For those who argue for the omnibenevolence of God…

Minister Monardo · Aug 11, 2023

Hammster said:
You can’t just try to explain away the wrath of God on the evil nations.

This is the point I have been trying to make but has been ignored;,
you cannot equate the wrath of God with hatred.
This is a function of His holiness.
Here is what the scriptures teach:
Genesis 15:
13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs,
and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.
14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.
15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.

Just as God wiped man from the earth to preserve it from being further defiled by their iniquity,
the same was true for the land of promise.

Leviticus 18:
24 Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled,
which I am casting out before you.
25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants.
26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations,
either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you
27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled),
28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

The point being that if God had not released wrath upon the people of the land,
the land itself would have destroyed them.

And so it will be when He releases His wrath upon the earth at the end of time. Is there any doubt that if the Lord does not make a short work upon the earth and judge the wickedness of mankind, that creation itself would? But for the elect sake,
He takes matters into His own hands.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

If this does not bring some clarity to the matter, I am not sure what more can be said.
The defense rests. The judgment and vengeance of God is Just.

biblelesson · Aug 11, 2023

bbbbbbb said:
Thank you for your prayers and kind advice. You do make a very good observation from Hebrews. God's benevolence in the form of discipline is only for His children and not for those who are not His children. Therefore, it is evident that God is not omnibenevolent.

I had to get a good definition of Omnibenevolent: perfectly just, all-loving, fully merciful.

So in relation to what you said, I want to say God is omnibenevolent. For a long time, I didn’t really understand the gospel, and I know now I had the wrong teachers. When I allowed the Holy Spirit to only teach me, my understanding opened up.

The reason why some are disciplined and some are not has to do with God’s forknowledge - of all those who would become His Children before they are born.

Romans 8:29 KJV, "For whom he did forknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Ephesians 1:4-6 KJV,
4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” 5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” 6 “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”

Jesus, being the first born, is the catalyst to our resurrection, where we become sons and daughters of God, so when a believer is born (based on God’s forknowledge of them), God predestinates them to be conformed to the image of His Son, He then calls them, justifies them, then sanctify them, Romans 8:30 KJV. This is all based on His forknowledge of those who will believe.

Based on the promise God made to Abraham, and to assure that promise, He established predestination to where election would "stand" (be in force for us today under the new testament) by way of Abraham’s seed, his two grandsons, Jacob and Esau, Romans 9:11 KJV. God forknew the type of people Esau and Jacob would be, so, to establish God's purpose according to "election" that it might "stand", as God's love was toward Jacob and not Esau, Romans 9:11-13 KJV, therefore God set the election up through Rebecca, letting her know before the children were born (not having done good or evil to remove works that it might be by grace) that it was His determination that the older shall serve the younger, and that Jacob was to received the blessing and not Esau. So at the time Isaac was to bless Esau, Rebecca remembered what God said to her and instructed Jacob what to do, Genesis 27:5-17 KJV. The promise seed (Jesus) was to come by way of Abraham’s seed, and God forknew that although Esau was the oldest and was to receive the blessing from his father Issac, Esau would be an evil nation. Therefore God chose Abraham’s younger grandson Jacob, who God forknew would be a righteous man, for Jesus to come through his lineage. From Jacob came the twelve tribes of Israel.

All that God forknew would believe He predestinates. He already know those who will be stubborn against His Son, so He does not force them. He gives grace to those who will, James 4:6 KJV.

For example, those atheist that just refuse to believe, He does no call because He already know they won’t believe.

God does not want this. He wants to work in all our lives. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV, 3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;” 4 “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV, 5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” 6 “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

God bless you!

Hammster · Aug 11, 2023

bling said:
Everything God does or allows to happen is "good" in that it helps willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
If there was no physical death here on earth, how would that "help" some humans to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity (forgiveness)? Adam and Eve lived without death, but did it help them to not sin?

What you are saying is that it was good that they were disobedient.

Hammster · Aug 11, 2023

Mr. M said:
This is the point I have been trying to make but has been ignored;,
you cannot equate the wrath of God with hatred.
This is a function of His holiness.
Here is what the scriptures teach:
Genesis 15:
13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs,
and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.
14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.
15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.

Just as God wiped man from the earth to preserve it from being further defiled by their iniquity,
the same was true for the land of promise.

Leviticus 18:
24 Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled,
which I am casting out before you.
25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants.
26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations,
either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you
27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled),
28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

The point being that if God had not released wrath upon the people of the land,
the land itself would have destroyed them.

And so it will be when He releases His wrath upon the earth at the end of time. Is there any doubt that if the Lord does not make a short work upon the earth and judge the wickedness of mankind, that creation itself would? But for the elect sake,
He takes matters into His own hands.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

If this does not bring some clarity to the matter, I am not sure what more can be said.
The defense rests. The judgment and vengeance of God is Just.

Let me see if I can be clearer, as I admit that I may not have been. My argument has been that God does not have omnibenevolence. Usually when this is brought up, someone will quote something like 1 Timothy 2:4 as proof that I’m wrong. However, this ignores the fact that God does demonstrate wrath, and wrath and omnibenevolence are mutually exclusive. You cannot say that God demonstrated His love on the people He destroyed in the flood.

Minister Monardo · Aug 11, 2023

Hammster said:
What you are saying is that it was good that they were disobedient.

What the scriptures are saying is that it is good to accept correction/discipline.
Psalm 119:
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray,
But now I keep Your word.
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
Seeing all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, it is but idle speculation
to opine on the nature of Adam and Eve. It is as if I were to say that if God had
chosen Italians like me instead of Hebrews, everything would have turned out different.
How are we to understand Paul's statement, if it is not to accept chastisement?
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

Hammster said:
Let me see if I can be clearer, as I admit that I may not have been. My argument has been that God does not have omnibenevolence. Usually when this is brought up, someone will quote something like 1 Timothy 2:4 as proof that I’m wrong. However, this ignores the fact that God does demonstrate wrath, and wrath and omnibenevolence are mutually exclusive. You cannot say that God demonstrated His love on the people He destroyed in the flood.

Sure, and at no time have I belabored the issue, and made it clear that I am well aware of the scriptures that convey that there is hatred from God for the wicked, and violent oppressors. The wrath of God is not synonymous with hatred though. You cannot discount the need to comprehend His holiness. Was there hatred toward Uzzah, who was transporting the Ark under David's instructions, and simply reached out his hand to steady it when jostled by the cart? I brought up Aaron's sons because they did not have wicked intentions when they tried to draw near to the Lord with incense. Understanding holiness and the complex nature of wrath that comes forth from God's presence without sanctification is instructive of the awesome privilege to "come boldly before Him, by the blood of the Lamb".
Peace

bling · Aug 11, 2023

Hammster said:
What you are saying is that it was good that they were disobedient.

No, God's actions are always "good" and helpful for the willing individual, but that does not mean Adam and Eve's actions were "good". Adam and Eve failed which was totally to be expected, but after leaving the Garden with the knowledge they gained from the Garden about God, sin, Love, human weakness, satan and death they were now in a very harsh situation, but best for their fulfilling their earthly objective.

Hammster · Aug 11, 2023

Mr. M said:
What the scriptures are saying is that it is good to accept correction/discipline.

I know. But that’s not his point.

Hammster · Aug 11, 2023

Mr. M said:
Sure, and at no time have I belabored the issue, and made it clear that I am well aware of the scriptures that convey that there is hatred from God for the wicked, and violent oppressors. The wrath of God is not synonymous with hatred though. You cannot discount the need to comprehend His holiness. Was there hatred toward Uzzah, who was transporting the Ark under David's instructions, and simply reached out his hand to steady it when jostled by the cart? I brought up Aaron's sons because they did not have wicked intentions when they tried to draw near to the Lord with incense. Understanding holiness and the complex nature of wrath that comes forth from God's presence without sanctification is instructive of the awesome privilege to "come boldly before Him, by the blood of the Lamb".
Peace

Then you agree that God isn’t omnibenevolent.

Hammster · Aug 11, 2023

bling said:
No, God's actions are always "good" and helpful for the willing individual, but that does not mean Adam and Eve's actions were "good". Adam and Eve failed which was totally to be expected, but after leaving the Garden with the knowledge they gained from the Garden about God, sin, Love, human weakness, satan and death they were now in a very harsh situation, but best for their fulfilling their earthly objective.

Alright. So God had a plan for Adam and Eve to sin. :oldthumbsup:

Minister Monardo · Aug 11, 2023

Hammster said:
I know. But that’s not his point.

It should have been!

Hammster · Aug 11, 2023

John Mullally · Aug 12, 2023

Hammster said:
View attachment 334443

Gospel means good news and the Good News is that God promises to forgive sins of those who believe the Gospel message and repent (Acts 2). Avoid getting wrapped around the axle by speculating if God is a micro-manager controlling our every thought and wanted you specifically or a loved one to reject. Acts 17:30 states that God commands everyone tp repent. - so He wants everyone to repent. - just like He wants everyone to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

Hammster · Aug 12, 2023

John Mullally said:
Gospel means good news and the Good News is that God promises to forgive sins of those who believe the Gospel message and repent (Acts 2). Avoid getting wrapped around the axle by speculating if God is a micro-manager controlling our every thought and wanted you specifically or a loved one to reject. Acts 17:30 states that God commands everyone tp repent. - so He wants everyone to repent. - just like He wants everyone to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

Where’s the gospel to the Hittites?

bling · Aug 12, 2023

Hammster said:
Alright. So God had a plan for Adam and Eve to sin.

Yes, God knew Adam and Eve would sin and planed around it, but that does not mean God was happy with them sinning or caused them to sin. Adam and Eve were not going to fulfill their earthly objective in the Garden situation, but they along with all of us needed to learn the Garden situation is lousy for fulfilling our objective. Most people today think they would prefer to be in a Garden situation, but do not realize they would have fair no better than Adam and Eve and would not have fulfilled their earthly objective.

bling · Aug 12, 2023

Hammster said:
Where’s the gospel to the Hittites?

The OT is following the path to Jesus which the Hittites have a very small part in, so we do not know about the Hittites decedents.

Hammster · Aug 12, 2023

bling said:
The OT is following the path to Jesus which the Hittites have a very small part in, so we do not know about the Hittites decedents.

We know about what happened to them. That doesn’t seem to fit with your view of God, however.

bling · Aug 12, 2023

Hammster said:
We know about what happened to them. That doesn’t seem to fit with your view of God, however.

We know the final result for the nation, but nothing of the details like we have for the Jews.

Hammster · Aug 12, 2023

bling said:
We know the final result for the nation, but nothing of the details like we have for the Jews.

We know they were wiped out. That’s not benevolence.

bling · Aug 12, 2023

Hammster said:
We know about what happened to them. That doesn’t seem to fit with your view of God, however.

My view is we all die some way at some time, unless Christ comes first.

bling · Aug 12, 2023

Hammster said:
We know they were wiped out. That’s not benevolence.

Do we know if all the mature adults were provided with the opportunity to accept or reject God's Love in the form of forgiveness? Did a Jonah like prophet go to them prior to their destruction?
Did the innocent go on to heaven?

For those who argue for the omnibenevolence of God…

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