saved by grace or by works

Doug Brents · Aug 5, 2022

Guojing said:
Think of the Great Commission as similar to God commanding Noah to build an ark.

Seeing it this way, you are correct, "It is still a command of God whether we are actually keeping it or not."

But the key point to understand is that God does not expect anyone to build an ark now.

That is "rightly dividing the word of truth".

Where did you come up with that connection? The Great Commission is not in any way similar to God’s command to Noah to build the Ark.

First, God promised that He would never again destroy the world by water, so there is no longer a need to build Arks.

Second, there is no Biblical evidence of anyone else following Noah’s example to build Arks, or evidence that Noah continued building Arks after the Flood.

However, God has promised to destroy the world completely and totally with fire. And everyone will stand at Judgment to give account. So everyone is still in need of “an Ark” (Jesus) to bring them through Judgement. As Noah preached (2 Pet 2:5) to this around him while he built the Ark, we have been sent to preach Jesus to those around us.

Also, there is evidence throughout the NT that most (of not all) of the converts to Christ went on to teach others the Good News. When Saul persecuted the Church, the people scattered and went everywhere preaching the Gospel (Acts 8:4). 2 Tim 4:2 directed at Timothy, and through him to us as well, “Preach the Word!” Be ready at all times to teach, preach, build up, and correct anyone in the way of Christ.

Guojing · Aug 5, 2022

Doug Brents said:
Where did you come up with that connection? The Great Commission is not in any way similar to God’s command to Noah to build the Ark.

First, God promised that He would never again destroy the world by water, so there is no longer a need to build Arks.

Second, there is no Biblical evidence of anyone else following Noah’s example to build Arks, or evidence that Noah continued building Arks after the Flood.

However, God has promised to destroy the world completely and totally with fire. And everyone will stand at Judgment to give account. So everyone is still in need of “an Ark” (Jesus) to bring them through Judgement. As Noah preached (2 Pet 2:5) to this around him while he built the Ark, we have been sent to preach Jesus to those around us.

Also, there is evidence throughout the NT that most (of not all) of the converts to Christ went on to teach others the Good News. When Saul persecuted the Church, the people scattered and went everywhere preaching the Gospel (Acts 8:4). 2 Tim 4:2 directed at Timothy, and through him to us as well, “Preach the Word!” Be ready at all times to teach, preach, build up, and correct anyone in the way of Christ.

That is because you chose to ignore the statement by Paul that the nation Israel has currently fallen in the eyes of God (Romans 11:11).

Once you are able to accept that Matthew 28:18-20 is directed to the nation Israel, you can see the link I was making between Noah's Ark and this.

As you said, "God promised that He would never again destroy the world by water, so there is no longer a need to build Arks."

I am saying "Israel is currently fallen in the eyes of God, so there is no longer a need to follow the Great Commission".

Same reasoning.

BABerean2 · Aug 5, 2022

Guojing said:
That is because you chose to ignore the statement by Paul that the nation Israel has currently fallen in the eyes of God (Romans 11:11).

Only part of the nation of Israel... See the word "remnant" below.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

.

Guojing · Aug 5, 2022

BABerean2 said:
Only part of the nation of Israel... See the word "remnant" below.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

.

I said the nation has fallen. But a remnant from that nation is saved, that is true.

But the point is, that remnant is no longer around on the Earth now.

So no more Great Commission, just like no more ark.

Doug Brents · Aug 6, 2022

Guojing said:
I said the nation has fallen. But a remnant from that nation is saved, that is true.

But the point is, that remnant is no longer around on the Earth now.

So no more Great Commission, just like no more ark.

Just wow!

The Church (the body of Christ, the redeemed, etc.) is Israel today. Those who are descended from Abraham who do not believe in Christ have been cut off from Israel, and those who are not descended from Abraham who do believe in Christ are grafted into Israel. Again, there is only the saved (Israel) and the lost (not Israel) today. The Great Commission is to the saved to bring the lost into the saved, for God desires that none should be lost, but that all should come to repentance.

Guojing · Aug 6, 2022

Doug Brents said:
Just wow!

The Church (the body of Christ, the redeemed, etc.) is Israel today. Those who are descended from Abraham who do not believe in Christ have been cut off from Israel, and those who are not descended from Abraham who do believe in Christ are grafted into Israel. Again, there is only the saved (Israel) and the lost (not Israel) today. The Great Commission is to the saved to bring the lost into the saved, for God desires that none should be lost, but that all should come to repentance.

I see, if you believe that we in the Body of Christ is Israel, then I can understand why you hold fast to the Great Commission.

But at least you are willing to admit that you don't teach others to obey everything that Jesus taught Israel to obey during his 1st coming, at least not Luke 12:33.

Doug Brents · Aug 7, 2022

Guojing said:
I see, if you believe that we in the Body of Christ is Israel, then I can understand why you hold fast to the Great Commission.

But at least you are willing to admit that you don't teach others to obey everything that Jesus taught Israel to obey during his 1st coming, at least not Luke 12:33.

On the contrary, I do teach people to obey everything that Jesus taught, including Luke 12:33 (I still don’t understand your fixation on that verse).

That passage does not command that we sell EVERYTHING we have, but to sell our abundance. We are still to provide for our families; to feed, clothe, and care for them. But we are not to seek to amass great wealth that we hoard to ourselves (like the man in the parable who tore down his barns to build bigger ones to hold all he had). This excess is to be sold and given away, not the basic necessities of living.

Guojing · Aug 7, 2022

Doug Brents said:
On the contrary, I do teach people to obey everything that Jesus taught, including Luke 12:33 (I still don’t understand your fixation on that verse).

That passage does not command that we sell EVERYTHING we have, but to sell our abundance. We are still to provide for our families; to feed, clothe, and care for them. But we are not to seek to amass great wealth that we hoard to ourselves (like the man in the parable who tore down his barns to build bigger ones to hold all he had). This excess is to be sold and given away, not the basic necessities of living.

I see, you teach that by changing what Jesus said to something more comfortable to you.

Doug Brents · Aug 8, 2022

Guojing said:
I see, you teach that by changing what Jesus said to something more comfortable to you.

No, not at all. I am not changing anything He said. You are adding the word “everything” to the text. It is not there. Christ didn’t tell us to sell everything we own.

msortwell · Aug 8, 2022

Guojing said:
I see, you teach that by changing what Jesus said to something more comfortable to you.

Doug Brents said:
No, not at all. I am not changing anything He said. You are adding the word “everything” to the text. It is not there. Christ didn’t tell us to sell everything we own.

And inserting “everything” would make it difficult to understand why Jesus would later say the following to his disciples (Luke 17:22) . . . As recorded in Luke 17:28-31.

“Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.”

What are these “goods” to which Jesus refers - goods remaining because of expected disobedience? No. The command should not be twisted to mean that Jesus’ followers divest of all material possessions. There are any number of examples of the pious having material possessions.

Guojing · Aug 8, 2022

Doug Brents said:
No, not at all. I am not changing anything He said. You are adding the word “everything” to the text. It is not there. Christ didn’t tell us to sell everything we own.

Luke 12:33 KJV
Sell that ye have, and give alms

When Jesus says "Sell that ye have", you changed it to "sell your excess/abundance", and you try to convince yourself that is what Jesus really meant.

Guojing · Aug 8, 2022

msortwell said:
No. The command should not be twisted to mean that Jesus’ followers divest of all material possessions.

There is no need for me to twist what Jesus said and try to explain what Jesus "really meant".

Jesus can speak for himself and don't need us to explain his literal words away.

There is sound reason why Israel needed to follow that command by Jesus literally. Daniel's 70th week was coming, the mark of the beast will become a reality then.

The more possessions you have, the more tempted one will be to take the mark of the beast.

With this understanding, you can better understand what James 5:1-8 was trying to say, when James was making fun of the rich Jews who refused to join in sharing their possessions.

Doug Brents · Aug 8, 2022

Guojing said:
Luke 12:33 KJV
Sell that ye have, and give alms

When Jesus says "Sell that ye have", you changed it to "sell your excess/abundance", and you try to convince yourself that is what Jesus really meant.

You are adding the word “all” in that command. It is not there. If you sell “all” that you have, then you become one of the pour to whom your alms are to be given. That makes no sense.

The key to understanding this verse is in the second half of it. Why are we to sell our possessions? As I pointed out in the beginning of this conversation, to build up treasures in Heaven which do not rot or get stolen (are eternal). So the point isn’t really how much of your possessions you sell, but where the treasure you are seeking to amass resides: here on Earth where it will be lost and destroyed, or in Heaven where it will remain for eternity?

Is you wealth in this life an end in itself? Or is it a tool with which you are building you Heavenly treasure?
This is a mirror to Matt 6:19-21, “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Guojing · Aug 8, 2022

Doug Brents said:
You are adding the word “all” in that command. It is not there. If you sell “all” that you have, then you become one of the pour to whom your alms are to be given. That makes no sense.

The key to understanding this verse is in the second half of it. Why are we to sell our possessions? As I pointed out in the beginning of this conversation, to build up treasures in Heaven which do not rot or get stolen (are eternal). So the point isn’t really how much of your possessions you sell, but where the treasure you are seeking to amass resides: here on Earth where it will be lost and destroyed, or in Heaven where it will remain for eternity?

Is you wealth in this life an end in itself? Or is it a tool with which you are building you Heavenly treasure?
This is a mirror to Matt 6:19-21, “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

What does “sell that you have” means to you literally, without you adding anything else in to it?

Doug Brents · Aug 9, 2022

Guojing said:
What does “sell that you have” means to you literally, without you adding anything else in to it?

I have already explained that. You cannot take that one phrase out of context and understand what Jesus means. The key to properly understanding that phrase is the verses before and after, and the rest of that verse.

“Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

If your treasure is your possessions, then you will hold on to them and not be willing to part with them. But if your treasure is in Heaven and your possessions on Earth are just tools to build that Heavenly treasure then you will be willing, eager even, to sell them and give the money to the poor.

Now, elsewhere we are told to give freely, liberally, and even sacrificially, but no where are we told to give everything. Yes, the “rich young ruler” was told to sell everything, but he was a specific case of someone whose things owned him. Jesus saw in him his true need and told him how to get it. If that applies to you, then do likewise. But that doesn’t apply to everyone. Luke 12:33 does apply to everyone, but the instruction to the “rich young ruler” do not apply to everyone, but only to him.

Jesse Dornfeld · Aug 9, 2022

jameshjr said:
So I went for a walk with someone I know from my church for the first time. We eventually got around to talking about Jesus.

He asked me how i came to the faith, and I informed him that i had spent most of my life looking for truth and that i finally came to christianity and found it to be true.

He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.

I said, is that not where Christianity is different: in that we are saved by grace through faith. To which i cannot remember his response.

More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.

Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.

I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.

I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).

I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.

To counter the idea of being saved by grace through faith is the concluding text of Matthew 28:18-20. Which i think could be argued that Jesus wants us to do as he taught (leaning more towards deeds over grace through faith).

I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?

I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.

P.s. i do beleive that Jesus is the son of God and has clear authority given to him from the Father, and therefore whatever he taught, i believe is what i should (try to) follow, and would like to clarify exactly what that is.

You should trust Paul.

Grace and works is a tricky thing. The Reformers believe, "We are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone" but Catholics believe works are necessary for salvation. I take the middle-of-the-road approach. I think without progressive sanctification we will not enter the kingdom of God. That means God wants to conform us more into His image as time passes. If we are Christians for cultural or other reasons besides actually believing it, our faith is in vain. Jesus says, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." It is out of love we are obedient, not necessarily out of duty because "We love Him because He first loved us." If we do not progress in sanctification (doing more good works and less sin as time passes) then we have little to show for our faith and as such our faith is not really worth much.

Guojing · Aug 9, 2022

Doug Brents said:
I have already explained that. You cannot take that one phrase out of context and understand what Jesus means. The key to properly understanding that phrase is the verses before and after, and the rest of that verse.

“Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

If your treasure is your possessions, then you will hold on to them and not be willing to part with them. But if your treasure is in Heaven and your possessions on Earth are just tools to build that Heavenly treasure then you will be willing, eager even, to sell them and give the money to the poor.

Now, elsewhere we are told to give freely, liberally, and even sacrificially, but no where are we told to give everything. Yes, the “rich young ruler” was told to sell everything, but he was a specific case of someone whose things owned him. Jesus saw in him his true need and told him how to get it. If that applies to you, then do likewise. But that doesn’t apply to everyone. Luke 12:33 does apply to everyone, but the instruction to the “rich young ruler” do not apply to everyone, but only to him.

So even though Luke 12:33 had Jesus stating "sell that you have", you believe he actually meant sell "the excess" you have.

Okay, let's move on from this point.

iwbswiaihl · Aug 9, 2022

Mark doesn't teach salvation by works either, all of scripture walks hand in hands, there are no error nor doctrines nor verses in context that contradict each other, 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Being young in the faith, I would recommend you stay in the NT for sometime and read 5 chapters every day. You would be reading to become familiar with the word of God. There are only 250 chapters in the NT, so that would mean you only would be reading for 50 days to have read the whole NT. When reading the chapters, I would recommend you read the chapters to start being renewed in your mind of what is being said, I would just take a note if something comes up while you are reading, finish the 5 chapters and then look up more about the passage that brings up something in your mind. And you will be surprised at what I am going to tell you now, but check it out, if a question comes up in your mind just be as precise as you can and google it and you will find the answer to your question, such as, does the bible mention I can have perfect peace with God, it will come up with Isaiah 26:3 thou will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you. There are great sites on the bible for free, explore them. If you have a question, just post it, there are those on this thread that will be glad to help, but make sure it goes with what the scripture actually says. And when you find a scripture that speaks to your heart and need, memorize it, it gets easier the more you memorize, say the verse every day, you will be amazed at the Lord will bless your efforts, Ps 119:11 thy work have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against you.

Doug Brents · Aug 9, 2022

Guojing said:
So even though Luke 12:33 had Jesus stating "sell that you have", you believe he actually meant sell "the excess" you have.

Okay, let's move on from this point.

Where in that verse do you get “all” or “everything”? It is not there. The verse says sell what you have and give to the poor. It does not say sell “all” that you own. Nor does it say sell “everything” that you have. No where in the Greek is there even a hint at totality.

fhansen · Aug 9, 2022

jameshjr said:
So I went for a walk with someone I know from my church for the first time. We eventually got around to talking about Jesus.

He asked me how i came to the faith, and I informed him that i had spent most of my life looking for truth and that i finally came to christianity and found it to be true.

He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.

I said, is that not where Christianity is different: in that we are saved by grace through faith. To which i cannot remember his response.

More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.

Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.

I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.

I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).

I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.

To counter the idea of being saved by grace through faith is the concluding text of Matthew 28:18-20. Which i think could be argued that Jesus wants us to do as he taught (leaning more towards deeds over grace through faith).

I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?

I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.

P.s. i do beleive that Jesus is the son of God and has clear authority given to him from the Father, and therefore whatever he taught, i believe is what i should (try to) follow, and would like to clarify exactly what that is.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

We have to understand that the New Covenant was never, ever, ever intended as a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous- but rather the true authentic means to that very righteousness, finally. Faith, by establishing union with God, making Him our God again, IOW, accomplishes in us the righteousness that the law could not.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord." Jer 31:3-34

Now we must remain in Him, doing His will by the Spirit, with the help of His grace as we daily pick up our cross and follow Him.

"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

Man was made for communion with God and is lost, sick, dead without Him . That was Adams legacy, and that's what we're here to learn, and to grow in that conviction throughout our lives, as we draw nearer to Him rather than away
.

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