Justification by Faith

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

Strong in Him said:
If someone is arguing with another Christian, or anyone, they are not loving their neighbour.

No. That is not right or you make Christ Himself someone who is not loving and is in sin.

Strong in Him · Aug 19, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
It says in danger of the eternal punishment of hell.

Ok, so you're saying that while David was committing the sin of adultery, he was in dangers of the fires of hell and eternal punishment?
Even if that were true, again - so what? He clearly didn't go there; he repented.

Bible Highlighter said:
Most Christians know this, and neither did I imply that David was condemned forever.

So he was temporarily condemned; for 1/2 hour, 1/2 day, whatever? Again - so what?
He repented and was not damned.

Bible Highlighter said:
Why would you assume that a believer would sin multiple times in a day?
That does not sound like a changed believer to me.

We can sin in thought, word, deed, desire etc and in what we fail to do, James 4:17 says that if a person knows what they should do and does not do it, that is sin. So if we know we SHOULD give more to charity, visit our cranky neighbour, spend more time with God etc etc but don't - it's sin. Jesus said that thinking evil of someone is as bad as murder, looking lustfully at someone is as bad as adultery.
I don't believe it is possible for anyone to be perfect in thought, word, desire, deed etc 24/7. Therefore, they/we sin many times a day.

Bible Highlighter said:
As for eternal life. Jesus alone has immortality (See 1 Timothy 6:15-16). So in order for you to have eternal life, you have to abide in Christ who is the source of eternal life.

Yes, agreed.
But eternal life is eternal. How can it be given, received, lost temporarily moments/days later and then re-given on repentance?

Strong in Him · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
No. That is not right or you make Christ Himself someone who is not loving and is in sin.

No, Jesus didn't argue with the Pharisees. He told them a few home truths, but didn't argue that he was right and they weren't, or that his teaching was better.
Otherwise Jesus would have been guilty of the sin of hypocrisy - telling someone else not to do something, while doing it himself.

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

Strong in Him said:
No, Jesus didn't argue with the Pharisees. He told them a few home truths, but didn't argue that he was right and they weren't, or that his teaching was better.
Otherwise Jesus would have been guilty of the sin of hypocrisy - telling someone else not to do something, while doing it himself.

Where does Christ tell us not to argue with people?

Strong in Him · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Where does Christ tell us not to argue with people?

We were discussing Matthew 5:23-24.
BibleHighlighter seemed to be arguing that those verses don't apply any more, because the Jewish gift would have been an animal sacrifice, and we are not under Jewish law.
I was saying that the principle is still the same - if you are trying to offer a gift to God and are in dispute, or disagreement, with another person; go and resolve that first. The teaching is, reconcile with your neighbour/brother before you offer a gift in worship. Whatever the gift that we are offering to God, that teaching is still true.

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

Strong in Him said:
We were discussing Matthew 5:23-24.

That's about an offense. Much like this:

"Then Peter approached him and asked, “Lord, how many times must I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? As many as seven times?”
“I tell you, not as many as seven,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven." (Matthew 18:21–22)

Strong in Him · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
That's about an offense. Much like this:

"Then Peter approached him and asked, “Lord, how many times must I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? As many as seven times?”
“I tell you, not as many as seven,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven." (Matthew 18:21–22)

The point is that the teaching "if you are in dispute with/have something against your brother, first reconcile, then worship," still applies today - no matter what the nature of the gift is.

All Becomes New · Aug 19, 2023

Strong in Him said:
The point is that the teaching "if you are in dispute with/have something against your brother, first reconcile, then worship," still applies today - no matter what the nature of the gift is.

It's about seeking reconciliation, which indeed applies today. But in context, it is about your animal sacrifice. Christ is saying (like other places in the OT) that your sacrifice has to be done for the right reasons. Plenty of passages about God not liking the sacrifices of His people because their heart is not in the right place. That's what it is about. How it applies today is that we should not be hypocrites by pleasing God with our lips while we have treated our neighbor poorly and they have something against us. IDK what this has to do with gifts today.

Strong in Him · Aug 19, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
It's about seeking reconciliation, which indeed applies today. But in context, it is about your animal sacrifice. Christ is saying (like other places in the OT) that your sacrifice has to be done for the right reasons. Plenty of passages about God not liking the sacrifices of His people because their heart is not in the right place. That's what it is about. How it applies today is that we should not be hypocrites by pleasing God with our lips while we have treated our neighbor poorly and they have something against us.

Precisely.
The comment was made that because, in Jesus' day, "gift" referred to animal sacrifice and we don't offer animal sacrifices now, the verses do not apply to us.

I was disagreeing with the person who made that comment.

lanceleo · Aug 19, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I just demonstrated that this was not the case by way of a real-world example. Please go back and carefully reread the post you quoted.

Oh, and Jesus does accept real-world examples, too. We learn this happened between the Canaanite woman and Jesus in Matthew 15:26-27. Jesus did not say that He was the exclusive parable (real-world example) maker. Jesus accepted the woman's parable or real-world example (which was an extension of his own). So I offered a real-world example of how real gifts would work in real life. It appears your view of gift is not in line with reality (which we know God would accept because He did so before with the Canaanite woman).

This is only true in our INITIAL salvation or the FIRST aspect of salvation. Believers are INITIALLY saved by God's grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). Paul spoke many times about how we need to be saved by a belief alone without works (referring to our Initial Salvation) because of the heresy of what I call, "Circumcision Salvationism. " This was the false belief during the time that said you had to first be circumcised in order to be saved.

We learn of this heresy in Acts 15:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Paul himself gave us clues that he was also attacking this heresy, as well.

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

But this does not undo the secondary aspect of salvation, which is the Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life (as a part of God's plan of salvation).

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Good works are useful as evidences of grace. If you are saved by grace, you will always be saved by grace regardless of how long you have been in faith. After you believe, there will be good works as the effect of your faith. But if you think faith will be the effect of good works, you are mistaken. There will be works to follow. There was never a true faith which did not produce works.

Sanctification is the progressive disconnect in the life of a believer from sin towards righteousness. When someone is saved, he has been justified and has been declared righteous and then the Spirit of God begins a process of not only declaring him righteous but making him righteous. The Holy Spirit work in the believer's life to continually separate him from sin. It's never about us or our works else that would make us an earner of our salvation.

lanceleo · Aug 19, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Ephesians 4:30
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

But this seal is not a padlock or a guarantee against sin or disobedience against God.

The Spirit can be grieved but it never says it will leave the believers. Eph 4:30 is written to NT believers who have believed in the Lord Jesus Chist. Sealed according to Strongs means:

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
for security: from Satan

Bible Highlighter said:
Isaiah 63:10 (NKJV)
"But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them."

Pray tell how many times have you sinned after being saved? According to you, you must be God's enemy now and have totally undone God's works of salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 19, 2023

lanceleo said:
Good works are useful as evidences of grace. If you are saved by grace, you will always be saved by grace regardless of how long you have been in faith. After you believe, there will be good works as the effect of your faith. But if you think faith will be the effect of good works, you are mistaken. There will be works to follow. There was never a true faith which did not produce works.

Sanctification is the progressive disconnect in the life of a believer from sin towards righteousness. When someone is saved, he has been justified and has been declared righteous and then the Spirit of God begins a process of not only declaring him righteous but making him righteous. The Holy Spirit work in the believer's life to continually separate him from sin. It's never about us or our works else that would make us an earner of our salvation.

No Bible verses to back up your claims here.

Guojing · Aug 19, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
So we have to rightly divide which commands apply and which do not.

One person's rightly divide is another person's slice and dice, would you agree?

BrotherJJ · Aug 21, 2023

2 Timothy 2:15 Rightly Divide The Word Of Truth

Source: Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: divide

Greek orthotomeo - English dividing - Strongs 3718:
"to cut straight" is found in 2 Tim 2:15 "rightly dividing,"

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, "rightly dividing the word of truth".
(MY NOTE: We divide by cutting a straight line)

Question: Where do we cut the straight dividing line in the word of truth?

Answer: The Death & Resurrection of Christ

Heb 9:
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(MY NOTE: While Jesus is alive the old Mosaic law covenant is in full force. The New Testament/Covenant gospel of the GRACE of God (Acts 20:24). Doesn't begin until after Christ's death & resurrection)

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(MY NOTE: Jesus is the covenant testator)

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
(MY NOTE: Jesus taught, lived, kept, & fulfilled old covenant Mosaic laws. There is no new covenant until after Jesus (the Testator) dies.

2 Cor 3:7 (A) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
(MY NOTE: The law engraved in stones (10 commandments) exposes & administers death for sin.)

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(MY NOTE: NT believers are not under the law, but under grace).

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
(MY NOTE: A sinless Jesus sacrificial death & resurrection, paid in full. The sins required wage/DEATH. And removes ALL the believers sin)

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(MY NOTE: FAITH placed in Christ' God-BLOOD (Once for ALL Time Heb 10:10) sin atoning death & resurrection. REDEEMS NT believers from the laws, sin administered sentence/DEATH)

Jesus sin atoning payment found in his death (sins required wage PAID), burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Fathers receipt, sins payment received & accepted). Is seized/accessed via FAITH (Rom 5:1-2, 10:9-10, Eph 1:13, 2:8) placed in the faithful, obedient & FINISHED work of Jesus the Christ!

FredVB · Aug 25, 2023

BrotherJJ said:
(MY NOTE: Believers in Jesus sin atoning work are justified/declared righteous & made acceptable to the Father. Through faith distinctly apart from works of the Law!)

Definitely, apart from works of any of us who are believers. It was still the works of Christ, who yet bore the full consequence in justice for our sins while he had no sins himself, fulfilling the actual requirement for priesthood and sacrifice for atonement, and for the way to truly be made clean to come before God, which was modeled by things in the law, while commandments were for showing the way we should live in righteousness, while the righteousness we need is from Christ who we should abide in, and it is all we really need on us all the time.

BrotherJJ · Aug 26, 2023

Der Alte said:
I think that is exactly what Hebrew 10 means.

Hebrews 10:26-31

(26) For if we [Christians] sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions.

Biblegateway link above lists 60 Bible version. NONE! Of them has CHRISTIANS inserted in Heb 10:26. That includes the link you've provided in your post. You ADDED [Christians] to the actual bible context!

I encourage everyone to follow the link Biblia Bible. Hebrews 10:26-31 link Der Alte provided & see the TRUTH!

The epistle is written to Hebrews, prior to the destruction of the Temple. The animal sacrificial system is still in full operation.

Heb 10: (paraphrasing)
1 The Mosaic law sacrificial system was a SHADOW of the coming BETTER sin management system.

4 The blood of animal sacrifices COULDN'T take away sin.

8 The OT Levitical law animal sacrifices are no longer acceptable!

10 Jesus ONCE for ALL TIME/ God blood offering/sacrifice is good FOREVER!

11 OT animal sacrifices COULDN'T take away sins!!!

12 Jesus's sinless God blood offering was good ONCE FOREVER & He SAT DOWN at the Father's right hand. The ULTIMATE law fulfilling sacrifice for sins is FINISHED!

14 Jesus by ONE offering perfected FOREVER all that are sanctified.

15, 16, 17 Jesus sacrifice is the fulfillment of God's promised new covenant

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them saith the Lord, via my indwelling Holy Spirit. I will write my laws in their hearts & minds

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Jesus sacrifice removes ALL sin, there is no further need in offering's for sin.

20 Those that have accessed Christs ONCE for ALL sacrifice. Are clean through faith in His broken body.

21 Jesus is now & FOREVER High Priest over a BETTER sin management system

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(MY NOTE: Read ALL CONTEXT leading up to this verse. Its Old covenant animal sacrifices. (anyone know any Christians bring an animal sacrifice the Church?) Have been REPLACED, with Jesus New covenant Once for All Time sacrifice. The WILFUL sin these Hebrews are committing is they're bringing animal sin sacrifices to the Temple priests)

28 He that """despised Moses' law""" died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: [ A-3,Verb,G4065, periphroneo ] DESPISED:
in Hebrews 10:28, "hath set at nought;" See DISANNUL, REJECT, VOID, No. 2.

Despise, Despiser - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

(PARSING VINES: Vines verifiable Greek to English translators. Define DESPISED > hath set at naught/REJECTED. They knew the truth about Messiah's sin atoning death. By bringing an animal sacrifice to the Temple (TO AVOID PERSECUTION) they REJECT Him.

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath """"trodden under foot the Son of God""", and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(MY NOTE: See TRODDEN commentaries below. Punishment may be coming , for your UNHOLY REJECTION of Messiah/the Son of God's sacrificial blood of the NEW covenant. You've REJECTED Him in spite of His Spirit of grace!

32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
(MY NOTE: These verses prove this audience that's being addressed KNEW the TRUTH!)

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(MY NOTE: This verse proves THEY NEVER RECEIVED the PROMISE/HOLY SPIRIT (Lk 24:49). PROMISED FULFILLED (Acts 2:4). They were NOT/EVER Christians!

Parable of the sower:
Mk 4:
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Finally: Under the new covenant the only unforgivable sin is, REJECTING/CHRIST/UNBELIEF!

TRODDEN
Clarke's Commentary
Trodden under foot the Son of God — Treated him with the utmost contempt and blasphemy.

Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible
Trodden under foot here translates a Greek word used by Matthew for heartless and totally indifferent action.

Smith's Bible Commentary
So the three things: he's trodden under foot the Son of God, counted the blood of Christ as nothing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace.

Der Alte · Aug 26, 2023

BrotherJJ said:
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions.
Biblegateway link above lists 60 Bible version. NONE! Of them has CHRISTIANS inserted in Heb 10:26. That includes the link you've provided in your post. You ADDED [Christians] to the actual bible context!
I encourage everyone to follow the link Biblia Bible. Hebrews 10:26-31 link Der Alte provided & see the TRUTH!
The epistle is written to Hebrews, prior to the destruction of the Temple. The animal sacrificial system is still in full operation.
Heb 10: (paraphrasing)
1 The Mosaic law sacrificial system was a SHADOW of the coming BETTER sin management system.
4 The blood of animal sacrifices COULDN'T take away sin.
8 The OT Levitical law animal sacrifices are no longer acceptable!
10 Jesus ONCE for ALL TIME/ God blood offering/sacrifice is good FOREVER!
11 OT animal sacrifices COULDN'T take away sins!!!
12 Jesus's sinless God blood offering was good ONCE FOREVER & He SAT DOWN at the Father's right hand. The ULTIMATE law fulfilling sacrifice for sins is FINISHED!
14 Jesus by ONE offering perfected FOREVER all that are sanctified.
15, 16, 17 Jesus sacrifice is the fulfillment of God's promised new covenant
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them saith the Lord, via my indwelling Holy Spirit. I will write my laws in their hearts & minds
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Jesus sacrifice removes ALL sin, there is no further need in offering's for sin.
20 Those that have accessed Christs ONCE for ALL sacrifice. Are clean through faith in His broken body.
21 Jesus is now & FOREVER High Priest over a BETTER sin management system
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(MY NOTE: Read ALL CONTEXT leading up to this verse. Its Old covenant animal sacrifices. (anyone know any Christians bring an animal sacrifice the Church?) Have been REPLACED, with Jesus New covenant Once for All Time sacrifice. The WILFUL sin these Hebrews are committing is they're bringing animal sin sacrifices to the Temple priests)
28 He that """despised Moses' law""" died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: [ A-3,Verb,G4065, periphroneo ] DESPISED:
in Hebrews 10:28, "hath set at nought;" See DISANNUL, REJECT, VOID, No. 2.

Despise, Despiser - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
(PARSING VINES: Vines verifiable Greek to English translators. Define DESPISED > hath set at naught/REJECTED. They knew the truth about Messiah's sin atoning death. By bringing an animal sacrifice to the Temple (TO AVOID PERSECUTION) they REJECT Him.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath """"trodden under foot the Son of God""", and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(MY NOTE: See TRODDEN commentaries below. Punishment may be coming , for your UNHOLY REJECTION of Messiah/the Son of God's sacrificial blood of the NEW covenant. You've REJECTED Him in spite of His Spirit of grace!
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
(MY NOTE: These verses prove this audience that's being addressed KNEW the TRUTH!)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(MY NOTE: This verse proves THEY NEVER RECEIVED the PROMISE/HOLY SPIRIT (Lk 24:49). PROMISED FULFILLED (Acts 2:4). They were NOT/EVER Christians!
Parable of the sower:
Mk 4:
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Finally: Under the new covenant the only unforgivable sin is, REJECTING/CHRIST/UNBELIEF!
TRODDEN
Clarke's Commentary
Trodden under foot the Son of God — Treated him with the utmost contempt and blasphemy.
Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible
Trodden under foot here translates a Greek word used by Matthew for heartless and totally indifferent action.
Smith's Bible Commentary
So the three things: he's trodden under foot the Son of God, counted the blood of Christ as nothing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace.

Most of this post is wasted bandwidth. You are only partly right, the letter/book of Hebrews was written to Hebrews, by nationality. But they were NOT Torah observant Jews, at the time of the writing, they were Jewish Christians. Torah observant Jews then and today do NOT acknowledge Yeshua/Jesus as high priest see Heb 10:21. And FYI nothing in Acts or any other book proves anything about the Hebrews to whom the book of Hebrews was written. In one of their writings "Toledot Yeshu" they refer to Jesus as a Mamzer. of illegitimate birth.

BrotherJJ · Aug 26, 2023

Der Alte said:
Most of this post is wasted bandwidth. You are only partly right, the letter/book of Hebrews was written to Hebrews, by nationality. But they were NOT Torah observant Jews, at the time of the writing, they were Jewish Christians. Torah observant Jews then and today do NOT acknowledge Yeshua/Jesus as high priest see Heb 10:21. And FYI nothing in Acts or any other book proves anything about the Hebrews to whom the book of Hebrews was written. In one of their writings "Toledot Yeshu" they refer to Jesus as a Mamzer. of illegitimate birth.

Here's what this posts proves contrary to the > [Christians] your post ADDED to Scripture

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions.

Biblegateway link above lists 60 Bible versions. NONE! Of them has CHRISTIANS inserted in Heb 10:26.

That includes the Biblia Bible link. Hebrews 10:26-31 you provided in post #326

Heb 10:
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
(MY NOTE: These Hebrews were illuminated/Knew the truth about who Jesus was)

34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
(MY NOTE: These vrs prove this audience that's being addressed professed knowing the TRUTH! However (next verse) never possessed it!)

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(MY NOTE: This verse proves THEY NEVER RECEIVED the PROMISE/HOLY SPIRIT (Luke 24:49). PROMISED FULFILLED (Acts 2:4). They were NOT/EVER Christians! A Christian has Christ's Holy Spirit dwelling IN-THEM! Col 1:27, Gal 3:14.

Parable of the sower: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mk 4:
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

The Promise/HOLY SPITIT verse 36 cited these Hebrews never received. Is God's eternal salvation (all Christians possess it) SEAL of eternal life

Vine's dictionary has 15 verifiable Greek to English translators. Experts in Greek nouns & their grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, neuter & how their used in a number, singular, dual, or plural. And all respects of Greek from verbs to mood, voice, aspect, tense, number, and person.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: definition - English "SEAL" = Greek "sphragis" context as a Noun - Strongs ref #4973

(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

English "seal" = Greek "sphragizo" context as a verb - Strongs ref #4972
(d) ownership and security, three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13 , in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (see also Ephesians 1:14 ); so Ephesians 4:30 , "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;"
Seal (Noun and Verb) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

MY NOTE: Vine's Greek to English translation experts define SEAL & cited verses Eph 1:13, 14, 4:30: The SEAL of the living God. Denoting His ownership, SECURING the BELIEVER from destruction & marking them for reward!

QUOTING VINES: Not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith. Jesus sin payment bought, paid for & eternally secures the believers eternal life DONE DEAL/FINISHED TRANSACTION!)

Vines calls God's eternal SEAL/Holy Spirit a GIFT. Scripture also proclaims the Holy Spirit is a GIFT received thru FAITH (Rom 6:23, Jn 5:24) GIFTS are given, NOT earned!

Who is one to believe about eternal life? Scripture & expert translators that proclaim salvation is FOREVER/eternal life. Or a few unknown faceless posters on a chat forum? Easy choice for me, others are free to make their own.

Final thought:
The notion what Jesus endured, He became a curse (Gal 3:13) He became sin (2 Cor 5:21) taking ALL SINS DUE/REQUIRED JUDGMENT, His face was beaten beyond recognition (Isa 52:14) All His back flesh removed by cata 9 tails, publicly striped nude, nailed to a cross etc. And somehow this wasn't quite enough. And He needs their help complete a sin redemption work that He proclaimed IS FINISHED.

Finally: Under the new covenant the only unforgivable sin is, REJECTING CHRIST = UNBELIEF!

Der Alte · Aug 26, 2023

BrotherJJ said:
Here's what this posts proves contrary to the > [Christians] your post ADDED to Scripture
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions.
Biblegateway link above lists 60 Bible versions. NONE! Of them has CHRISTIANS inserted in Heb 10:26.
That includes the Biblia Bible link. Hebrews 10:26-31 you provided in post #326
* * *

Largely irrelevant post, most of which I ignored. Nothing you posted shows or implies that I was incorrect in emphasizing that the audience in Hebrews were Jewish Christians. Torah observant Jews then and now did not/do not recognize Jesus as the High Priest which is stated in Heb 10:21. The apostle Paul was persecuted everywhere he went

2 Corinthians 11:24-26
(24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
(25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
(26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

When the writer of Hebrew said "we" and "us" he was not talking to Torah observant Jews who were not Christians.

BrotherJJ · Aug 26, 2023

Der Alte said:
Largely irrelevant post, most of which I ignored. Nothing you posted shows or implies that I was incorrect in emphasizing that the audience in Hebrews were Jewish Christians. Torah observant Jews then and now did not/do not recognize Jesus as the High Priest which is stated in Heb 10:21. The apostle Paul was persecuted everywhere he went

2 Corinthians 11:24-26

(24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

(25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

(26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
When the writer of Hebrew said "we" and "us" he was not talking to Torah observant Jews who were not Christians.

It's your last reply that's irrelevant. The fact is these Hebrews in verse 10:26 weren't Christians!

Here's what this posts proves contrary to the > [Christians] your post ADDED to Scripture

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions.

Biblegateway link above lists 60 Bible versions. NONE! Of them has CHRISTIANS inserted in Heb 10:26.

That includes the Biblia Bible link. Hebrews 10:26-31 you provided in post #326

Heb 10:
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
(MY NOTE: These Hebrews were illuminated/Knew the truth about who Jesus was)

34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
(MY NOTE: These vrs prove this audience that's being addressed professed knowing the TRUTH! However (next verse) never possessed it!)

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(MY NOTE: This verse proves THEY NEVER RECEIVED the PROMISE/HOLY SPIRIT (Luke 24:49). PROMISED FULFILLED (Acts 2:4). They were NOT/EVER Christians! A Christian has Christ's Holy Spirit dwelling IN-THEM! Col 1:27, Gal 3:14.

The Promise/HOLY SPIRIT vs 36 cited these Hebrews never received. Is God's eternal salvation SEAL (all Christians possess it) of eternal life

Parable of the sower:
Mk 4:
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

The Promise/HOLY SPITIT vs 36 cited these Hebrews never received. Is God's eternal salvation (all Christians possess it) SEAL of eternal life

Vine's dictionary has 15 verifiable Greek to English translators. Experts in Greek nouns & their grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, neuter & how their used in a number, singular, dual, or plural. And all respects of Greek from verbs to mood, voice, aspect, tense, number, and person.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: definition - English "SEAL" = Greek "sphragis" context as a Noun - Strongs ref #4973

(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

English "seal" = Greek "sphragizo" context as a verb - Strongs ref #4972
(d) ownership and security, three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13 , in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (see also Ephesians 1:14 ); so Ephesians 4:30 , "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;"
Seal (Noun and Verb) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

MY NOTE: Vine's Greek to English translation experts define SEAL & cited verses Eph 1:13, 14, 4:30: The SEAL of the living God. Denoting His ownership, SECURING the BELIEVER from destruction & marking them for reward!

QUOTING VINES: Not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith. Jesus sin payment bought, paid for & eternally secures the believers eternal life DONE DEAL/FINISHED TRANSACTION!)

Vines calls God's eternal SEAL/Holy Spirit a GIFT. Scripture also proclaims the Holy Spirit is a GIFT received thru FAITH (Rom 6:23, Jn 5:24)

Vine's translators proclaim salvation is FOREVER/eternal life.

Final thought:
Finally: Under the new covenant the only unforgivable sin is, REJECTING CHRIST = UNBELIEF!

Justification by Faith

Slave to Christ

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

Slave to Christ

Great is thy faithfulness

Slave to Christ

Great is thy faithfulness

Slave to Christ

Great is thy faithfulness

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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