Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved

[white gardenia]

I believe in a literal interpretation of the King James Bible, but studying it as literal truth has ironically gotten me to the point where I tend to agree with Universalism (that the most likely outcome for our universe is that God gets His way and everyone is brought to Salvation). I think one of the keys is the Harrowing of Hell.
There are definitely many references to hell before Christ's death (as in people who were currently in hell...the Rich Man from Luke 16...but also righteous men like Abraham, David, Samuel, King Saul, Saul's son etc (they are all referenced as descending down to Hades after death.... It seems that almost everyone went to hell under the Old Covenant). But it seems to me that all of that changed with Christ's death and the Harrowing of Hell.
As far as many of the the verses which include Christ's warnings about "Gehenna" in Matthew were warnings on a societal level. Passages like Matthew 25 seem to be referencing the impending doom of Jerusalem.....and what some might call "supersession" ...the idea that the Jewish people would no longer be the only race/ tribe that could be redeemed, and that a New Covenant had been established in the context of Christ's death. Indeed, many of Christ's warnings in Matthew seem to refer to an old Guard being "thrown out into the darkness" in favor of a new Guard (presumably comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who had accepted Christ). Christ also warned that this separation of the "sheep and the goats" would herald the "end of the age" but also predicated these warnings with time signifiers such as "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". It's interesting that Christ uses "Hades" in the story of Lazarus and The Rich Man but uses "Gehenna" when talking about the Sheep and the Goats. But what really convinces me that Christ's warnings in the Olivet Discourse are not about Hell (the same Hell that is referenced in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man) is that this entire sequence (including the warnings about the Sheep and the Goats and the references to kolasis and eternal destruction) is predicated with that time signifier- "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". Why would general warnings about Hell be pinned to any one time frame or generation? And of course much of what Christ predicted in the Olivet Discourse (or the "Little Apocalypse") did come true. Many theologians claim that he was accurately predicting both the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD and the transition to the Christian (New Covenant) era of human history.
Now back to Hades....Christ uses the word Hades to tell the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. But what happened to Hades upon Christ's death? Ephesians 4:9 says "..He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth..." 1st Peter 4:6 says "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."...and then 1st Peter 3:18 says “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah....”. And there are other passages of course...but the main point is that Christ descended to free the dead spirits (presumably including the Rich Man and Lazarus).
One of the most significant aspects of this Biblical timeline is that there is no mention of anyone being in Hades after Christ's death (The Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation is in the context of a future event that I will discuss in a moment). At no point in the New Testament AD (after Christ's death) is there any mention of anyone being in Hell (at least no mention that I have been able to find...feel free to correct me if I am wrong). To the contrary, it reiterates the freeing of those in Hell. As Acts 2:31 notes- "David, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ that ‘His soul was not left in hell, neither did His flesh see corruption." (notably this verse reverts back to the root word of Hades...after the root word of Gehenna had become commonplace in the New Testament). The only reference to a possible Hell that I can find in the New Testament after Christ's Death is in 2 Peter 2:4 where it refers to angels being currently bound in Hell awaiting judgement- "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" Interestingly, Hell here has the root word of "Tartarus" (Is that the only use of "Tartarus" in the Bible? I havent been able to find it anywhere else)..

The references to a future Hell in Revelation are (I suspect) something totally different. These references use "Lake of Fire" instead of the other root words (although "Hades" is brought back in a separate context as an anthropomorphized presence which rides alongside Death before being engulfed by the Lake of Fire). I believe that the references to Hell and the Lake of Fire in Revelation are also on a societal level (similar to the references in the Olivet Discourse but on a much more apocalyptic scale)....but thats a bit more complicated and involved topic...Ill only open that can of worms if people are interested..

 

[Der Alte]

I believe in a literal interpretation of the King James Bible, but studying it as literal truth has ironically gotten me to the point where I tend to agree with Universalism (that the most likely outcome for our universe is that God gets His way and everyone is brought to Salvation). I think one of the keys is the Harrowing of Hell.
There are definitely many references to hell before Christ's death (as in people who were currently in hell...the Rich Man from Luke 16...but also righteous men like Abraham, David, Samuel, King Saul, Saul's son etc (they are all referenced as descending down to Hades after death.... It seems that almost everyone went to hell under the Old Covenant). But it seems to me that all of that changed with Christ's death and the Harrowing of Hell.
As far as many of the the verses which include Christ's warnings about "Gehenna" in Matthew were warnings on a societal level. Passages like Matthew 25 seem to be referencing the impending doom of Jerusalem.....and what some might call "supersession" ...the idea that the Jewish people would no longer be the only race/ tribe that could be redeemed, and that a New Covenant had been established in the context of Christ's death. Indeed, many of Christ's warnings in Matthew seem to refer to an old Guard being "thrown out into the darkness" in favor of a new Guard (presumably comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who had accepted Christ). Christ also warned that this separation of the "sheep and the goats" would herald the "end of the age" but also predicated these warnings with time signifiers such as "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". It's interesting that Christ uses "Hades" in the story of Lazarus and The Rich Man but uses "Gehenna" when talking about the Sheep and the Goats. But what really convinces me that Christ's warnings in the Olivet Discourse are not about Hell (the same Hell that is referenced in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man) is that this entire sequence (including the warnings about the Sheep and the Goats and the references to kolasis and eternal destruction) is predicated with that time signifier- "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". Why would general warnings about Hell be pinned to any one time frame or generation? And of course much of what Christ predicted in the Olivet Discourse (or the "Little Apocalypse") did come true. Many theologians claim that he was accurately predicting both the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD and the transition to the Christian (New Covenant) era of human history.
Now back to Hades....Christ uses the word Hades to tell the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. But what happened to Hades upon Christ's death? Ephesians 4:9 says "..He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth..." 1st Peter 4:6 says "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."...and then 1st Peter 3:18 says “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah....”. And there are other passages of course...but the main point is that Christ descended to free the dead spirits (presumably including the Rich Man and Lazarus).
One of the most significant aspects of this Biblical timeline is that there is no mention of anyone being in Hades after Christ's death (The Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation is in the context of a future event that I will discuss in a moment). At no point in the New Testament AD (after Christ's death) is there any mention of anyone being in Hell (at least no mention that I have been able to find...feel free to correct me if I am wrong). To the contrary, it reiterates the freeing of those in Hell. As Acts 2:31 notes- "David, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ that ‘His soul was not left in hell, neither did His flesh see corruption." (notably this verse reverts back to the root word of Hades...after the root word of Gehenna had become commonplace in the New Testament). The only reference to a possible Hell that I can find in the New Testament after Christ's Death is in 2 Peter 2:4 where it refers to angels being currently bound in Hell awaiting judgement- "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" Interestingly, Hell here has the root word of "Tartarus" (Is that the only use of "Tartarus" in the Bible? I havent been able to find it anywhere else)..
The references to a future Hell in Revelation are (I suspect) something totally different. These references use "Lake of Fire" instead of the other root words (although "Hades" is brought back in a separate context as an anthropomorphized presence which rides alongside Death before being engulfed by the Lake of Fire). I believe that the references to Hell and the Lake of Fire in Revelation are also on a societal level (similar to the references in the Olivet Discourse but on a much more apocalyptic scale)....but thats a bit more complicated and involved topic...Ill only open that can of worms if people are interested..

The word "harrowing" does not occur anywhere in the Bible. I looked it up it means "acutely distressing" Is that what Jesus did or is going to do?
And OBTW Jesus never went to hell. Unless you meant the grave.

 

[Der Alte]

My ¢¢
Below are quotes from three Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in
blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA] ​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

 

[Der Alte]

@white gardenia Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved.
These 2 passages do not indicate that everyone will be saved.
Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
= = =
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Tolworth John]

where I tend to agree with Universalism

Two points.
1/ use paragraphs, it makes reading and understand long passages much easier.

2/ Justice. Where is the justice in a sinner who has never acknowledge God, never felt sorrow for there sins and never repented of there sins going to heaven.
3/ why did Jesus have to die if God was just going to forgive everyone anyway?

 

[FineLinen]

Two points.
1/ use paragraphs, it makes reading and understand long passages much easier.

2/ Justice. Where is the justice in a sinner who has never acknowledge God, never felt sorrow for there sins and never repented of there sins going to heaven.
3/ why did Jesus have to die if God was just going to forgive everyone anyway?

Our Father beholds every one of us as His offspring in need of union within Him. Most have never seen Him or heard His voice saying come unto Me. Repentance must be granted by Him who is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all. Heaven is not the goal, ABBA is.

The Master of reconciliation, in union with Father, reconciles the whole creation, not part of it: the all of ta panta.

 

[Tolworth John]

Our Father beholds every one of us as His offspring in need of union within Him. Most have never seen Him or heard His voice saying come unto Me. Repentance must be granted by Him who is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all. Heaven is not the goal, ABBA is.

The Master of reconciliation, in union with Father, reconciles the whole creation, not part of it: the all of ta panta.

As it says in pslms, 'The heavens declare the glory of God, day after day they proclam his praise.'
and in romans, '; thet are without excuse.'

It is not so much that they have not heard, but that they do not want to hear and will not hear.

 

[dqhall]

I believe in a literal interpretation of the King James Bible, but studying it as literal truth has ironically gotten me to the point where I tend to agree with Universalism (that the most likely outcome for our universe is that God gets His way and everyone is brought to Salvation). I think one of the keys is the Harrowing of Hell.
There are definitely many references to hell before Christ's death (as in people who were currently in hell...the Rich Man from Luke 16...but also righteous men like Abraham, David, Samuel, King Saul, Saul's son etc (they are all referenced as descending down to Hades after death.... It seems that almost everyone went to hell under the Old Covenant). But it seems to me that all of that changed with Christ's death and the Harrowing of Hell.
As far as many of the the verses which include Christ's warnings about "Gehenna" in Matthew were warnings on a societal level. Passages like Matthew 25 seem to be referencing the impending doom of Jerusalem.....and what some might call "supersession" ...the idea that the Jewish people would no longer be the only race/ tribe that could be redeemed, and that a New Covenant had been established in the context of Christ's death. Indeed, many of Christ's warnings in Matthew seem to refer to an old Guard being "thrown out into the darkness" in favor of a new Guard (presumably comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who had accepted Christ). Christ also warned that this separation of the "sheep and the goats" would herald the "end of the age" but also predicated these warnings with time signifiers such as "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". It's interesting that Christ uses "Hades" in the story of Lazarus and The Rich Man but uses "Gehenna" when talking about the Sheep and the Goats. But what really convinces me that Christ's warnings in the Olivet Discourse are not about Hell (the same Hell that is referenced in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man) is that this entire sequence (including the warnings about the Sheep and the Goats and the references to kolasis and eternal destruction) is predicated with that time signifier- "These things will all happen before this generation passes away". Why would general warnings about Hell be pinned to any one time frame or generation? And of course much of what Christ predicted in the Olivet Discourse (or the "Little Apocalypse") did come true. Many theologians claim that he was accurately predicting both the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD and the transition to the Christian (New Covenant) era of human history.
Now back to Hades....Christ uses the word Hades to tell the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. But what happened to Hades upon Christ's death? Ephesians 4:9 says "..He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth..." 1st Peter 4:6 says "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."...and then 1st Peter 3:18 says “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah....”. And there are other passages of course...but the main point is that Christ descended to free the dead spirits (presumably including the Rich Man and Lazarus).
One of the most significant aspects of this Biblical timeline is that there is no mention of anyone being in Hades after Christ's death (The Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation is in the context of a future event that I will discuss in a moment). At no point in the New Testament AD (after Christ's death) is there any mention of anyone being in Hell (at least no mention that I have been able to find...feel free to correct me if I am wrong). To the contrary, it reiterates the freeing of those in Hell. As Acts 2:31 notes- "David, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ that ‘His soul was not left in hell, neither did His flesh see corruption." (notably this verse reverts back to the root word of Hades...after the root word of Gehenna had become commonplace in the New Testament). The only reference to a possible Hell that I can find in the New Testament after Christ's Death is in 2 Peter 2:4 where it refers to angels being currently bound in Hell awaiting judgement- "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" Interestingly, Hell here has the root word of "Tartarus" (Is that the only use of "Tartarus" in the Bible? I havent been able to find it anywhere else)..

The references to a future Hell in Revelation are (I suspect) something totally different. These references use "Lake of Fire" instead of the other root words (although "Hades" is brought back in a separate context as an anthropomorphized presence which rides alongside Death before being engulfed by the Lake of Fire). I believe that the references to Hell and the Lake of Fire in Revelation are also on a societal level (similar to the references in the Olivet Discourse but on a much more apocalyptic scale)....but thats a bit more complicated and involved topic...Ill only open that can of worms if people are interested..

In John 3:3 (WEB) Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.”

1 Peter 1:23 (WEB) having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For,

“All flesh is like grass,
and all of man’s glory like the flower in the grass.
The grass withers, and its flower falls;
25 but the Lord’s word endures forever.” Isaiah 40:6-8

Jesus taught, “Many are called but few are chosen.”

This is not universalism. One who is saved does not conform to the errors of his past. Peter warned against drunkenness and lust (against lewd and lascivious behavior).

 

[Saint Steven]

As it says in pslms, 'The heavens declare the glory of God, day after day they proclam his praise.'
and in romans, '; thet are without excuse.'

It is not so much that they have not heard, but that they do not want to hear and will not hear.

What about the mentally challenged and aborted/still-born/miscarried children?

 

[Saint Steven]

In John 3:3 (WEB) Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.”

This doesn't disqualify UR (universalism). No one will enter heaven until they are right with God.

Matthew 21:31b
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

1 Peter 1:23 (WEB) having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For,

“All flesh is like grass,
and all of man’s glory like the flower in the grass.
The grass withers, and its flower falls;
25 but the Lord’s word endures forever.” Isaiah 40:6-8

Verse 23 says "the word of God, which lives and remains forever." Will it be nullified in the afterlife?

Jesus taught, “Many are called but few are chosen.”

Based on what you are defending and this scripture, you are saying God has predestined those not chosen to ECT (eternal conscious torment).

This is not universalism. One who is saved does not conform to the errors of his past. Peter warned against drunkenness and lust (against lewd and lascivious behavior).

Sin has natural consequences in this lifetime.

 

[rwb]

And there are other passages of course...but the main point is that Christ descended to free the dead spirits (presumably including the Rich Man and Lazarus).

This is a poor assumption! Christ descended into the grave and led people of faith who were before Christ' resurrection captives of death taking them with Him when He ascended to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (WEB) Therefore he says, "When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." Now this, "He ascended," what is it but that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

The grave was, before the advent of Christ separated for those who died in faith and those who died in unbelief. That's why the parable shows us the rich man after death was buried and went to hell (hades, the place of the dead), but when Lazarus died, he was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. This being the place for those who before the advent of Christ died in faith. This is where Christ by His Spirit descended to after He died before He arose from the dead and ascended to heaven.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (WEB) Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.

Peter also speaks of Christ by His Spirit going to preach to those Old Covenant spirits of just men imprisoned by death before Christ came to free them from the bondage of death, taking them with Him to heaven as living (spirit) souls. Abraham's bosom, or that part of the place of the faithful dead was emptied by Christ. Since Christ has come and defeated both sin and death by His cross and resurrection when we die in faith, we go spiritually alive to heaven to be with the Lord in the place He went to prepare for us by His death.

 

[rwb]

What about the mentally challenged and aborted/still-born/miscarried children?

Salvation is of the Lord! He will save His people from their sins. It doesn't matter who His people are, we have His blessed assurance if they are His people they will be saved!

 

[rwb]

This doesn't disqualify UR (universalism). No one will enter heaven until they are right with God.

No one will enter heaven without a Savior! Only those of faith, believe Christ for eternal life. Not all men believe Him!

1 John 5:10-12 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[Saint Steven]

Salvation is of the Lord! He will save His people from their sins. It doesn't matter who His people are, we have His blessed assurance it they are His people they will be saved!

What are the requirements to be "His people"?

 

[rwb]

Based on what you are defending and this scripture, you are saying God has predestined those not chosen to ECT (eternal conscious torment).

God predestines men for life, not death! At creation man freely chose death rather than eternal life when he chose to disobey the Creator. According to Scripture if man dies in this freewill choice for death, then his fate will be eternal in the lake of fire.

 

[rwb]

What are the requirements to be "His people"?

As the Scripture tells us: Jonah 2:9 (KJV) But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[Saint Steven]

No one will enter heaven without a Savior! Only those of faith, believe Christ for eternal life. Not all men believe Him!

1 John 5:10-12 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The OP mentioned that those under the earth (in the realm of the dead) will acknowledge (willfully) that Jesus is Lord. The definition of "acknowledge" is important to this discussion. (see bottom of this post) Thanks.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

 

[Saint Steven]

God predestines men for life, not death! At creation man freely chose death rather than eternal life when he chose to disobey the Creator. According to Scripture if man dies in this freewill choice for death, then his fate will be eternal in the lake of fire.

No surprise there. All three views of the final judgment have biblical support, and all three contradict the others. The scripture below tells us that salvation is the result of one man's obedience. (Christ)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[rwb]

The OP mentioned that those under the earth (in the realm of the dead) will acknowledge (willfully) that Jesus is Lord. The definition of "acknowledge" is important to this discussion. (see bottom of this post) Thanks.

What acknowledgment of Christ was there from the infant John "even from his mother's womb"? Possession of the Holy Ghost at birth means John was destined for eternal life from the moment he was born. That's because salvation is of the Lord!

Luke 1:13-15 (KJV) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[rwb]

No surprise there. All three views of the final judgment have biblical support, and all three contradict the others. The scripture below tells us that salvation is the result of one man's obedience. (Christ)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Yes, the passage shows us that "the many" not "all" are made righteous through Christ. Because salvation is of the Lord. He will save HIS people, not ALL people from their sins.