Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

bbbbbbb

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Do you ask others to pray for you? Why or why not?

I do pray to Jesus Christ who is God.
Actually, I do not ask others to pray for me primarily because I am a rare individual who seems to not have any prayer needs. The difficulties in my life are intractable and my blessings are immeasurable.

I find that, apart from thanksgiving and worship, my petitions, such as they are, are really quite petty and meaningless. For example, a desperate single lady asked me to pray to God for a man for her. I asked her if she had any particular specifications concerning this man and she told me that she deserved to have a man (husband) from God and that she did not have any stipulations. However, when she called me the very next day to tell me that she had been on a date with a man who seriously wanted to marry her, I told her that God had, indeed, answered my prayer. She heartily disagreed with me because she did not like this man at all. It has now been well over two decades and she is still waiting for God to provide the man of her dreams.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Thank you for your kind words. Perhaps you might give it a like if you enjoyed it, because this might make my posts easier to find with the revised versions of the forum software, similiar to how the YouTube algorithm works. For my part I try to upvote as many posts as possible, even those of members who I disagree with, when they put forward eloquent arguments, indeed, better yet, to give specific ratings such as friendly, informative, useful, winner, agree, and so on as opposed to just a generic like.

For example, I regard @bbbbbbb as a good friend even though he and I obviously disagree on several doctrinal issues and I upvote his posts accordingly.

Actually i try very hard to be friends with everyone on this forum and there are only a handful of members who sadly I havent been able to connect with on some level, but this is doubtless because of my sinful proclivities, since I struggle with the passions such as pride and I need your prayer, for I am a pathetic sinner.

Yes, I also consider you to be a good friend of mine, as well, although we do have our disagreements. I also consider RileyG to be a friend. He has been more than patient with me and I great appreciate that.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Those in Heaven are alive, not dead. As to intercessory prayer, there have so many intercessions over the centuries.
It is difficult to objectively assess the reality of intercessions. Islam and Hinduism, to mention only two major religions, have lengthy lists of miracles and intercessions which have (allegedly) taken place as a result of prayers to their various saints and gods.
 
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Actually, I do not ask others to pray for me primarily because I am a rare individual who seems to not have any prayer needs. The difficulties in my life are intractable and my blessings are immeasurable.

I find that, apart from thanksgiving and worship, my petitions, such as they are, are really quite petty and meaningless. For example, a desperate single lady asked me to pray to God for a man for her. I asked her if she had any particular specifications concerning this man and she told me that she deserved to have a man (husband) from God and that she did not have any stipulations. However, when she called me the very next day to tell me that she had been on a date with a man who seriously wanted to marry her, I told her that God had, indeed, answered my prayer. She heartily disagreed with me because she did not like this man at all. It has now been well over two decades and she is still waiting for God to provide the man of her dreams.
That's a very fascinating answer and I have no idea how to answer. Typically, people ask others to pray for them, and that is why we ask for our dearly departed in heaven to pray for us.
 
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It is difficult to objectively assess the reality of intercessions. Islam and Hinduism, to mention only two major religions, have lengthy lists of miracles and intercessions which have (allegedly) taken place as a result of prayers to their various saints and gods.
.....they don't believe in Christ so their miracles are in vain.
 
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bbbbbbb

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.....they don't believe in Christ so their miracles are in vain.
The problem is that, from a purely objective standpoint it is exceedingly difficult to discount their miracles, even though I certainly believe them to be quite invalid, even as it is equally difficult to verify the truth of the miracles we believe in.

One curious example comes to my mind. In many churches it is believed that the bread and the wine become the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ at the Eucharist. This is a truly amazing miracle that, in itself, ought to be sufficient to convert the hardest skeptic. However, to complicate matters considerable some of these churches proclaim "Eucharistic miracles" in which the bread and wine actually did become the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ. That presents a conundrum. If, in fact, the bread and wine are miraculously converted into the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ at each and every Eucharist, how is it that only a few rare instances are actually believed to be actually true?

Now, your standard skeptic would suggest subjecting the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ that was transformed from bread and wine to simple scientific analysis to determine the amount of actual human DNA. To date, this has not been done because, it could be faith-shattering for some people to discover that there is no human DNA present.

There was a similar problem with the Shroud of Turin, which was actually given a thorough scientific analysis in 1978 by a select group of scientists, including Walter McCrone, the pre-eminent microscopist. His firm conclusion was that the red markings on the cloth were produced with red pigment in a gelatin medium. To say the least, this was quite concerning, and various efforts were put forth to discredit his findings.

 
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bbbbbbb

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That's a very fascinating answer and I have no idea how to answer. Typically, people ask others to pray for them, and that is why we ask for our dearly departed in heaven to pray for us.
I understand that. It is not that I don't believe in prayer. I tend to sort out my needs from my wants and discover that all of my needs have been met thus far in my life. Now, there are some intractable issues, such as my personal health, which might be considered a need, but I count myself blessed to have so few intractable health issues in my life.

In any event, I have not yet found God to fail to answer my prayers. I have learned to be careful about what to ask, as the lady I mentioned did, because God just might give me what I ask for.
 
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JSRG

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One curious example comes to my mind. In many churches it is believed that the bread and the wine become the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ at the Eucharist. This is a truly amazing miracle that, in itself, ought to be sufficient to convert the hardest skeptic. However, to complicate matters considerable some of these churches proclaim "Eucharistic miracles" in which the bread and wine actually did become the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ. That presents a conundrum. If, in fact, the bread and wine are miraculously converted into the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ at each and every Eucharist, how is it that only a few rare instances are actually believed to be actually true?

I am not sure of the other churches that believe the bread and wine become the real body and blood of Jesus, but in regards to Catholicism, you seem to be misunderstanding the doctrine, at least as far as I understand it.

According to transubstantiation, while the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, only the substance changes, not the species or appearance. The Council of Trent lays out the doctrine thusly:

"In the first place, the holy synod teaches, and openly and simply professes, that, in the sacred sacrament of the holy Eucharist, after the consecration of the bread and wine, our Lord Jesus Christ, true God and man, is truly, really, and substantially contained under the species of those sensible things."

Another translation renders it as:

"First of all, the holy council teaches and openly and plainly professes that after the consecration of bread and wine, our Lord Jesus Christ, true God and true man, is truly, really and substantially contained in the august sacrament of the Holy Eucharist under the appearance of those sensible things."

Thus, the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus, but the appearance or species of bread and wine remains (some theologians used the terms "substance" and "accidents" but the councils that defined it, like Trent, did not use those terms). In other words, although becoming the body and blood of Jesus insofar as the substance changes, it looks like bread and wine and has the same effects as bread and wine; for example, the wine can still make you drunk if you drink too much of it. So no attempt at a DNA analysis would yield anything because it retains the appearance and species of bread and wine, so the change cannot be detected.

Now, your standard skeptic would suggest subjecting the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ that was transformed from bread and wine to simple scientific analysis to determine the amount of actual human DNA. To date, this has not been done because, it could be faith-shattering for some people to discover that there is no human DNA present.

As noted, according to Catholic theology a normal Eucharist would not have detectable DNA because the species/appearance of bread and wine remains. Even if there's DNA in the substance, there isn't any in the species, which is all that humans would be able to detect. As you alluded, however, there are a few Eucharistic miracles where a perceptible physical change does occur (or as the theology would say, the appearance/species changes). It appears--or at least it is claimed--that DNA tests have been done in some of such cases, as described here:
 
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Valletta

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The problem is that, from a purely objective standpoint it is exceedingly difficult to discount their miracles, even though I certainly believe them to be quite invalid, even as it is equally difficult to verify the truth of the miracles we believe in.

One curious example comes to my mind. In many churches it is believed that the bread and the wine become the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ at the Eucharist. This is a truly amazing miracle that, in itself, ought to be sufficient to convert the hardest skeptic. However, to complicate matters considerable some of these churches proclaim "Eucharistic miracles" in which the bread and wine actually did become the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ. That presents a conundrum. If, in fact, the bread and wine are miraculously converted into the actual, real body and blood of Jesus Christ at each and every Eucharist, how is it that only a few rare instances are actually believed to be actually true?
I agree it is exceedingly difficult to discount some miracles, particularly a miracle like at Fatima where there were tens of thousands of witnesses. With over a billion Catholics it is to be expected that not all are going to provide a perfect and exact explanation. That during the words of a priest at consecration bread and wine are turned into the true and real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is part of our Catholic faith and the faith of the Eastern Orthodox. This is a miracle that happens every day. There have been miracles where the APPEARANCE of the Holy Eucharist has been changed, so that presumably if a scientist did a test on the physical material present the results would show human flesh/blood. Some might refer to a scientific examination as determining reality, I suppose it might depend about a person's view of reality. It would be more accurate to state the APPEARANCE has miraculously changed. If you need a more detailed answer you will have to provide a specific example.
 
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The Liturgist

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It is difficult to objectively assess the reality of intercessions. Islam and Hinduism, to mention only two major religions, have lengthy lists of miracles and intercessions which have (allegedly) taken place as a result of prayers to their various saints and gods.

Well, there is alwaya the incorruptible relics of St. Spyridon, which are always found to be 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, and whose shoes become worn out in the course of a year…

Then there is the Romanian village where in 2009 St. Nektarios of Pentapolis showed up and baptized several children, heard confessions and served the Eucharist. Due to a shortage of priests, there had not been a baptism or divine liturgy for several years. Interestingly St. Panteleimon reposed in the 1920s; the villagers did not know who he was but described him accurately, and his signature in the parish register was determined to be authentic through forensic examination.

We also have the myrhh streaming relics of St. Nicholas of Myra, which are now located in Bari after having been stolen from the Orthodox, but they continue to produce myrhh (fortunately the Catholics of late have been returning many of the relics the Venetians and other Western European powers stole from us, such as the head of St. Mark).

Also, John Calvin did once make an error which would doubtless have embarassed him had he lived an extra 400 years. He claimed there were enough relics of the Holy Cross to make a Galleon, but when, in the 19th century, a French scientist calculated the mass of all known relics of the Holy Cross, he came up with only 1/3rd of the total mass. To my knowledge this was before it became known the Ethiopian Orthodox have an entire wing of the cross. Which they deserve to have, given their indefatigable faith in the face of immense suffering at the hands of fascists, communists and Islamist terrorists. And who else prays in church for six hours on a Sunday, abstains from alcohol except for one cup of mild beer on a couple of church feasts, and also from marijuana (the prohibition of which is the main stumbling block for prospective converts from Rastafarianism, but nonetheless the Ethiopian Orthodox are growing in the West Indies despite their prohibition of marijuana), and also abstain from meat for more than half of the year, like their Eastern Orthodox brethren?

I could go on concerning miracles but I suggest instead you seek to experience some for yourself.

Also, your argument is fallacious - by the logic you employed @bbbbbbb we might as well not believe in God. Christianity is not defined by excluding every doctrine believed in by false religions. Indeed, we know, from Scripture, that our adversary the devil seeks to make the heathen religions as close to the true faith as possible, in order to draw us away from Christ our true God. Islam is proof of this.

And also, I would hope you are aware of the fact that the veneration of the saints in Christianity predated Islam by several centuries. It began chiefly as veneration of the Apostles, the Theotokos and the Martyrs. Indeed in early Christian writings we find that the Eucharist was celebrated on the tombs of martyrs, and the churches later built on these locations were called martyria. Islam copied a great deal from Christianity, to the point that St. John of Damascus in writing about it in the eighth century treated it as yet another heretical sect, like the Manicheans, Valentinians, Arians, Marcionites, Ebionites, Ophites, Nestorians and other heretics.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Prayers for the dead, intersessions for those in purgatory Are part and parcel of the daily worship of the Catholic Church. Others may refrain from doing these things some may eschew them as wicked, but Catholics will always remember the dead and pray for them.
 
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food4thought

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Prayers for the dead, intersessions for those in purgatory Are part and parcel of the daily worship of the Catholic Church. Others may refrain from doing these things some may eschew them as wicked, but Catholics will always remember the dead and pray for them.
Hi Xeno.of.athens. One thing I have never understood is the prayers to the Saints. Praying for the dead I can at least understand even if I don't think it avails anything. But prayers to Saints has always seemed strange to me because we have no need of another intercessor for us, we have Jesus Christ, and the Father Himself loves us and desires our good. Why waste time praying to a Saint when we have God available. Also, what do you do with this scripture:

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
(1 Timothy 2:5)​

Thanks in advance for your reply.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Hi Xeno.of.athens. One thing I have never understood is the prayers to the Saints. Praying for the dead I can at least understand even if I don't think it avails anything. But prayers to Saints has always seemed strange to me because we have no need of another intercessor for us, we have Jesus Christ, and the Father Himself loves us and desires our good. Why waste time praying to a Saint when we have God available. Also, what do you do with this scripture:

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
(1 Timothy 2:5)​

Thanks in advance for your reply.
I ask my friends for their prayers, they intercede for me, do you never ask for prayers?
 
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I ask my friends for their prayers, they intercede for me, do you never ask for prayers?

Hi Xeno.of.athens. One thing I have never understood is the prayers to the Saints. Praying for the dead I can at least understand even if I don't think it avails anything. But prayers to Saints has always seemed strange to me because we have no need of another intercessor for us, we have Jesus Christ, and the Father Himself loves us and desires our good. Why waste time praying to a Saint when we have God available. Also, what do you do with this scripture:

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
(1 Timothy 2:5)​

Thanks in advance for your reply.
In the bible , there is not a Greek word for PURAGORY ,!!

And in Isa 9:5 reads forb the GRAVE , CANNOT // LO , is a PARTICLE NEGATIVE and it means can NEVERRRRRRRR , Praise thee .

Here is another one in Eccl 9:5 , reads , But the DEAD know ANYTHING , PERIOD !!


dan p
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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In the bible , there is not a Greek word for PURAGORY ,!!

And in Isa 9:5 reads forb the GRAVE , CANNOT // LO , is a PARTICLE NEGATIVE and it means can NEVERRRRRRRR , Praise thee .

Here is another one in Eccl 9:5 , reads , But the DEAD know ANYTHING , PERIOD !!


dan p
Are you doing the soul sleep thing?
 
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food4thought

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I ask my friends for their prayers, they intercede for me, do you never ask for prayers?
I guess that makes sense. I just can't wrap my mind around prayer to anyone but God.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I guess that makes sense. I just can't wrap my mind around prayer to anyone but God.
Pray means ask. If you ask your friends to pray for you then you have prayed to them because you asked them.
 
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Jipsah

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I am not at all sure which is worse - praying for the dead (saints) or praying to the dead.
Then don't do either. No one will care.

Then up and spake an old Sailòr,
Had sailed to the Spanish Main,
"I pray thee, put into yonder port,
For I fear a hurricane.
 
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The point, rather, is do any deceased people hear prayers offered to them or do they need prayers offered for them?
I will pray for my dead, and I will ask departed saints to pray for me. You must do what you think best.
 
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