The Church ?

The church, which Christ told Peter he will build, started on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), when the body of gathered beleivers were filled with the Holy Spirit. It is marked by a permanent presence of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16), unlike in the days of the OT when the Spirit could depart (1 Samuel 16:14). It was commissioned to preach the gospel - which is the death, buriel, and resurrection of Christ. I believe it is raptured prior to the tribulation, which is the calling to the marriage supper of the lamb, to take place in Heaven during those 7 years, and then return with Christ at the second coming. It's being caught away is what allows the restrainer of 2 Thess 2 to be taken out of the way, so that the antichrist can be revealed. During that time, we do not see the church preaching the gospel, but rather an angel "having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," (Rev 14:6)

DaveM said:

The Church is everyone who comes to father under the blood of Jesus. Unless someone can present another way to obtain salvation, we are all under the blood of Jesus and all part of the church !! IMO

Click to expand...

It sounds like you've answered your own question! And I like your reply.

DaveM said:

If the church has been comisioned to spread the gospel until the end of time why would God remove them before the end??

Click to expand...

Hi Dave, do you have a passage that the commission was until the "end of time"? I see the commission, and, seperately, I see that the gospel must be preached to all nations. I don't see here a requirement that it be the church that fulfills it until the end of time. In fact, I see an angel fulfilling it in Rev 14:6

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:14

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Rev 14:6

DaveM said:

is there another way to be saved during the tribulation other then Jesus?

Click to expand...

Was there another way to be saved in the OT? The church wasn't there then.

DaveM said:

Is there another gospel during the tribulation?

Click to expand...

There doesn't have to be.

DaveM said:

When the two witnesses come, they will be proclaiming the gospel, they will be pointing people to Jesus, that is what the church does.

When the 144,000 are appointed, they will be proclaiming the gospel, they will be pointing people to Christ, that is what the church does.

Click to expand...

The OT also pointed people to Jesus:
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:39

Also, the sermons of the church won't just disappear when the church does, as they will be stored on the internet, in people's memories, etc... It may even be the rapture that causes them to have a change of mind and believe the message that had been preached to them beforehand.

DaveM said:

Mathew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus always tells the church to endure to the end. Jesus is speaking to the church members, warning us about the great tribulation, and to endure to the end, not that we will be raptured out before it takes place.

Matthew 24:21
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Click to expand...

I still think you're making a logical leap, but I just wanted to understand why you believe as you do. Which I think I do now. Thanks!

DaveM said:

What is it? what is its job? when did it start? who is in it?

Click to expand...

You just entered the complex and controversial subset known as Ecclesiology, and it is a good thing that we don’t have a forum dedicated to it, because the good feelings cultivated between members of Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox and other traditional churches in Traditional Theology might be jeopardized. Even between the great churches of episcopal polity, including the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, most Methodists and some Lutherans, there would be a bitter debate about ecclesiology potentially between all five (the Lutherans and Methodists might be in agreement, but they might not; some ecclesiological comments of John Wesley seem closer to Orthodoxy) and then when we introduce other denominations, like Baptists with the Local Church Ecclesiology, the result is one of serious controversy.

So @DaveM the most irenic way of answering your question without igniting a firestorm of controversy between members of every single denomination, for there is nothing approaching ecumenical consensus, although there are shared ideas and ideologies, would be “exactly.” A more helpful answer would be to suggest you ask Christians from different denominations and forms of Christianity their opinion.

Albion said:

It sounds like you've answered your own question! And I like your reply.

Click to expand...

His answer described the eschatological function of the church but not its ecclesiological identity or correct organization.

DaveM said:

What is it?

Click to expand...

The Body of Christ

DaveM said:

what is its job?

Click to expand...

To save souls

DaveM said:

when did it start?

Click to expand...

Pentecost

DaveM said:

who is in it?

Click to expand...

all those who are Baptized "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

DaveM said:

we are to preach the gospel, to lead people to Christ

Click to expand...

Christ and His Church are One (Acts). We are led to be members of His Church.

DaveM said:

but ultimately it is the Holly spirit who draws people in

Click to expand...

yes, because the Holy Spirit is active in His Church.

DaveM said:

and Jesus blood that save the soul is my thinking.

Click to expand...

"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you".

As a Lutheran I like looking at Luther's concept of the seven characteristics or marks of the Church,

The Church is externally recognizable as the Christian people who:

-God has given possession of His word, the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Holy Scriptures, etc.
-are baptized
-celebrate the Lord's Supper
-have received the Keys of the kingdom
-call and ordain ministers to exercise the Keys for the good of the Faithful
-worships together through prayer, praise, thanksgiving, song, confessing the Creed, etc
-experiences suffering in the world as cross-carrying disciples of Jesus

In the Smalcald Articles (one of the Lutheran Confessions) it is presented more briefly and simply as, the Church is "the holy believers and lambs who hear the voice of their Shepherd. For the children pray thus: I believe in one holy [catholic or] Christian Church." (Smalcald Articles, Article XII.2)

In this we can also see the purpose of the Church:

-to believe, preach, and proclaim the word
-to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit
-to come together in peace and the unity of faith to receive the Lord's Supper
-to offer God thanksgiving and praise, and to declare His goodness and truth in the world as His people
-to love our neighbors, to carry our cross as disciples, to care for the weak, the poor, the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, etc.

God has made us members of the Body of Christ in order that we might live as such. As the Apostle has written, "To live is Christ, and to die is gain."

-CryptoLutheran