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Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved
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No God does not expect that. He expects us to forgive those who do repent.
Read the OT laws regarding sacrifice for sin.
Read about Gods dealings with Israel and his punishment and restoration of israel.
In every case thers is only forgivenes/restoration when there is repentance.
Look at Jesus on the cross. He did not forgive those who crucified him. He prayed ' Father forgive them' not I forgive them.
Christians are to be ready and willing to forgive, but there is not and never has been a blanket forgiveness, it is always preceeded by repentance.
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That's not the way it works.
Matthew 6:14-15 NIV
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
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Sorry to disapoint you but that is how God works, he forgives only on repentance.
Those verse presume that there is repentance and then as luke 17:3 says we must forgive.
T
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Reread John3:16-18.
Anyone who does not believe in Jesus is not waiting to be condemned, but is already condemned.
That stands untill they repent and accept him.
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Lovely hymn but faulty theology.FineLinen said:
There is NOT even one single vs. in which, God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself says that anyone will be saved after death. NO! Zero! None!
But Jesus does say Not everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And Jesus does say "on judgement day" that "MANY," not a few will call Him "Lord, Lord." and brag about all the wonderful things they claim they have done in Jesus' name." But Jesus will say to them "I NEVER knew you workers of iniquity, depart from me." When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not someday by and by.(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Still trying to make the Bible say what it does not say by quoting selective verses out-of-context.FineLinen said:
Please see my post #147 above. Matthew 7:21-23
Link: Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved
Please note: Jesus did NOT say "Everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus said, "Not everyone ...shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;" Then Jesus will say "MANY, not a few, will brag to Him about all the "wonderful works" they claim they have done but Jesus will say to them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not someday by and by.
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Yes, Jesus differentiates between Hades and Gehenna, but sadly the KJV translators didn't see fit to preserve this distinction.
Hades is perhaps more akin to our concept of hell (as developed from it's Hellenic origins), and Luke 16 adds a bit of colour there.
Accepting for argument's sake that Richie is in fact tormented in a hell of fire with an unbreachable chasm separating him from Abraham's bosom, the question is: When (if ever) will the agony end (there there, Richie)?
The answer is revealed in the 'jailbreak' of Revelation 20:13. Richie is released...to the Great White Throne Judgment, and (knowing that guy's obstinacy) thence to the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) for a good renewal scrub treatment. New man in Christ emerges transformed by Grace, and bingo, St Humble's name is on the Pearly Gates door list.
Hades is perhaps more akin to our concept of hell (as developed from it's Hellenic origins), and Luke 16 adds a bit of colour there.
Accepting for argument's sake that Richie is in fact tormented in a hell of fire with an unbreachable chasm separating him from Abraham's bosom, the question is: When (if ever) will the agony end (there there, Richie)?
The answer is revealed in the 'jailbreak' of Revelation 20:13. Richie is released...to the Great White Throne Judgment, and (knowing that guy's obstinacy) thence to the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) for a good renewal scrub treatment. New man in Christ emerges transformed by Grace, and bingo, St Humble's name is on the Pearly Gates door list.
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Your statement "Yes, Jesus differentiates between Hades and Gehenna, but sadly the KJV translators didn't see fit to preserve this distinction." Ain't necessarily so.
My ¢¢, Below are quotes from three Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, disputed.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim, as many do, that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from or influenced by Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים /Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
Islam began about 620AD, Islam also had a fiery place of punishment which they called Gahannam about 10 centuries before Dante.
As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.”
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.
[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, centuries before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DAThe place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
…..This refutes the patently false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning. It never happened!
”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. Xxxii, 11]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. Xxxii, 11]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [αδη/hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
...
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:22-24, 26
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [αδη/hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
...
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:22-24, 26
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that
they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous.they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
Jesus opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc?
If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17). Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16
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Thank you for that epistle Der Alte, which I note departs from scriptural testament on a flight of fancy through a very uninspired agglomeration of Jewish literature, which is to the Bible as Mills & Boon is to Shakespeare.
That may be so, but it is not what I am claiming.
They're so derivative, it's well time they just dropped the foolishness and came to Christ. I suppose they still like the in-tent-city of the Koran, breathing out dark threats against infidels yada yada. Do they have anything they didn't steal from somewhere else?
And this is why Jesus hated their trash-talking ways, weaponising scripture for their own political and economic gain. To this day the religious hypocrites use the threat of eternal hell to generate their income and control the masses through spiritual terrorism.
But scripture clearly teaches that Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire. Can hell be cast out by the power of hell? A house divided against itself cannot stand.
The red text is a claim that is remarkably absent from the Tanakh. Where is the creation account of hell in the OT? And where is evidence of the predicted curvature of the earth? But I digress.
Granted, Jesus taught that there was a Gehenna of fire in which God could destroy both body and soul, and best avoided by all available means.
The essential difference was that Jesus restored hope to those bound for Gehenna, he opened the door with such teachings as the "uttermost farthing", and "more valuable than a pair of sacrificial sparrows." But even more, it is the "See the son, see the father" principle, which is mercy trumps judgment, victory through grace and so on. These are at the very heart of Christianity. There's no point at which God turns nasty and dispenses of His desire to save the critter.
Gehenna, as rendered by Jesus, is God's school of hard knocks for the hardened sinner.
But I think we can trust God to not recompense in a way that would make even Lamech blush. What mortal sin could merit eternal torment? The scales of justice der Alte, and the scales that fall from the eyes.
What significance do you attribute to the fact that the 'sheep and goats' passage in Matthew (a) is not corroborated by the witness of the other gospels, and (b) appears in Matthew's gospel, primarily for Jewish consumption?
Such an important passage for unbelievers (assuming it says what you and Justin Martyr assert), yet the HS chose to remain silent in Luke's gospel.
That is one reason why we have Matthew 23. The hypocritical elitist and self-serving base interpretations used to oppress the poor. The truth shall set us free!
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Yes the truth will set you free. Too bad you don't have any of it.
Your unsupported biased opinion on any of this is meaningless to me.
Let me know if you ever have anything worthwhile to say.
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And I was hoping to elicit a "Total bloviation!" epithet. Still, gives me something to strive towards.
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Now that you mention it your post was a lot of irrelevant bloviation which did not really address my points.
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Thank you, I feel I've attained to that exacting Der Alte standard.
Still, that's some serious selective dyslexia you appear to be suffering. I addressed your points by rejecting your overweening attempts to Judaise. Jesus rejected the rabbinical tradition in no uncertain terms, and here you are blithely promulgating the views of his murderers.
In scripture, Hades and Gehenna are plainly not interchangeable, they are distinct and separate places, states, concepts, events and/or things, both literally and symbolically. You might not like it, but is that any reason to impose antichrist hermeneutics?
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