Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Timtofly]

I appreciate you correcting that. You have a lot of great evidence in your post for Christ reigning presently and for believers being raised spiritually to be a royal priesthood presently. The only issue is your position of “souls” of dead believers going to heaven and reigning with Christ prior to the resurrection. This is where your evidence is lacking in the scriptural support department.

this is the crux of the issue. If you can provide scriptural evidence that souls go to heaven to reign with Christ prior to the resurrection, then you can definitely surmount the premil position.

The pre-mil position has Christ remaining on the earth instead of leaving again to return a third time. No one can prove Christ returns after this indefinite period of time conjured up by the amil with Scripture.

Pre-mil has always taught of a temple of God in Jerusalem reigned physically by Christ for a literal 1000 years, after a Second Coming. Why do other eschatological beliefs misrepresent the pre-mill position?

Pre-mill do not need to prove a return at the end of the 1000 years. There is none. Christ is already on earth. People on earth during this 1000 years do not rebel against an idea or theology. They rebel against the iron rod rule of Christ. They are instantly rewarded with Death. That is evident from the time of Adam's disobedience. Adam did indeed die the second he ate. He went from an incorruptible physical body to a corruptible physical body. That death was passed onto all his offspring through Seth.

The Cross afforded a spiritual birth into God's family, not a spiritual resurrection. Jesus in John 3 did not say, "Ye must be resurrected again". He said born again.

One is not resurrected spiritually. One is resurrected back into the original permanent incorruptible physical body, Adam was created with. Physical death is no longer being dead. The Cross removed physical death from Adam's punishment. Tasting death is not about this body dying. Tasting death is referring to the fact the soul would no longer be without a physical body. Death in the OT was without a physical body. Whether or not the soul has a form and recognizable or suffers torment is not the point of discussion. The lack of a physical body is death. More than that, this corruptible physical body is death. Even if this body could live 1000 years, it still is a body of death, not life.

The Resurrection in Revelation 20:4 can only be physical, because one would have to prove they were spiritually dead to have a spiritual resurrection. Since the Second Death is the Lake of Fire, these souls would be resurrected from the Lake of Fire to have spiritual life. Yet this resurrection was a first resurrection that even prevented the second death, not a resurrection from the second death. No where is the claim they had a second birth or spiritual birth. You all really need to get a handle on the definitions of what is physical and spiritual. It is not two different dimensions. It is what happened to Adam when he disobeyed, and why his offspring are like him.

Adam was stripped of his spirit, and separated from God. Adam was stripped of his incorruptible physical body, and given a corruptible physical body. Despite all the attempts of theology, including Solomon's theology, and the theology in Job, these basic principles still remain. We are only body and soul while alive on earth. We are body and soul in Paradise, after we leave earth. Those in sheol are only souls, because the physical body tasted death, and went back to dust. Not tasting death, is to have a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Why you all condemn yourself to the death of no body, is beyond me, when Jesus claims that many after the Cross would never taste death. That did not mean they would not loose this corruptible body. It means they would not loose a body at all. The soul would go from one body to the next.

Since Adam was banned from Paradise, we have been dead. The Cross did not change how we are born into death. The Cross changed the fact that this soul would go from death into life. And it would not have to wait 1900 years to do so, like some claim souls have been doing since the Cross. The soul has had a permanent incorruptible physical body waiting, and the thief on the Cross did not remain dead, but recieved eternal life that day, not still waiting until the Second Coming. Those from the OT came out of their graves, with eternal life, a first resurrection. Never to taste death again. And that resurrection was not the one found in Revelation 20:4 as Amil claim to kick off some indefinite intra advent period. It was an eternal life point for them. It was a first resurrection, because a first resurrection is physical not spiritual. It was the first first physical resurrection. The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is the physical resurrection of those who have yet to die during a future 42 month period. The Revelation 20:4 resurrection was not the OT redeemed being resurrected at the Cross. It was not even Christ's resurrection. It was Jesus as Prince having just defeated the final army of Adam's flesh and blood, along with Satan, the FP, and the beast, who was calling those beheaded out of the grave. Jesus as Messiah and Prince has been calling souls out of the grave since He called Lazarus just prior to the Cross event. It has been non stop. Revelation 20:4 is the last time He will call. There will be no more earth when the GWT empties out sheol and Death. No one is called out during that final 1000 years. The Scripture clearly states no one lives again during that period. Not sure why human theology tries to explain that verse away, to make it fit other verses taken out of context?

 

[sovereigngrace]

It takes at least two in order for anybody to be saved. The person themselves and Christ. Christ can't save anyone not wishing to be saved nor can anyone save themselves without Christ.

How can a corpse believe?

 

[DavidPT]

They rebel against the iron rod rule of Christ.

That's what I tend to conclude as well. It's what makes the most sense to me.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


These in verse 26 could be meaning the camp of saints meant in Revelation 20 since it won't just be Christ ruling them with a rod of iron, it will be overcomers as well.

 

[DavidPT]

How can a corpse believe?

Are you meaning a literal corpse, or one as in spiritually dead yet physically alive? If the former I'm not grasping the reason for the question.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How is it misrepresenting Amil if I tend to reason things according to what I think the texts are meaning, then comparing that with what Amils are concluding? I call it an attempt to try and debunk Amil, not misrepresent it.

It might be Premils that think that, and for good reason, and that being because it is true. Otherwise, why would the billions that satan sets out to deceive after he is loosed be the same ones that are already deceived during the thousand years? How did they manage to get deceived during the thousand years if the point as to why satan is cast into the pit to begin with, is because he has been deceiving the nations, thus this prevents him from deceiving the nation any longer?

SG is always saying Premils have a big satan and a little God, when that appears to be true of Amils rather than Premils. It is Amils that think, unless satan is bound the gospel will fail to get published throughout the world, as if to God satan is so powerful, that if He doesn't bind him in some manner, the gospel might fail to get spread throughout the entire planet. When I would think that the gospel manages to get spread throughout the entire planet regardless what satan and his minions try and do to prevent that from happening. And sometimes there is a price to pay. Some actually get martyred for trying to spread the gospel.

It is generalizing talking about the collective deception that was upon the Gentle people before the great commission. It is not talking about personal deception that comes from a sinner choosing to live in rebellion against God. It is a general description of the enlightened and favored state that the Gentiles are in today in regard to salvation.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Are you meaning a literal corpse, or one as in spiritually dead yet physically alive? If the former I'm not grasping the reason for the question.

A spiritual corpse.

 

[Timtofly]

In your rationale.

And you have no rationale? If the OP is not your rationale, but strictly Scripture, then even Premil agree on the Scripture. Yet your rationale does not agree with the Scripture in the OP.

Your rationale is based on changing Revelation 20 out of context to something it is not. The whole of Revelation is based on the same tense as found in chapter 20, yet your rationale is singling out this one chapter as a different tense from the rest of the book. Is all of Revelation in the same tense? Has all of Revelation been fulfilled in the first century?

 

[DavidPT]

What about the people who were in Joshua’s house, Joshua chose for them according to Joshua 24:15?

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Apparently you think this---but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD---means that Joshua made that decision for them and that none of them had a choice in the matter. Maybe he said that because that is what they all individually decided to do, thus they were of one accord. Or maybe you are even correct that Joshua decided for them, I don't know. But even so---take the following for example



Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


All of these individually decided to do these things. No one decided it for them. Even though they totaled 3000, it still involved each of them making that decision themselves. Even in this scenario it involved at least two parties. They themselves that were saved and Peter who led them to their salvation. Actually it involved more than two parties since it obviously involved the Spirit of God as well.

 

[Timtofly]

devils have no faith or repentance David..., unlike you and me. Its all about ongoing faith.., and repentance in our time of need.

Did a demon ever have faith or repentance? If a demon is fully aware of the facts, unlike most souls alive on earth, then perhaps the spirits of humans are what forms demons. As demons inhabit and control the soul just like the Holy Spirit should. A spirit is the glory of the soul, not it's downfall. If a spirit can no longer provide glory, it is demonized and only wants destruction of the soul. You are correct, it cannot have faith nor repent. A demon is in a situation of no longer capable of Redemption. The same position of a reprobate soul. So explain to me which comes first? A reprobate soul or the spirit turned into a demonic force of corruption?

NOSAS have a point in why would a soul become reprobate in the first place. They have to know the truth to keep rejecting the truth. The issue is the point did they ever recieve the truth? If they never recieved the truth they cannot lose the truth. If one never rejects the truth, and is never aware of the truth, what state are they in? NOSAS create a scenario where one gladly accepts redemption, but then casts it off. That is called doing the impossible, as no one can declare them selves unredeemed once they have been redeemed. But many keep rejecting having known the truth, just like demons know the truth, they just cannot embrace it.

 

[grafted branch]

All of these individually decided to do these things. No one decided it for them. Even though they totaled 3000, it still involved each of them making that decision themselves. Even in this scenario it involved at least two parties. They themselves that were saved and Peter who led them to their salvation. Actually it involved more than two parties since it obviously involved the Spirit of God as well.

So would you agree, for salvation to occur, that the first action that takes place is an action by God?

 

[Timtofly]

Joh 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Which version of Satan fits John 8:44? Did an angelic being have sex with all of the Pharisees mothers or was human DNA responsible for bringing the Pharisees into this world. Did an angelic being possess Cain or did the lust of the flesh cause Cain to kill Able. Did an angelic being invent lying or does lying come naturally through our DNA?

There's a reason why the King James bible has the serpent speaking exactly 46 words to Eve in the garden. There's a reason the phrase "the devil" is found exactly 46 times in the King James bible. There's a reason why God caused the temple to be built in 46 years and there's a reason the bible told us it took 46 years to build the earthly temple that foreshadowed the 46 chromosome REAL temple of God. I'm not saying these occurrences are absolute proof of anything but what those things do is make you question WHY did they do that.

Like I said before, the bible is an esoteric book designed to reveal the truth only to those who seek the truth and the rest will be blinded.

According to your logic, you mean the KJV is that way?

My point is that when Satan appears as an angel it is to decieve the elect, as he is submitting to his original form. Eve was not an elect. Eve was in the original form of humanity. As a serpent, Satan was appealing to the aspect of being more wise or having more knowledge.

As for all this symbolic usage of offspring and alledged procreation, it is just symbolism. Nothing is literal about angels having offspring with humans created on the 6th day. Nor can Adam's flesh and blood create offspring with angels. It is spiritual wickedness not physical wickedness. Spirits do not procreate either.

 

[DavidPT]

Did a demon ever have faith or repentance? If a demon is fully aware of the facts, unlike most souls alive on earth, then perhaps the spirits of humans are what forms demons. As demons inhabit and control the soul just like the Holy Spirit should. A spirit is the glory of the soul, not it's downfall. If a spirit can no longer provide glory, it is demonized and only wants destruction of the soul. You are correct, it cannot have faith nor repent. A demon is in a situation of no longer capable of Redemption. The same position of a reprobate soul. So explain to me which comes first? A reprobate soul or the spirit turned into a demonic force of corruption?

NOSAS have a point in why would a soul become reprobate in the first place. They have to know the truth to keep rejecting the truth. The issue is the point did they ever recieve the truth? If they never recieved the truth they cannot lose the truth. If one never rejects the truth, and is never aware of the truth, what state are they in? NOSAS create a scenario where one gladly accepts redemption, but then casts it off. That is called doing the impossible, as no one can declare them selves unredeemed once they have been redeemed. But many keep rejecting having known the truth, just like demons know the truth, they just cannot embrace it.

Since you mentioned NOSAS, and the fact I am of this camp, that is one main reason I can't accept Amil. Amil and NOSAS makes zero sense though I'm fully aware that SJ thinks it does make sense. Amil can only be true if OSAS is true and that NOSAS isn't. It is ludicrous to think both positions are compatible with Amil. Per Premil it wouldn't matter because one's fate has already been decided. And once one is in an immortal body, thus it has been decided that person is saved, they can never lose that immortal body ever. IOW, per Premil the first resurrection equals the bodily resurrection of the saved, and that once one is bodily resurrected they can't somehow lose part in the first resurrection at a later time.

Per Amil, then throw in NOSAS, this means that someone can initially have part in the first resurrection then lose part in it before it's over, which is preposterous. Yet, NOSAS is Biblical. No matter how one looks at it, the first resurrection involves salvation and that anyone having part in it can't somehow lose part in it eventually. Amils think that when one dies they then go to heaven to continue reigning a thousand years. How does one do that if they initially have part in the first resurrection, then before they die they lose part in it, thus NOSAS? Do they get to go to heaven regardless, in order to finish the thousand year reign, then when they are bodily raised they are cast into the LOF?

 

[Bob_1000]

According to your logic, you mean the KJV is that way?

My point is that when Satan appears as an angel it is to decieve the elect, as he is submitting to his original form. Eve was not an elect. Eve was in the original form of humanity. As a serpent, Satan was appealing to the aspect of being more wise or having more knowledge.

As for all this symbolic usage of offspring and alledged procreation, it is just symbolism. Nothing is literal about angels having offspring with humans created on the 6th day. Nor can Adam's flesh and blood create offspring with angels. It is spiritual wickedness not physical wickedness. Spirits do not procreate either.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There's a message in those two verses. Jesus was speaking words that the Pharisees understood very well. What they could not understand was HIS WORD in those words and that's why Jesus said ye are of your father the devil. HIS WORDS are spiritual words hidden in the spoken or written words. HIS WORDS have no shape or form, they are inferred from the written or spoken words and that unspoken word is what the Pharisees couldn't understand because they were of their father the devil which is nothing more than saying that they weren't born from above. If they had been born from above then they would have understood HIS WORD in His speech.

The same illustration of John 8 could have just as easily been illustrated here:

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

The one's that walked away from Jesus over this saying were of their father the devil.... the firstborn or the flesh, or the natural birth. They heard Jesus say those words as they are written but they couldn't hear HIS WORD in those words. The bible is written this way from cover to cover.

 

[claninja]

I have. Check the Op.

I did, the only verse the OP provides in regards to souls reigning in heaven with Christ is revelation 20:4-5.

just as you often request premils to provide supporting scripture for a literal 1,000 year interpretation, where is your supporting scripture that souls go to heaven to reign prior to the resurrection? While you do a great job of supporting Christ presently reigning and the saints presently being a royal priesthood, The OP is completely absent of supporting gospel/epistolic/non symbolic scripture for souls going to heaven to reign prior to the resurrection in order to bolster your interpretation of revelation 20:4-5

 

[claninja]

Can your interpretation explain why the nations had to be deceived in order to carry this out?

i believe Gog/Magog/Satan’s little season. is related to the crucifixion of Christ, as he is the sacrifice on the mountains whose flesh we eat and blood we drink, and persecution of the church by the unbelieving Jews and gentiles of the Roman world.

notice the similarities between revelation 19 and acts 4 where the nations and kings assemble against Christ. Herod and pilot and the Israelites and gentiles are included in this:

Revelation 19:19 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.

acts 4:25-27
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?26The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers assemble together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’dIn fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

But we know Christ was victorious by the cross

Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

The purpose of them not understanding was so that Christ would be crucified, otherwise if the rulers of the world had understood, they would not have done so.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[Bob_1000]

i believe Gog/Magog/Satan’s little season. is related to the crucifixion of Christ, as he is the sacrifice on the mountains whose flesh we eat and blood we drink, and persecution of the church by the unbelieving Jews and gentiles of the Roman world.

notice the similarities between revelation 19 and acts 4 where the nations and kings assemble against Christ. Herod and pilot and the Israelites and gentiles are included in this:

Revelation 19:19 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.

acts 4:25-27
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?26The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers assemble together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’dIn fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

But we know Christ we victorious by the cross

Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

The purpose of them not understanding was so that Christ would be crucified, otherwise if the rulers of the world had understood, they would not have done so.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I'm so glad you posted that! I never even thought of Acts 4 being related to Revelation 19.

 

[DavidPT]

i believe Gog/Magog/Satan’s little season. is related to the crucifixion of Christ, as he is the sacrifice on the mountains whose flesh we eat and blood we drink, and persecution of the church by the unbelieving Jews and gentiles of the Roman world.

notice the similarities between revelation 19 and acts 4 where the nations and kings assemble against Christ. Herod and pilot and the Israelites and gentiles are included in this:

Revelation 19:19 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.

acts 4:25-27
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?26The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers assemble together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’dIn fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

But we know Christ we victorious by the cross

Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

The purpose of them not understanding was so that Christ would be crucified, otherwise if the rulers of the world had understood, they would not have done so.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Now that you bring this up I do tend to recall you bringing some of this up in the past, maybe in other threads or maybe even in this one. Though I can somewhat see the logic in some of this, I still don't feel you are making the proper connections. This of course is just an opinion and that opinions by themselves prove nothing one way or the other.

 

[Timtofly]

The point is this, currently thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

Since His words continue on forever, this current spiritual reality will also be present in the NHNE.

In post #1428 you said “Nothing we currently understand will continue after heaven and earth pass away.”

Revelation 21:23 says the Lamb is the light thereof. Since we currently have both spiritual light and physical light, would you then say neither of these will be present in the NHNE?

You fully understand all of God's Fullness?

I said what we understand will not continue. We understand sin and death. That will not be in the NHNE. We understand Satan, not much there left to the imagination. Satan will not be in the NHNE.

What physical and spiritual light do you understand? It is the Word of God. That will remain. What understanding do you have outside of the Word of God? What is the difference between God's Word and what God created? Seems to me the whole of fallen existence. Whatever man has come up with and imagined. Fallen existence will not continue on into the NHNE. That is the basis of our current understanding.

 

[sovereigngrace]

i believe Gog/Magog/Satan’s little season. is related to the crucifixion of Christ, as he is the sacrifice on the mountains whose flesh we eat and blood we drink, and persecution of the church by the unbelieving Jews and gentiles of the Roman world.

notice the similarities between revelation 19 and acts 4 where the nations and kings assemble against Christ. Herod and pilot and the Israelites and gentiles are included in this:

Revelation 19:19 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.

acts 4:25-27
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?26The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers assemble together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’dIn fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

But we know Christ we victorious by the cross

Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

The purpose of them not understanding was so that Christ would be crucified, otherwise if the rulers of the world had understood, they would not have done so.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

You have Satan’s little season happening before the thousand year. You relate Gog/Magog/Satan’s little season ... to the crucifixion of Christ and the thousand years to Christ’s resurrection. This is ridiculous.

 

[grafted branch]

I said what we understand will not continue. We understand sin and death. That will not be in the NHNE. We understand Satan, not much there left to the imagination. Satan will not be in the NHNE.

But to understand salvation a person has to understand they are a sinner and will receive death because of it.

If we can’t understand that in the NHNE then we are going to understand less of the scriptures than we do now. Would we even be able to recognize Christ as our Savior?

I’m not sure why you need this for your theology to work but it doesn’t make sense.