Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Timtofly · Dec 14, 2021

DavidPT said:
'This would mean no one is any longer reigning with Christ, not even the ones already allegedly reigning in heaven. It seems silly if the 1000 years are expired on earth, that they would still be underway in heaven. If the thousand year reign involves both earth and heaven, which I don't believe to be the case to begin with, but assuming they were, they would obviously be in sync not out of sync. IOW, when the thousand years begin on earth it also begins in heaven. When the thousand years end on earth it also ends in heaven. Would anyone argue, assuming this scenario, that the thousand year reigning begins in heaven before it even begins on the earth? Why would anyone then argue that when the thousand years end on earth they don't end in heaven as well? This would also mean when it's satan's little season back on earth it is also satan's little season in heaven, which of course makes zero sense, as if satan's little season has any relevance to anyone dwelling in heaven. satan's little season involves surrounding someone on earth, not someone in heaven instead.

Well one day with the Lord is 1000 years. I doubt a few hours with the Lord will not be that out of sync. Since no one is going to take 2 Peter 3:8 literally why think time in heaven is literally the same as on earth?

I agree that Satan being loosed has not much to do with bringing the 1000 years to a close. Why would that little season stop the reign of Christ?

Watching Fire coming down on one's enemies should not stop life in it's tracks. Life will go on till heaven and earth flee away, and then continue on in the new earth. No where does it state those alive on earth stand before the GWT. They will continue on into the new earth as nothing happened.

claninja · Dec 14, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
I'm so glad you posted that! I never even thought of Acts 4 being related to Revelation 19.

I love looking for Christ’s 1st advent in symbolic and apocalyptic passages! I think the similarities between the vision in revelation 19 and Christs fulfillment of psalm 2 are too similar to pass up.

Bob_1000 · Dec 14, 2021

claninja said:
I love looking for Christ’s 1st advent in symbolic and apocalyptic passages! I think the similarities between the vision in revelation 19 and Christs fulfillment of psalm 2 are too similar to pass up.

That post was very helpful for me. It’s like you can read things a hundred times and never pick up on something and then boom there it is and your like how did I not see that before.

claninja · Dec 14, 2021

DavidPT said:
Now that you bring this up I do tend to recall you bringing some of this up in the past, maybe in other threads or maybe even in this one. Though I can somewhat see the logic in some of this, I still don't feel you are making the proper connections. This of course is just an opinion and that opinions by themselves prove nothing one way or the other.

I know this is often interpreted as Christ’s 2nd coming, but it’s just too difficult for me to make the connection that hordes of human armies and kings will attempt to attack God when he comes down out of the clouds, especially since the gospels and epistles are silent on any kind of future attack by humanity on Christ at 2nd his coming.

what makes a better connection, imho, is to look when the gospels and epistles declare armies and nations and kings assembling against Christ. In this case, the book of acts declares it with the gentiles, Jews, Herod, and Pilate in chapter 4

claninja · Dec 14, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You have Satan’s little season happening before the thousand year. You relate Gog/Magog/Satan’s little season ... to the crucifixion of Christ and the thousand years to Christ’s resurrection. This is ridiculous.

Huh? Of course your straw man is ridiculous. This doesn’t even make sense.

jeffweedaman · Dec 14, 2021

claninja said:
I know this is often interpreted as Christ’s 2nd coming, but it’s just too difficult for me to make the connection that hordes of human armies and kings will attempt to attack God when he comes down out of the clouds, especially since the gospels and epistles are silent on any kind of future attack by humanity on Christ at 2nd his coming.

Not silent.
Jesus in Matt 16 Declares that Jesus comes in the glory of the father lol .

That is bigger than a supernova being witnessed by the inhabitants of the earth.

The sun would no longer shine and the moons light would no longer be visible because the great power and Glory of Jesus intervenes .....

in the glory of his Father, to put an end to all the madness...forever.

That is Amill.

Premill however have people surviving this massive event.
No element and therefore no flesh will survive the refining of Jesus coming in a flaming fire to eternally separate those who did not love the truth in this period of Gods patience and loving grace.., sovereign Grace.

2Thess 1.
The second coming is clearly the end

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

[/QUOTE]

Timtofly · Dec 14, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
A spiritual corpse.

Is that a demon?

What does a spirit look like without God?

Because that sounds like a demon to me.

Timtofly · Dec 14, 2021

DavidPT said:
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Apparently you think this---but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD---means that Joshua made that decision for them and that none of them had a choice in the matter. Maybe he said that because that is what they all individually decided to do, thus they were of one accord. Or maybe you are even correct that Joshua decided for them, I don't know. But even so---take the following for example

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

All of these individually decided to do these things. No one decided it for them. Even though they totaled 3000, it still involved each of them making that decision themselves. Even in this scenario it involved at least two parties. They themselves that were saved and Peter who led them to their salvation. Actually it involved more than two parties since it obviously involved the Spirit of God as well.

There is this as well: Acts 16:27-34

"And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."

claninja · Dec 14, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
Not silent.
Jesus in Matt 16 Declares that Jesus comes in the glory of the father lol .

That is bigger than a supernova being witnessed by the inhabitants of the earth.

The sun would no longer shine and the moons light would no longer be visible because the great power and Glory of Jesus intervenes .....

in the glory of his Father, to put an end to all the madness...forever.

That is Amill.

Premill however have people surviving this massive event.
No element and therefore no flesh will survive the refining of Jesus coming in a flaming fire to eternally separate those who did not love the truth in this period of Gods patience and loving grace.., sovereign Grace.

2Thess 1.
The second coming is clearly the end

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

none of these verses say hordes of armies and kings will gather together in order to attempt to battle Jesus as he descends out of the sky.

however, the NT does say that nations, kings, and rulers gathered together to crucify Christ. BUT Christ was triumphant by the cross unbeknownst to them.

Timtofly · Dec 14, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There's a message in those two verses. Jesus was speaking words that the Pharisees understood very well. What they could not understand was HIS WORD in those words and that's why Jesus said ye are of your father the devil. HIS WORDS are spiritual words hidden in the spoken or written words. HIS WORDS have no shape or form, they are inferred from the written or spoken words and that unspoken word is what the Pharisees couldn't understand because they were of their father the devil which is nothing more than saying that they weren't born from above. If they had been born from above then they would have understood HIS WORD in His speech.

The same illustration of John 8 could have just as easily been illustrated here:

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

The one's that walked away from Jesus over this saying were of their father the devil.... the firstborn or the flesh, or the natural birth. They heard Jesus say those words as they are written but they couldn't hear HIS WORD in those words. The bible is written this way from cover to cover.

Are all Americans, the spiritual children of the founding forefathers?

The devil is the father of what it was to be rebellious. Satan is the father of lies.

But sin and the spiritual condition of a sin nature all falls on Adam's one time disobedience.

That is what it means to be a father.

Bob_1000 · Dec 14, 2021

Timtofly said:
Are all Americans, the spiritual children of the founding forefathers?

The devil is the father of what it was to be rebellious. Satan is the father of lies.

But sin and the spiritual condition of a sin nature all falls on Adam's one time disobedience.

That is what it means to be a father.

Adam has nothing to do with it, if it would’ve been either you or myself we would’ve failed also... it’s our nature.

Timtofly · Dec 14, 2021

grafted branch said:
But to understand salvation a person has to understand they are a sinner and will receive death because of it.

If we can’t understand that in the NHNE then we are going to understand less of the scriptures than we do now. Would we even be able to recognize Christ as our Savior?

I’m not sure why you need this for your theology to work but it doesn’t make sense.

Are you saying Adam was not enough? That God only created a failed human to only have sin? That literally makes no sense.

Adam named all the animals. What human without an education would be willing to go out and study animals and give them all names?

There is literally not even going to be sin nor death because of a sinful nature in the next 1000 years, even before the NHNE. The NHNE is going to be totally different and all that will carry over is a single book called the Word of God.

DavidPT · Dec 14, 2021

claninja said:
none of these verses say hordes of armies and kings will gather together in order to attempt to battle Jesus as he descends out of the sky.

however, the NT does say that nations, kings, and rulers gathered together to crucify Christ. BUT Christ was triumphant by the cross unbeknownst to them.

Revelation 19 records Christ on a white horse that He exits heaven riding on, and wearing many crowns, where both are obviously not meaning in the literal sense. Revelation 19 records that He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself. How does any of that possibly connect with what you are trying to connect it with? Why would He need to have a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself, when they were trying to crucify Him? In what way would that be relevant at the time?

Edited to add. Something just crossed my mind.

Speaking of a name no one knows but the person themselves, the following gives a clue as to when that takes place. It takes place after one has overcome first. Therefore, and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself(Revelation 19:12)---is obviously meaning after He overcame first. Not before He overcame instead.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it .

Timtofly · Dec 14, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Adam has nothing to do with it, if it would’ve been either you or myself we would’ve failed also... it’s our nature.

It was not Adam's nature to fail. It was Adam's nature to obey.

The only reason we have a sin nature is because Adam disobeyed God, against his nature.

It was not Adam's nature to sin. Of course Adam had everything to do with whatever you think "it" is.

There was no sin before Adam disobeyed.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

No one has ever sinned like Adam did. Those before the Law of Moses, and those since, have not sinned like Adam, because Adam disobeyed God prior to sin being in the world. It was the single act of Adam, and not even Eve, that introduced sin and a sin nature into the world. Unless you do not accept Paul in Romans 5?

sovereigngrace · Dec 14, 2021

claninja said:
Huh? Of course your straw man is ridiculous. This doesn’t even make sense.

That is what you are teaching. See above.

Bob_1000 · Dec 15, 2021

Timtofly said:
It was not Adam's nature to fail. It was Adam's nature to obey.

The only reason we have a sin nature is because Adam disobeyed God, against his nature.

It was not Adam's nature to sin. Of course Adam had everything to do with whatever you think "it" is.

There was no sin before Adam disobeyed.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

No one has ever sinned like Adam did. Those before the Law of Moses, and those since, have not sinned like Adam, because Adam disobeyed God prior to sin being in the world. It was the single act of Adam, and not even Eve, that introduced sin and a sin nature into the world. Unless you do not accept Paul in Romans 5?

Your suggesting that Adam's sin was UNIQUE because Adam disobeyed God prior to sin being in the world but Eve did the exact same thing before Adam did it. That's not what made Adam's sin unique. Adam's sin was unique because he willfully and knowingly disobeyed God out of love for his wife so that his sacrifice could save Eve through child birth, the birth of Jesus.

I'm not saying Adam knew all of that, he probably didn't but he loved his wife so much that he was willing to die with her.

sovereigngrace · Dec 15, 2021

claninja said:
Huh? Of course your straw man is ridiculous. This doesn’t even make sense.

Not so. I asked:

1. When did the thousand years commence?
2. What triggered it?
3. What in reality results from it?
4. When does it end?
5. How does it end?

claninja said:

well, I agree that first resurrection (Christ’s resurrection) bound Satan and resulted in the saints becoming a royal priesthood and living and reigning. So not sure how i “totally miss” that.

1.) Christ’s resurrection (1st resurrection)

2.) Christ’s resurrection (1st resurrection)

3.) results in the saints presently being a royal priest and guarantees the future bodily resurrection of the saints where they will sit with Christ on his throne and reign over the nations. The saints reign with Christ forever, not a limited literal or symbolic period.

4.) the first resurrection was a one time event where Christ rose from the dead 2,000 years. Christ’s resurrection, which is the first resurrection, is not an ongoing event.

5.) when Christ rose from the dead, the first resurrection was fulfilled.

Click to expand...

I then asked:

1. When (time-wise) was Satan cast out of heaven to war against the saints (revelation 12:12)?
2. When (time-wise) was Satan hindering the gospel to the nations (2 Thessalonians 2:18), masquerading as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), Satan prowling and looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8), Satan leading many astray (1 Timothy 5:15), working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1), etc?
3. When (time-wise) is sin no longer able to draw power from the law?
4. When (time-wise) is Satan crushed?

claninja said:
i believe Gog/Magog/Satan’s little season. is related to the crucifixion of Christ, as he is the sacrifice on the mountains whose flesh we eat and blood we drink, and persecution of the church by the unbelieving Jews and gentiles of the Roman world...

You have Satan’s little season happening before the thousand year. You relate Gog/Magog/Satan’s little season ... to the crucifixion of Christ and the thousand years to Christ’s resurrection. This is ridiculous.

Timtofly · Dec 15, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Your suggesting that Adam's sin was UNIQUE because Adam disobeyed God prior to sin being in the world but Eve did the exact same thing before Adam did it. That's not what made Adam's sin unique. Adam's sin was unique because he willfully and knowingly disobeyed God out of love for his wife so that his sacrifice could save Eve through child birth, the birth of Jesus.

I'm not saying Adam knew all of that, he probably didn't but he loved his wife so much that he was willing to die with her.

Only human imagination. Eve did not disobey God. Adam did. The exchange between Satan and Eve was just like the humanistic rationale you just posted. Eve nor Adam died when Eve ate. If that had happened, then Adam would not have had to eat. They both would have been changed like God said. You think Adam ate out of pity. I think Adam ate, because nothing happened when Eve ate. If Adam had not eaten, life would have gone on as normal, and they would have seen that Satan lied. Eve did not gain any wisdom nor knowledge.

Bob_1000 · Dec 15, 2021

Timtofly said:
Only human imagination. Eve did not disobey God. Adam did. The exchange between Satan and Eve was just like the humanistic rationale you just posted. Eve nor Adam died when Eve ate. If that had happened, then Adam would not have had to eat. They both would have been changed like God said. You think Adam ate out of pity. I think Adam ate, because nothing happened when Eve ate. If Adam had not eaten, life would have gone on as normal, and they would have seen that Satan lied. Eve did not gain any wisdom nor knowledge.

According to Rom 5:14 Adam's actions were representing something Christ would do for his wife. If you don't agree with what I said then how do you think Adam was foreshadowing something Jesus would do for his wife?

DavidPT · Dec 15, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
I'm not saying Adam knew all of that, he probably didn't but he loved his wife so much that he was willing to die with her.

I'm not seeing what you two are discussing has to do with this thread, but that aside, I do fully agree with you here.

Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

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