The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

Spiritual Jew

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You are splitting up one event. The two happen simultaneously. Our gathering back to him happens at the coming of Christ. We can't gather back unless he's coming. And that's the subject from 1st Thess 4/5 and he brings up the subject again in 2nd Thessalonians.
Exactly. It's unfortunate that a chapter break was placed between the end of 1 Thess 4 and beginning of 1 Thess 5 because I think that contributes to people thinking Paul was talking about two different events. But, from 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 Paul is talking about one event and he contrasts what will happen to believers and unbelievers on the day that event occurs.
 
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Douggg

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JulieB67

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Exactly. It's unfortunate that a chapter break was placed between the end of 1 Thess 4 and beginning of 1 Thess 5 because I think that contributes to people thinking Paul was talking about two different events. But, from 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 Paul is talking about one event and he contrasts what will happen to believers and unbelievers on the day that event occurs.

I know. Of all the places to start a new chapter. And by doing so many don't realize Paul is continuing the same subject/train of thought.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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This passage does not say He will come to receive us unto Himself and then go to heaven after that, so this is not a valid answer to my question.

So, again, why would we meet Him in the air and then be taken to heaven after that? Why not just meet Him in heaven if that's where we ended up, anyway? I can't see any purpose in meeting Him in the air if we're just going to be brought to heaven after that. Meeting Him in the air seems completely pointless in that case.
 
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Marilyn C

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This passage does not say He will come to receive us unto Himself and then go to heaven after that, so this is not a valid answer to my question.

So, again, why would we meet Him in the air and then be taken to heaven after that? Why not just meet Him in heaven if that's where we ended up, anyway? I can't see any purpose in meeting Him in the air if we're just going to be brought to heaven after that. Meeting Him in the air seems completely pointless in that case.

Interesting question. Do you know the way to ...San Jose? (or whatever that song was). Meaning who knows how to get to the third heaven.

We know that when the Lord comes He brings the spirits of those `asleep` in Him, they go to the grave, rise with new bodies as we do too, and then the whole Body meets the Lord in the air and connects to the Head, (physically), and we follow the Lord through into the invisible realm. (Col. 1: 16)
 
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ewq1938

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The Sixth Seal is in no way the Return of Jesus.

It describes the return of Christ from the perspective of the unsaved. It matches the second coming description by Christ as well:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The same events are described regarding the return of Christ.

the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light = the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth = And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken = the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together

hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains = all the tribes of the earth mourn




Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The same events are described regarding the return of Christ.

signs in the sun, and in the moon = the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

and in the stars = And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

the powers of heaven shall be shaken = the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together

and upon the earth distress of nations = all the tribes of the earth mourn


Men's hearts failing them for fear = all the tribes of the earth mourn

For the great day of his wrath is come = And then shall they see the Son of man coming
 
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ewq1938

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Julie, you are putting the church in the great tribulation when God's wrath will be poured out onto the world.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, the church is not appointed to God's wrath.


The Great Tribulation is the wrath of satan against the church, not God's wrath. God's wrath comes at the 7th trump, Revelation 11.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The Great Tribulation is the wrath of satan against the church, not God's wrath. God's wrath comes at the 7th trump, Revelation 11.


The Great Tribulation is a trail or testing for God's people (in the church - not the world) as Satan battles with the Two Witnesses in church with his army of false prophets and christs while deceive the rest of the church who have no yet sealed of God (Revelation 9). It is God's Wrath upon His unfaithful church as He loosened Satan and use him as a tool of judgment upon her. After this, after the hour of judgment of Babylon the Great (unfaithful church) is finished, Christ will return and judge Satan and the unbelieving world at Second Coming.
 
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ewq1938

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It is God's Wrath upon His unfaithful church as He loosened Satan and use him as a tool of judgment upon her.

It's satan's wrath not God's wrath. We are told that in Revelation 12 and we are told that God's wrath starts at the 7th trump, Revelation 11.

God allows this to happen just as he allowed satan to harm Job and his family. It was not God's wrath against Job though. God spends many chapters admonishing Job for thinking God was punishing him. It's the same error to think God is wrathful against members of his own church. Truth be told, the"unfaithful church" commits Apostasy and join satan in persecution of God's "true church".

God's wrath against satan and the Apostates etc will happen once the great tribulation against Christians has ended, at the second coming.
 
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TribulationSigns

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It's satan's wrath not God's wrath. We are told that in Revelation 12 and we are told that God's wrath starts at the 7th trump, Revelation 11.

God allows this to happen just as he allowed satan to harm Job and his family. It was not God's wrath against Job though. God spends many chapters admonishing Job for thinking God was punishing him. It's the same error to think God is wrathful against members of his own church. Truth be told, the"unfaithful church" commits Apostasy and join satan in persecution of God's "true church".

God's wrath against satan and the Apostates etc will happen once the great tribulation against Christians has ended, at the second coming.

You got it all confused. It is indeed God's wrath upon His unfaithful congregation by using Satan and his army upon her.

Rev 18:8-10
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

The mighty city is unfaithful congregation of God where false prophets and christs rule. The Elect is NOT under wrath of God AS LONG AS they hear God's command to come out of her, just like Lot and his family taken out of the city by God.

Rev 18:4-5
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

And Lot's city was Sodom right? God used it as an example for His New Testament congregation as a great city where Two Witnesses can be found!

Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Not physical city of Sodom. Not a physical city of Jerusalem in the Middle East, but the Great city where Two Witnesses preaches the Gospel has become SPIRITUALLY like Sodom BECAUSE of false prophets and christs with their abominations. This is where God has called His people to come out of her to avoid taking her plagues. Of course God wrath is upon His unfaithful congregation just like He did with Old Testament congregation as an example! And yes it is Satan's wrath upon unfaithful city because of her representation of God's Kingdom, thinking he is winning but not aware that God is using him - - for a short season!

It's satan's wrath not God's wrath. We are told that in Revelation 12

Revelation 12 was when Dragon was trying to stop woman (congregation of Israel) as she fleeing from Israel to the rest of the world (i.e. into a wilderness where the world is without water of Gospel so she can nourish it with Gospel. After she fled, dragon was wrath with woman and goes after Christians, the remnant of her seed, all over the world for the past 2,000 years, including us.
 
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ewq1938

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After she fled, dragon was wrath with woman and goes after Christians, the remnant of her seed, all over the world for the past 2,000 years, including us.


No, that's a future war known as the Great Tribulation. It hasn't started yet but we could possibly be in the time period that precedes it.
 
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Marilyn C

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Why do you then say the Body of Christ only began when the apostle Paul was saved, in the middle of Acts?

And you clearly separate Israel from the Body of Christ.

Hi Guojing,

I think I said that the REVELATION of the Body of Christ was given to the Apostle Paul. However people became Christians prior to that Revelation. It`s just that the understanding of these new `called out ones` wasn`t known.

The focus straight after Pentecost was that Jesus was Lord and the Messiah. (Acts 2: 36) That truth had to be established first for Jews and Gentiles. Later we see when Peter went to the house of Cornelius and saw the Holy Spirit fall upon them, Peter declared, `Jesus Christ is Lord of all.` (Acts 10: 36)

Peter however, as we know tried to get the Gentiles to act like Jews, (as in OT times). (Gal. 2: 11 - 14) And as you know Peter and the other 11 disciples did not have the full revelation of God`s purposes - the Body of Christ which was revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Hope that is more helpful. Marilyn.
 
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Guojing

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Hi Guojing,

I think I said that the REVELATION of the Body of Christ was given to the Apostle Paul. However people became Christians prior to that Revelation. It`s just that the understanding of these new `called out ones` wasn`t known.

The focus straight after Pentecost was that Jesus was Lord and the Messiah. (Acts 2: 36) That truth had to be established first for Jews and Gentiles. Later we see when Peter went to the house of Cornelius and saw the Holy Spirit fall upon them, Peter declared, `Jesus Christ is Lord of all.` (Acts 10: 36)

Peter however, as we know tried to get the Gentiles to act like Jews, (as in OT times). (Gal. 2: 11 - 14) And as you know Peter and the other 11 disciples did not have the full revelation of God`s purposes - the Body of Christ which was revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Hope that is more helpful. Marilyn.

Thanks, when you said "However people became Christians prior to that Revelation", you are saying those in the 4 gospels, Martha for example, are also in the Body of Christ?
 
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Marilyn C

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Thanks, when you said "However people became Christians prior to that Revelation", you are saying those in the 4 gospels, Martha for example, are also in the Body of Christ?

Mmm I don`t think so for they are of the Israeli purpose, as we know the 12 disciples are too.
 
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Guojing

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Mmm I don`t think so for they are of the Israeli purpose, as we know the 12 disciples are too.

So when you said
I think I said that the REVELATION of the Body of Christ was given to the Apostle Paul. However people became Christians prior to that Revelation. It`s just that the understanding of these new `called out ones` wasn`t known.

What exactly did you mean there, when you use the connecting term "however"?

When people for example Martha, believe in the gospel of the kingdom, that Jesus is their Messiah, are they members of the Body of Christ, or to the nation of Israel?
 
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Marilyn C

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So when you said

What exactly did you mean there, when you use the connecting term "however"?

When people for example Martha, believe in the gospel of the kingdom, that Jesus is their Messiah, are they members of the Body of Christ, or to the nation of Israel?

We read in Acts 2: 40 - 47 that the believers were gathering together as believers in Jesus as Lord & Messiah. They were Jews for they met in the Temple, however they `broke bread` and `continued steadfastly in the Apostle`s doctrine,` (of Christ as Saviour and Lord). And it was God who `added to the church, (called out ones) daily those who were being saved.`

Those in Jesus` time were looking for their Messiah, and many did believe He was Israel`s Messiah. That was the ONLY revelation known at that time. Thus the people who looked to Jesus as their Messiah would be included in Israel`s inheritance of ruler of the nations in the NHNE.
 
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Guojing

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We read in Acts 2: 40 - 47 that the believers were gathering together as believers in Jesus as Lord & Messiah. They were Jews for they met in the Temple, however they `broke bread` and `continued steadfastly in the Apostle`s doctrine,` (of Christ as Saviour and Lord). And it was God who `added to the church, (called out ones) daily those who were being saved.`

Those in Jesus` time were looking for their Messiah, and many did believe He was Israel`s Messiah. That was the ONLY revelation known at that time. Thus the people who looked to Jesus as their Messiah would be included in Israel`s inheritance of ruler of the nations in the NHNE.

So do you agree that, until Paul was saved, no one could be in the Body of Christ?

Those in Jesus time, if they believe that Christ is their Messiah, are part of the remnant of Israel, aka true Israel?
 
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Marilyn C

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So do you agree that, until Paul was saved, no one could be in the Body of Christ?

Those in Jesus time, if they believe that Christ is their Messiah, are part of the remnant of Israel, aka true Israel?

No. People were saved into the Body of Christ before Paul. Note Barnabas (an Apostle)was and Andronicus and Julia, `my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the Apostles, who ALSO WERE IN CHRIST BEFORE ME.` (Rom. 16: 7)
 
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