Him because we would not understand His instructions and His will. Truly that is grace, (not to mention all of the other true aspects which others have already mentioned herein).

Clare73 · Nov 28, 2023

Gary K said:
I just got to thinking about it. There a lot of threads in this forum saying we don't need to keep the Sabbath and they claim grace is the reason they don't need to keep it. They equate the meaning of grace with the word forgiveness. Scripturally speaking that just isn't true for one person of the God head does not contradict another.

Forgiveness is grace, but that is not always what grace is.

What is grace?

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