Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved

[Ceallaigh]

Boys and girls can we say "Copout?" It is not an entire article which is approximately 4 typed pages.

You yourself called it an article.

Der Alte said: ↑
Rubbish. Jewish Encyclopedia article- Gehenna posted multiple times.

 

[Der Alte]

You yourself called it an article.
Der Alte said: ↑
Rubbish. Jewish Encyclopedia article- Gehenna posted multiple times.

I quoted about 2 paragraphs from a 4 page article. Approx 1 paragraph from Encyclopedia Judaica, and approx. 1 paragraph from the Talmud. And you can't comprehend you are not disputing me you are trying to dispute standard references which are more than 100 years old as if you opinion actually meant something.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It's pretty funny asking if anyone has seen something that's been reposted countless times.

Dante has been extensively used in descriptions and depictions of hell, by both Christians and secularists. Which has nothing to do with Jewish beliefs.

In all the stuff posted from the Jewish encyclopedias, only a single line each from two works of dubious apocrypha say anything about an eternal hell. And anyone who's done a modicum of research knows that the Jewish belief in hell is that its a cleansing process that only lasts a year.

Ah yes thanks, despite the myriad rehearsals of this argument, I'd forgotten about the Jewish time limits, which of course prove they consider Gehenna to be a hospital...presumably even for Jesus, whom they graciously feature as boiling in excrement in the Talmud.

Still, don't they teach that Gehenna is exclusively for Jews, Idk if they have any view on what happens to dead dogs?

 

[Der Alte]

Ah yes thanks, despite the myriad rehearsals of this argument, I'd forgotten about the Jewish time limits, which of course prove they consider Gehenna to be a hospital...presumably even for Jesus, whom they graciously feature as boiling in excrement in the Talmud.
Still, don't they teach that Gehenna is exclusively for Jews, Idk if they have any view on what happens to dead dogs?

You are correct the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna also includes gentiles going to Gehenna.
That some sinners only spend 12 months in Gehenna is only one of the views. Here is the only mention of sinners in hell coming up.

"All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b)." ​

Jewish Encyclopedia Online

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You are correct the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna also includes gentiles going to Gehenna.
That some sinners only spend 12 months in Gehenna is only one of the views. Here is the only mention of sinners in hell coming up.

"All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b)." ​

Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Ah, so according to them Gehenna is some sort of corrective detention. Only a few types will be ineligible for release.

And there are many other (broader) categories of sinners thrown in the LoF in Rev 21:8, correct? So why then should at least some of these not be released, if (for argument's sake) we're accepting that Jewish tradition may fill in some lacunae in scripture?

 

[Der Alte]

Ah, so according to them Gehenna is some sort of corrective detention. Only a few types will be ineligible for release.
And there are many other (broader) categories of sinners thrown in the LoF in Rev 21:8, correct? So why then should at least some of these not be released, if (for argument's sake) we're accepting that Jewish tradition may fill in some lacunae in scripture?

Release from hell is only one of the views.

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9)​

JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Release from hell is only one of the views.

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9)​

JewishEncyclopedia.com

Right, but it is accepted within Judaism as 'a' legitimate view, is it not?

Yet many refuse to accept the possibility of release from Gehenna as having any legitimacy in Christian eschatology.

Why do you think that is, der Alte?

 

[Der Alte]

Right, but it is accepted within Judaism as 'a' legitimate view, is it not?
Yet many refuse to accept the possibility of release from Gehenna as having any legitimacy in Christian eschatology.
Why do you think that is, der Alte?

Because the release from Gehenna was only for Jews. And it was by far a minority view. Check the 4 page Jewish Encyclopedia article I linked to.

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).​

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Because the release from Gehenna was only for Jews. And it was by far a minority view. Check the 4 page Jewish Encyclopedia article I linked to.

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).​

So the theology of hatred and misanthropy is ascendant in Judaism. Quelle surprise. Surely not in Christianity though, I mean aren't we about grace, mercy and forgiveness lol.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I quoted about 2 paragraphs from a 4 page article. Approx 1 paragraph from Encyclopedia Judaica, and approx. 1 paragraph from the Talmud. And you can't comprehend you are not disputing me you are trying to dispute standard references which are more than 100 years old as if you opinion actually meant something.

Rubbish. Your opinion is meaningless.

 

[Der Alte]

Rubbish. Your opinion is meaningless.

This one cracked me up. Not my opinion. As I said, "You can't comprehend you are not disputing me you are trying to dispute standard references which are more than 100 years old as if you opinion actually meant something.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You are correct the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna also includes gentiles going to Gehenna.
That some sinners only spend 12 months in Gehenna is only one of the views. Here is the only mention of sinners in hell coming up.
"All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b)." Jewish Encyclopedia Online

"B.M." stands for Bava Metzia. Which is the second of the first three Talmudic tractates in the order of Nezikin ("Damages"), the other two being Bava Kamma and Bava Batra.

When it comes to a Jewish encyclopedia, one needs to be familiar with the references it supplies. That's why I referred to a Rabbi who's studied all of the Jewish writings and knows the entire scope of Jewish theology.

Now we know the canon of Jewish scriptures, what we call the Old Testament, virtually says nothing about an everlasting place of torment. The only passages that might be construed as such are Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 66:24.

So the Jews of the 1st century would not really know of such a place from scripture. As far as Jewish writings outside of scripture saying anything about such a place, there is the Jewish First Book of Enoch, part of which is quoted in Jude 1:14-15. But even though Jude quotes it, there's still a lot of controversy regarding this book as to who all authored it and how much it might have been tinkered with and had additional material added to it.

Also Jude quoting from the First Book of Enoch, doesn't necessarily mean he considered it to be a work inspired by God, just as when Paul quoted from Aratus in Acts 17:28, Menander in 1 Cor. 15:33 and Epimenides in Titus 1:12, that doesn't mean Paul thought those writings were inspired by God or that he supported them.

Then there's the Book of Judith. Judith 16:17 to be precise. In Judaism, although the author was likely Jewish, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group

(Senior, Donald & Collins, John J., The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible, Oxford University Press, 2011, p. 222, [1]. Deborah Levine Gera (2010). Kevin R. Brine; et al. (eds.). The Sword of Judith: Judith Studies Across the Disciplines. Open Book Publishers. pp. 29–36. ISBN 978-1906924157.)

 

[Ceallaigh]

This one cracked me up. Not my opinion. As I said, "You can't comprehend you are not disputing me you are trying to dispute standard references which are more than 100 years old as if you opinion actually meant something.

Such a copout.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Because the release from Gehenna was only for Jews. And it was by far a minority view. Check the 4 page Jewish Encyclopedia article I linked to.
When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

Irrelevant. Was written at least 350 years after Jesus taught.

The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.).

Irrelevant. Pseudepigrapha (falsely attributed work). 1 Enoch was excluded from both the formal canon of the Tanakh and the typical canon of the Septuagint and therefore, also from the writings known today as the Deuterocanon.
(Emanuel Tov and Craig Evans, Exploring the Origins of the Bible: Canon Formation in Historical, Literary, and Theological Perspective Archived 2016-06-15 at the Wayback Machine, Acadia 2008. Philip R. Davies, Scribes and Schools: The Canonization of the Hebrew Scriptures London: SPCK, 1998)

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)

Irrelevant. Deuterocanonical apocrypha. There is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group.
(Senior, Donald & Collins, John J., The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible, Oxford University Press, 2011, p. 222, [1]. Deborah Levine Gera (2010). Kevin R. Brine; et al. (eds.). The Sword of Judith: Judith Studies Across the Disciplines. Open Book Publishers. pp. 29–36. ISBN 978-1906924157.)

 

[DamianWarS]

There are definitely many references to hell before Christ's death (as in people who were currently in hell...the Rich Man from Luke 16...but also righteous men like Abraham, David, Samuel, King Saul, Saul's son etc (they are all referenced as descending down to Hades after death.... It seems that almost everyone went to hell under the Old Covenant). But it seems to me that all of that changed with Christ's death and the Harrowing of Hell.

hades and Sheol are not the same place. in biblical context, Sheol is a place of ignorance that all must pass through. it is often used abstractly for states of being like depression/sorrow/lamentation or as a synonym for death/the grave but as a place, it is more a doorway that no one knew what was behind.

In contrast, not all go to hades and we may be saved from it. This is how the bible reveals these terms and we need to be careful not to contrast the greek understanding of hades with Sheol which view these places more synonymously. KJV indeed just uses the word "hell" to often translate the words which makes it unclear what exactly is going on. Like with pretty much everything, the NT reveals things that OT does not and in the same way, Sheol is simply a term used for the state of the afterlife that is clouded in mystery. it's less of a place and more of an unknown. With the NT some of those things are revealed and we know there is a place reserved for judgment and a place reserved for reward but it's still not all the clear. This is because the bible is not a book for the afterlife, it is a book of this life here and now.

The NT adopts terms from trending mythology. Hades is one, but also Gehenna and Tartarus are terms pulled from mythology when trying to express their points. Just because Gehenna is in Hebrew doesn't make it special. The Hebrews had mythology, remember Sheol is a place of ignorance, and in that void will birth all sorts of adoptions of what could be, this is there Gehenna comes from. Christ uses it to stress a point not a doctrinal position of layers of the afterlife. We need to be careful not to run with these mythologies to define what the afterlife is or is not otherwise we might as well pick up Dante's Inferno and use that as our guide book which pretty much is what western Christianity has done. Dante's Inferno is a mythology that is not biblically supported. Our definitions need to be firmly rooted in what is revealed in the bible. questions outside of biblical context shouldn't mean we run to the mythologies to fill in the blanks (like Dante's Inferno or the book of Enoch), they simply remain as unknowns and we should leave them that way.

 

[Der Alte]

Irrelevant. Was written at least 350 years after Jesus taught.
Irrelevant. Pseudepigrapha (falsely attributed work). 1 Enoch was excluded from both the formal canon of the Tanakh and the typical canon of the Septuagint and therefore, also from the writings known today as the Deuterocanon.
(Emanuel Tov and Craig Evans, Exploring the Origins of the Bible: Canon Formation in Historical, Literary, and Theological Perspective Archived 2016-06-15 at the Wayback Machine, Acadia 2008. Philip R. Davies, Scribes and Schools: The Canonization of the Hebrew Scriptures London: SPCK, 1998)
Irrelevant. Deuterocanonical apocrypha. There is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group.
(Senior, Donald & Collins, John J., The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible, Oxford University Press, 2011, p. 222, [1]. Deborah Levine Gera (2010). Kevin R. Brine; et al. (eds.). The Sword of Judith: Judith Studies Across the Disciplines. Open Book Publishers. pp. 29–36. ISBN 978-1906924157.)

Your biased, unsupported opinion is irrelevant. You are not disputing me, you are trying to dispute Jewish history as recorded in Jewish sources. If you think you have to pursue this, run over there to the Jewish Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Judaica websites and convince the Jews who maintain those sites that you know more than they do about Jewish history. Their beliefs were based on the sources they listed, once again your biased unsupported opinion means diddly squat.

 

[Der Alte]

"B.M." stands for Bava Metzia. Which is the second of the first three Talmudic tractates in the order of Nezikin ("Damages"), the other two being Bava Kamma and Bava Batra.
When it comes to a Jewish encyclopedia, one needs to be familiar with the references it supplies. That's why I referred to a Rabbi who's studied all of the Jewish writings and knows the entire scope of Jewish theology.
Now we know the canon of Jewish scriptures, what we call the Old Testament, virtually says nothing about an everlasting place of torment. The only passages that might be construed as such are Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 66:24.
So the Jews of the 1st century would not really know of such a place from scripture. As far as Jewish writings outside of scripture saying anything about such a place, there is the Jewish First Book of Enoch, part of which is quoted in Jude 1:14-15. But even though Jude quotes it, there's still a lot of controversy regarding this book as to who all authored it and how much it might have been tinkered with and had additional material added to it.
Also Jude quoting from the First Book of Enoch, doesn't necessarily mean he considered it to be a work inspired by God, just as when Paul quoted from Aratus in Acts 17:28, Menander in 1 Cor. 15:33 and Epimenides in Titus 1:12, that doesn't mean Paul thought those writings were inspired by God or that he supported them.
Then there's the Book of Judith. Judith 16:17 to be precise. In Judaism, although the author was likely Jewish, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group
(Senior, Donald & Collins, John J., The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible, Oxford University Press, 2011, p. 222, [1]. Deborah Levine Gera (2010). Kevin R. Brine; et al. (eds.). The Sword of Judith: Judith Studies Across the Disciplines. Open Book Publishers. pp. 29–36. ISBN 978-1906924157.)

More of same ol' same ol' meaningless, unsupported rubbish.
The book of Judith was included in the 225 BC Septuagint.
There is NOTHING you or any other misguided person can say which will contradict anything in the Jewish Encyclopedia Gehenna article or the brief quotes I posted. Here is a link to the LXX online. Read it and weep.
Home - The Septuagint: LXX
Whatever the scholars who compiled the Jewish Encyclopedia quoted in the Gehenna article they considered credible enough. Your opinion and any "experts" you care to quote mean less than diddly squat.

 

[Ceallaigh]

More of same ol' same ol' meaningless, unsupported rubbish.
The book of Judith was included in the 225 BC Septuagint.
There is NOTHING you or any other misguided person can say which will contradict anything in the Jewish Encyclopedia Gehenna article or the brief quotes I posted. Here is a link to the LXX online. Read it and weep.
Home - The Septuagint: LXX
Whatever the scholars who compiled the Jewish Encyclopedia quoted in the Gehenna article they considered credible enough. Your opinion and any "experts" you care to quote mean less than diddly squat.

You don't seem to understand how encyclopedias work. The link you provided is just a cover page. Although I note it says © Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. I'll be happy to see what the Greek Orthodox church says about the book of Judith and add it to my list of references.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Your biased, unsupported opinion is irrelevant. You are not disputing me, you are trying to dispute Jewish history as recorded in Jewish sources. If you think you have to pursue this, run over there to the Jewish Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Judaica websites and convince the Jews who maintain those sites that you know more than they do about Jewish history. Their beliefs were based on the sources they listed, once again your biased unsupported opinion means diddly squat.

Such sour grapes. Perhaps you'll have better luck with the Book of Abraham .

 

[Der Alte]

You don't seem to understand how encyclopedias work. The link you provided is just a cover page. Although I note it says © Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. I'll be happy to see what the Greek Orthodox church says about the book of Judith and add it to my list of references.

Before one presumes to lecture another on how something works one should first know what it is they are talking about.
Click the link again at the upper left you will see the word "text" click that and the books of the LXX will list, including Judith. I could have linked directly to the book of Judith but that would not have shown it was part of the LXX.