The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

keras · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
What you are missing is that on the timeline, the Jews en-masse become Christians after their debacle of thinking the Antichrist is their messiah. And though they become Christians at that time, they are not the church, but the great tribulation saints.

This belief is not Biblical and is never said to happen.
The Jews en-mass, are destroyed and only a remnant survive. Isaiah 6:11-13. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27, +

ewq1938 said:
It's related.

Wishful thinking. They are totally different concepts.

ewq1938 said:
he is correct that peace and safety is the norm for the beast's empire and his people before the 7th trump sounds.

Yes; there will be peace for the first half of the 7 year peace treaty. Daniel 9:27.
But that isn't the peace which Paul prophesies in 1 Thess 5:3

Douggg said:
It is not the earth's atmosphere that will be parted. Otherwise, everyone on earth would died in a few minutes, for the lack of air to breathe.

This massive strike will mostly affect the Middle East region. Zephaniah 2:4 Everything there will die. Hosea 4:3, Jeremiah 9:10-12, Ezekiel 15:8
The other side of the earth and distant areas will mostly survive.

Douggg said:
It is the cosmos, the stars you see up in the sky, the second heaven, that will part, rolled back like a scroll, the stars appearing to fall to earth as they disappear over the horizon.

The actual stars are far too far away to be affected. Just another mini nova of our star; the sun, like we see in distant galaxies.
The 'stars' that will fall will be our thousands of satellites. Rev 6:13 says they will crash to the earth.

Douggg said:
The peace and safety illusion, ending when the Antichrist, false messiah, claims to have achieved God-hood -

The first half of the final 7 years will be peaceful. THEN the AC conquers the holy people and sits in the Temple. Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:5-8

Douggg said:
Once the Day of the Lord begins, it is during that time, the seven bowls of God's wrath are poured out.

Are you totally incapable of reading Bible references given here?
I proved with 4 scriptures that the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is just one literal day.

Douggg said:
It is not now that the world is saying peace and safety. The latest is the Russians are threatening to invade the Ukraine.

So; what's new. And is anyone panicking yet?
I think there may be a good agreement with Iran this year. The REAL threat to world safety and people will really feel safer.
But we know from many Bible prophesies that the Islamic peoples will do what they promise to do; attack Israel. That will trigger the Day the Lord will destroy them all. Ezekiel 7:14

Douggg said:
It will be after Gog/Magog,

Gog does not attack the new people living in all of the holy Land until they are settled and prosperous. They rely on the Lord for His protection and He delivers it. Ezekiel 38 to 39

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
This massive strike will mostly affect the Middle East region. Zephaniah 2:4 Everything there will die. Hosea 4:3, Jeremiah 9:10-12, Ezekiel 15:8
The other side of the earth and distant areas will mostly survive.

In these verses in Revelation 6 of the sixth seal does it say anything about a CME event destroying part of the earth's atmosphere?

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

keras said:
This belief is not Biblical and is never said to happen.

Happens in Revelation 12:10, the Jews, Israel, become Christians en masse. The voice of their brethren in heaven is the raptured church.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Of course, you don't believe that any human goes to heaven - so you have a problem of who the brethren are in heaven, saying with a loud voice.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
The first half of the final 7 years will be peaceful. THEN the AC conquers the holy people and sits in the Temple. Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:5-8

Do you believe that the Antichrist will be a Jew ?

keras · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
In these verses in Revelation 6 of the sixth seal does it say anything about a CME event destroying part of the earth's atmosphere?

The details of the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath are found in the 100 + Bible prophesies that describe it.
The atmosphere is not destroyed, just pushed aside by the strike of a billion tons of ejected plasma from the sun. This effect is well known and documented by scientists who study sunspots. Normally it is just our upper atmosphere affected; radio transmissions and auroras.
The big one prophesied, Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1, will break thru to the earths surface, devastating the area of the direct hit, but quickly passing on into outer space. A one day event.

Douggg said:
Happens in Revelation 12:10, the Jews, Israel, become Christians en masse. The voice of their brethren in heaven is the raptured church.

Rev 12:10 is an angel proclaiming the Lord's time of victory.
Your 'rapture to heaven' belief is a crock.

Douggg said:
Do you believe that the Antichrist will be a Jew ?

He possibly could be, but not necessarily so.
The President of the USA could easily be a Jew.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
The details of the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath are found in the 100 + Bible prophesies that describe it.
The atmosphere is not destroyed, just pushed aside by the strike of a billion tons of ejected plasma from the sun. This effect is well known and documented by scientists who study sunspots. Normally it is just our upper atmosphere affected; radio transmissions and auroras.
The big one prophesied, Isaiah 30:26a, Malachi 4:1, will break thru to the earths surface, devastating the area of the direct hit, but quickly passing on into outer space. A one day event.

keras, there is no parting of the earth's atmosphere in Revelation 6:12-17. It is the stars that are moved.

And besides that, a CME does not affect the other stars - which are light years away.

The parting of the cosmos, the stars, is by God's mighty power.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
Rev 12:10 is an angel proclaiming the Lord's time of victory. Your 'rapture to heaven' belief is a crock.

It is "our" brethren. A multitude.

Angels are not our brethren. They are not humans. They are a different set of created beings.

The ones in Revelation 12:10 have brethren, humans, in heaven.

keras · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
keras, there is no parting of the earth's atmosphere in Revelation 6:12-17. It is the stars that are moved.

Revelation 6:14 and Isaiah 34:4 are plainly stated prophesies. The sky, our atmosphere will be separated, pushed aside by the mass of a Coronal Mass Ejection. The earth will be moved, but not the distant stars.

Douggg said:
It is "our" brethren. A multitude.
Angels are not our brethren. They are not humans. They are a different set of created beings.
The ones in Revelation 12:10 have brethren, humans, in heaven.

Angels believe in Jesus too.
Why would that angel proclaim on earth; the rightful rule of Jesus to the human Christians, if they were with him in heaven?
If 'rapture' believers can't find better proofs than that weak one, their belief is very tenuous and simply unsupportable.

JulieB67 · Dec 29, 2021

Marilyn C said:
t wasn`t until the Lord ascended and became Head of His Body, by the Father, that then He gave the revelation to the Apostle Paul. (Eph. 1: 20 - 23, 3: 1 - 7)

Paul was a second witness to Christ's teachings in the gospels about his second coming. Both say beware that we are not deceived. And Paul very specifically says our gathering back to him (day of the Lord) will not happen until the falling away (apostasy) and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Christ says if they say Christ is here or there "don't" believe it. Christ does not return until the 7th trumpet and Paul teaches this as well. The last trump (farthest out in the Greek) and the trump of God are the 7th. We know from Revelation that the 7th is the last.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
Revelation 6:14 and Isaiah 34:4 are plainly stated prophesies. The sky, our atmosphere will be separated, pushed aside by the mass of a Coronal Mass Ejection. The earth will be moved, but not the distant stars.

There will a great earthquake in Revelation 6:12, first. Then the sun turned black. And the moon becomes as blood. And then after the (second) heaven the cosmos departs as scroll rolled up, every mountain and island are moved out of their places.

It is the stars that are rolled up like a scroll, parting, so that them on the earth can see Jesus before the throne of God.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The earth's atmosphere is not what keeps the third heaven not viewable, but the black space of the universe containing all of the stars.

keras said:
Angels believe in Jesus too.
Why would that angel proclaim on earth; the rightful rule of Jesus to the human Christians, if they were with him in heaven?
If 'rapture' believers can't find better proofs than that weak one, their belief is very tenuous and simply unsupportable.

If it were the angels with the loud voice, it would have said "men" instead of "our brethren".

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Also them with the load voice associate the kingdom of God as being the kingdom of our God. It is the raptured church in heaven with the loud voice.

Marilyn C · Dec 29, 2021

JulieB67 said:
Paul was a second witness to Christ's teachings in the gospels about his second coming. Both say beware that we are not deceived. And Paul very specifically says our gathering back to him (day of the Lord) will not happen until the falling away (apostasy) and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Christ says if they say Christ is here or there "don't" believe it. Christ does not return until the 7th trumpet and Paul teaches this as well. The last trump (farthest out in the Greek) and the trump of God are the 7th. We know from Revelation that the 7th is the last.

Hi Julie,

Thank you for your comments. Just a few thoughts. When the Lord was talking about His return to the Jews it was concerning His return to deliver them.

However later, when He ascended to the Father He was made Head of the Body which He is now building and maturing. It is to the Body He tells that He will come for them before the Day of the Lord, (& trib,). Our trumpet call is God`s final call, (voice, Rev. 1: 10. 4:1), while to Israel the trumpets are to do with their Feast of Trumpets - a call to repentance before the Day of Atonement.

regards, Marilyn.

keras · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
There will a great earthquake in Revelation 6:12, first. Then the sun turned black. And the moon becomes as blood. And then after the (second) heaven the cosmos departs as scroll rolled up, every mountain and island are moved out of their places.

It is the stars that are rolled up like a scroll, parting, so that them on the earth can see Jesus before the throne of God.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The earth's atmosphere is not what keeps the third heaven not viewable, but the black space of the universe containing all of the stars.

If it were the angels with the loud voice, it would have said "men" instead of "our brethren".

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Also them with the load voice associate the kingdom of God as being the kingdom of our God. It is the raptured church in heaven with the loud voice.

Douggg, I have explained what a CME does, you can check the details on google. But you have your own ideas, so be it.

A 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is not proved until you provide scriptures of when, and why God will do that.
We Christians have the Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20. When was or will; that be revoked?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
It is not now that the world is saying peace and safety. The latest is the Russians are threatening to invade the Ukraine.

You are taking 1 Thessalonians 5:3 completely out of context. It has absolutely nothing to do with the world saying peace and safety in terms of the world being a peaceful and safe place.

When Paul indicated that they will say "peace and safety" and then sudden destruction would come upon them, the context is about those who think they are SPIRITUALLY at peace and safe when in reality they are SPIRITUALLY sleeping and unaware of their SPIRITUAL status of being in SPIRITUAL darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Notice how Paul contrasts believers who are not in darkness spiritually and are instead "the children of light" with unbelievers who are in spiritual darkness. And he said "let us not sleep, as do others; but les us watch and be sober". The others, which are unbelievers, are spiritually sleeping and not watching what is going on spiritually which results in them being in spiritual darkness. They are deceived and think that they are at peace and are safe spiritually, but they are not. Because of their rejection of Christ they are not at peace and safe spiritually at all. If they don't repent before Christ comes then they will have "sudden destruction" come down upon them from which "they shall not escape".

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
Douggg, I have explained what a CME does, you can check the details on google. But you have your own ideas, so be it.

I am not taking issues over what a CME is. I am pointing out that there is nothing in Revelation 6 about the earth's atmosphere being altered, or parted.

keras said:
A 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is not proved until you provide scriptures of when, and why God will do that.

The rapture to heaven is God's way of removing Christians from the world to not have to go through the time of God's wrath which will be poured out during the great tribulation.

keras said:
We Christians have the Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20. When was or will; that be revoked?

I don't know why you are bringing that up, but the answer is in Luke 24:47.

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

keras · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
I am not taking issues over what a CME is. I am pointing out that there is nothing in Revelation 6 about the earth's atmosphere being altered, or parted.

'rolled up like a scroll', was the best way the ancient prophets could describe what will happen.
There are diagrams that show how the pressure wave of a big CME will push apart our atmosphere at the point of contact, forming a long tail on the other side of the earth. This effect will last for only a short duration.

Douggg said:
The rapture to heaven is God's way of removing Christians from the world to not have to go through the time of God's wrath which will be poured out during the great tribulation.

A complete reversal of what the Bible actually says: we must endure until the end.
The idea of a rapture removal to heaven is a straight out Satanic lie and those who choose to believe it are deceived, to their disgrace.

Douggg said:
I don't know why you are bring that up, but the answer is in Luke 24:47.

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Your reply confirms my contention of the Great Commission being in force until Jesus Returns.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
'rolled up like a scroll', was the best way the ancient prophets could describe what will happen.
There are diagrams that show how the pressure wave of a big CME will push apart our atmosphere at the point of contact, forming a long tail on the other side of the earth. This effect will last for only a short duration.

keras, even if the earth's atmosphere were completely removed that would not account for the stars to appear to fall to the horizon. And it would not make any difference of the inhabitants of the earth being able to see Jesus, who is in the third heaven.

keras · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
keras, even if the earth's atmosphere were completely removed that would not account for the stars to appear to fall to the horizon. And it would not make any difference of the inhabitants of the earth being able to see Jesus, who is in the third heaven.

The 'stars' fall to the earth. Rev 6:13
So they cannot be and are not; anything to do with the distant stars.
They will be our thousands of satellites, crashing back to the earth.

No one sees Jesus during the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. People will scramble for cover and will cry out to be hidden from the approaching mass of superheated Hydrogen Plasma. The moon will shine bright red.

ewq1938 · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
The 'stars' fall to the earth. Rev 6:13
So they cannot be and are not; anything to do with the distant stars.
They will be our thousands of satellites, crashing back to the earth.

Stars are a metaphor for angels. The 6th seal describes the events of the second coming and Christ comes with angels so metaphorically it would be a huge amount of angels coming down:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Angels are figuratively called stars. When speaking in literal terms John used "angels". When speaking in figurative terms John used "stars".

Here is an example:

Rev_9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Here a star that is referred to as a "him" is given the key to the pit. Literal stars don't used keys but an angel does. This same angel with the same key is here:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

He has the key in his hand because he was given that key back at the 5th trump.

Angels are called stars in the OT also:

Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Barnes:

When the morning-stars - There can be little doubt that angelic beings are intended here, though some have thought that the stars literally are referred to, and that they seemed to unite in a chorus of praise when another world was added to their number. The Vulgate renders it, astra matutina, morning-stars; the Septuagint, ??´te e??e??´???a? a?´st?a hote egene¯the¯nai astra - “ when the stars were made:” the Chaldee, “the stars of the zephyr,” or “morning” - ??? ?????. The comparison of a prince, a monarch, or an angel, with a star, is not uncommon; compare the notes at Isa. 14. The expression “the morning-stars” is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase “sons of God” in the other member of the verse.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

keras said:
The 'stars' fall to the earth. Rev 6:13
So they cannot be and are not; anything to do with the distant stars.
They will be our thousands of satellites, crashing back to the earth.

At sunset, the sun goes down over the horizon, not actually settling on the earth.

Satelites ? really? How big do you think a satellite is ?

keras · Dec 30, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Stars are a metaphor for angels.

This idea is illogical.
The description of the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, in over 100 Bible prophesies, simply does not allow for a mass of angels to come to the earth at that time.
Barnes; like all the Commentators up until now, could not know the truths of the Prophetic Word. Daniel 12:9

Douggg said:
At sunset, the sun goes down over the horizon, not actually settling on the earth.

Do I have this right? You think the entire cosmos will split and the starry universe will go down below our horizon.

So will those on the other side of the world, as I am in New Zealand; will get to see the entire starry host and in Israel; a blank sky?
Sounds like you need a flat earth. And your head read.

Douggg said:
Satelites ? really? How big do you think a satellite is ?

Maybe a few tons, but even a small object creates a fireball as it speeds back to the ground.

ewq1938 · Dec 30, 2021

keras said:
This idea is illogical.
The description of the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, in over 100 Bible prophesies, simply does not allow for a mass of angels to come to the earth at that time.

Of course it does. Didn't I already prove it by citing a verse saying angels come with Christ at his second coming? The 6th seal is describing that same second coming so yes, a great number of "stars" (angels) will be seen coming from the sky with Jesus.

The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Pre-tribulation.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Amillennialist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

I love you three.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

I love you three.

Similar threads