What are the "Sabbaths," "New Moons," and "Feasts"?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 26, 2021

HIM said:
No you have not you left the passage to try to explain your view. Fasting is not mentioned. That is all that is to it.

Unless You have something within the passage like the word fasting or such I am done with this.

LOL, abstaining from food or eating only a certain food on certain days...IS FASTING...within the context of those passages! if you can't see that, I can't help you...

HIM · Dec 26, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LOL, abstaining from food or eating only a certain food on certain days...IS FASTING...within the context of those passages! if you can't see that, I can't help you...

Funny? Nothing funny about people we think are mislead and that are misleading. And no you can’t only Jesus can but we have to be willing

pescador · Dec 26, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
i am not making anything up....you just have no understanding of the context...eating or not eating...regarding or not regarding days...very clear...fasting is a tool and there should not be disagreements regarding it...sorry if you can't see that...

Jews fasted twice a week, on Mondays and Thursdays (Luke 18:12). Gentile converts continued the tradition but observed it on Wednesdays and Fridays. The Didache chapter 8 says “But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day (Wednesday) and the Preparation (Friday).” Fasting is not allowed on the Sabbath.

Two comments: 1) Luke 18:12 was spoken by the self-righteous Pharisee, not by Jesus. 2) The Didache isn't the Bible, it is a brief anonymous early Christian treatise written in Koine Greek.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 26, 2021

HIM said:
Funny? Nothing funny about people we think are mislead and that are misleading. And no you can’t only Jesus can but we have to be willing

Well I hope He helps you then...

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 26, 2021

pescador said:
Two comments: 1) Luke 18:12 was spoken by the self-righteous Pharisee, not by Jesus. 2) The Didache isn't the Bible, it is a brief anonymous early Christian treatise written in Koine Greek.

Yet both prove my point regarding fasting (Jews and Christians) in that era...

Kilk1 · Dec 27, 2021

Torah Keeper said:
The problem with 1 Corinthians 7:25 is that it's either a commandment from God or it isn't. Paul said it isn't. So then we are left to question "What else of Paul's writings is not a commandment from God?"

With 1 Corinthians 14:37, Paul was on the topic of women being silent in church. He said this was commanded by God as it is written in the Torah that women are in subjection to men and not to lead the church. (Earlier in the chapter). There was never a Priestess at the Temple. The Priest's wife(wives?) was just that and nothing more. Not like today where there are co-preachers of husband and wife teams with equal authority. So I agree with Paul that women keeping silent in church is Scriptural (let the men lead). But to take 1 Corinthians 14:37 and apply it to everything Paul wrote would contradict the very same letter earlier in 1 Corinthians 7:25.

Which of the following most closely matches what you think of Paul's writings:

1. Everything he said should be taken as the commandments of God unless he tells us a certain part is his opinion.
2. Everything he said is his opinion unless he tells us certain parts are the commandments of God.
3. We have to make our best guess on which sections are commanded by God and which parts are just Paul's opinion.

If neither of the three statements above sound like what you believe, could you elaborate? Thank you!

Kilk1 · Dec 27, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
No. That is the weekly Sabbath

We agree there, then, haha! Where in the Old Testament can I find the handwriting of ordinances that mentions the now-obsolete Sabbaths?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 27, 2021

Kilk1 said:
We agree there, then, haha! Where in the Old Testament can I find the handwriting of ordinances that mentions the now-obsolete Sabbaths?

I think you do not understand the context of the passage

Kilk1 · Dec 27, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
I think you do not understand the context of the passage

I believe you're saying that Colossians 2:16-17 teaches that "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" are no longer required because they're part of the handwriting of ordinances. Am I understanding your position correctly (I might not be)?

If I am understanding your position correctly, then festivals, new moons, and sabbaths are written in the handwriting of ordinances. What is the handwriting of ordinances, and where within the handwriting of ordinances can "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" be found?

Torah Keeper · Dec 27, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Which of the following most closely matches what you think of Paul's writings:

1. Everything he said should be taken as the commandments of God unless he tells us a certain part is his opinion.
2. Everything he said is his opinion unless he tells us certain parts are the commandments of God.
3. We have to make our best guess on which sections are commanded by God and which parts are just Paul's opinion.

If neither of the three statements above sound like what you believe, could you elaborate? Thank you!

I am not really sure how much of Paul's writings are his own opinion, and how much is divinely inspired. It's something I have been bothered by for years. I've seen Christians who are anti-Pauline, claiming Paul was a false apostle. I don't go that far. But since Paul said at least some of his writings were not commanded by God, I am left to wonder how much?

I've read a lot of writings by early bishops and I see nothing heretical in most of them. They could be in the Bible and would sometimes align with the Scriptures better than Paul's letters.

I think a lot has been removed from the NT. Keeping Paul's letters in but throwing out Acts of John, seems unusual to me. Is it because Acts of John identifies the Lord's day as the 7th day? Is our modern NT biased?

It is as if halfway through Acts of the Apostles, suddenly it was all about Paul and no one else.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 27, 2021

Kilk1 said:
I believe you're saying that Colossians 2:16-17 teaches that "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" are no longer required because they're part of the handwriting of ordinances. Am I understanding your position correctly (I might not be)?

If I am understanding your position correctly, then festivals, new moons, and sabbaths are written in the handwriting of ordinances. What is the handwriting of ordinances, and where within the handwriting of ordinances can "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" be found?

No. You are not understanding what he is saying. Colossians 2:13-15...sin is the transgression of the law...the debt was cancelled...the curse of the law removed and nailed to the cross...He became a curse for us...

Kilk1 · Dec 28, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
No. You are not understanding what he is saying. Colossians 2:13-15...sin is the transgression of the law...the debt was cancelled...the curse of the law removed and nailed to the cross...He became a curse for us...

Okay, but I have two questions:

What is the handwriting of ordinances?
What does it have to do with food, drink, festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths?

Those are my two questions. If I don't know the answers, I'm going to have trouble knowing what Paul's teaching here. Do you have answers to my two questions?

Kilk1 · Dec 28, 2021

Torah Keeper said:
I am not really sure how much of Paul's writings are his own opinion, and how much is divinely inspired. It's something I have been bothered by for years. I've seen Christians who are anti-Pauline, claiming Paul was a false apostle. I don't go that far. But since Paul said at least some of his writings were not commanded by God, I am left to wonder how much?

I've read a lot of writings by early bishops and I see nothing heretical in most of them. They could be in the Bible and would sometimes align with the Scriptures better than Paul's letters.

I think a lot has been removed from the NT. Keeping Paul's letters in but throwing out Acts of John, seems unusual to me. Is it because Acts of John identifies the Lord's day as the 7th day? Is our modern NT biased?

It is as if halfway through Acts of the Apostles, suddenly it was all about Paul and no one else.

I'd say the fact that he clarified that a few statements in 1 Corinthians (and, to my knowledge, nowhere else) are not commandments, but rather advice, proves that such was the exception. Even then, he never said it was uninspired advice. Even when giving such advice in 1 Corinthians 7, Paul points out that although it's advice, it still seems the case that Paul had "the Spirit of God" in giving this advice (1 Corinthians 7:40).

Peter wrote "that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20-21, NKJV). Do you agree with Peter that Paul's writings are Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16)?

Kilk1 · Dec 28, 2021

Didn't mean to type a second post here. Ignore this.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 28, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Okay, but I have two questions:

What is the handwriting of ordinances?

What does it have to do with food, drink, festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths?

Those are my two questions. If I don't know the answers, I'm going to have trouble knowing what Paul's teaching here. Do you have answers to my two questions?

My last post answered your question.

Kilk1 · Dec 28, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
My last post answered your question.

You last post said, "No. You are not understanding what he is saying. Colossians 2:13-15...sin is the transgression of the law...the debt was cancelled...the curse of the law removed and nailed to the cross...He became a curse for us..."

This answers what sin is; it's the transgression of law. It does not, however, answer my two questions. Saying the debt was canceled may partly answer my first question, assuming you're saying that "the debt" is the handwriting of ordinances. Still, I don't know for sure how to identify what the handwriting of ordinances looks like, and it doesn't appear my second question is answered: Where within the handwriting of ordinances do we find festivals, new moons, and sabbaths.

Does the handwriting of ordinances command to keep festivals, new moons, and sabbaths? (After all, Jesus taking it out of the way is connected to the conclusion of verses 16-17.) And are Leviticus 23, Leviticus 24, and Numbers 28 part of the handwriting of ordinances since they mention festivals, new moons, and sabbaths?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 28, 2021

Kilk1 said:
You last post said, "No. You are not understanding what he is saying. Colossians 2:13-15...sin is the transgression of the law...the debt was cancelled...the curse of the law removed and nailed to the cross...He became a curse for us..."

This answers what sin is; it's the transgression of law. It does not, however, answer my two questions. Saying the debt was canceled may partly answer my first question, assuming you're saying that "the debt" is the handwriting of ordinances. Still, I don't know for sure how to identify what the handwriting of ordinances looks like, and it doesn't appear my second question is answered: Where within the handwriting of ordinances do we find festivals, new moons, and sabbaths.

Does the handwriting of ordinances command to keep festivals, new moons, and sabbaths? (After all, Jesus taking it out of the way is connected to the conclusion of verses 16-17.) And are Leviticus 23, Leviticus 24, and Numbers 28 part of the handwriting of ordinances since they mention festivals, new moons, and sabbaths?

See, you think the law was taken out of the way because you still do not understand what I wrote. The law is not the debt...the curse is...so yes, what I wrote answered your questions...

Kilk1 · Dec 29, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
See, you think the law was taken out of the way because you still do not understand what I wrote. The law is not the debt...the curse is...so yes, what I wrote answered your questions...

I see. So the law is still in effect, just not the debt, in your view. However, doesn't Paul say that since the handwriting of ordinances is taken out of the way, now you don't need anyone to judge you in festivals, new moons, and sabbaths? After saying it's taken out of the way, he then says, "So let no one judge you ..." (Colossians 2:16, NKJV, emphasis mine).

Isn't the handwriting of ordinances tied to the festivals, new moons, and sabbaths, then? How does not having debt relate to not being judged about festivals, new moons, and sabbaths?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 29, 2021

Kilk1 said:
I see. So the law is still in effect, just not the debt, in your view. However, doesn't Paul say that since the handwriting of ordinances is taken out of the way, now you don't need anyone to judge you in festivals, new moons, and sabbaths? After saying it's taken out of the way, he then says, "So let no one judge you ..." (Colossians 2:16, NKJV, emphasis mine).

Isn't the handwriting of ordinances tied to the festivals, new moons, and sabbaths, then? How does not having debt relate to not being judged about festivals, new moons, and sabbaths?

Of course it is. Is it still a sin to murder? To steal? Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. Death is the curse of the law. The curse was hung on the cross...taken out of the way...He became a curse for us...

throughfiierytrial · Dec 29, 2021

Torah Keeper said:
Yes I think they are the same in Colossians 2.

However I believe Colossians was written to newly converted gentiles, not born and bred Jews. So Paul is telling them not to let anyone judge them because they started to observe these days. Verse 16 also implies a change in diet.

Paul continued keeping the Sabbath and Moedim throughout the Book of Acts, even emphasizing the importance of doing so. And he gave advice for properly keeping Passover.

could you please post your citations from the book of Acts which point out Apostle Paul's advice on keeping the Sabbath?
Colossians points out not too keep these special days...they were only a shadow of things to come, the reality is found in Christ. The sentence begins with the word therefore...so one must read through the preceding passages to find this is an admonishment not to keep special days from OT...they are dead works.
Galations 4:9-11 sheds even more light on the matter saying...
9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

What are the "Sabbaths," "New Moons," and "Feasts"?

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