Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Phero]

God chose a people. They read the words, studied the words, debated the word, gave the definition of the words, made sure the all the grammar and punctuation of the words were perfect, debated the figures of speech, the literal vs the spiritual, went to school aka sat at the feet of Gamaliel and were the most educated and knowledgeable in the world.

THEY GOT IT WRONG. They MISSED the Messiah.

The wise men came looking before He was being born. They missed it

Herod had all the babies killed. They still didn't get it.

He fulfilled all THE WORDS but NOT AS THEY SAW OR UNDERSTOOD IT.

The knew John the Baptist. They watched as MIRACLES and signs and healings and everything else happen

AND yet WITH THEM KNOWING for sure the truth,

THEY all missed what you and I today see as simple prophecy fulfilled.



I tried to read this post and all the information given here and IF I were a newbie, I would be so confused I would WALK AWAY from it all.

What are the chances everyone is TRYING TO BE RIGHT instead of trying to find unity?

SOME ONE needs to step back and say LET'S learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before and instead of making the words tell the story let the story tell the story and only use the 'tear down' method when a problem arises? LET'S BUILD upon the foundation. Let's go from milk to meat. Lets be ready for the former and latter rain. Let's listen for the OPENING up of the book of Daniel and the new information we will be given.

I can guarantee the future we are SEEING is EXACTLY WRONG, JUST like those who did see JESUS in the words written in the old.

What do we know? Christ was born, died and rose and is at the right hand of God.

Let's build upon that foundation. WHAT does Gods plan look like.

 

[claninja]

Let's start right here. Read what you previously stated and read what you are saying now.

I asked:

1. When did the thousand years commence?
4. When does it end?
5. How does it end?



I asked:

1. When (time-wise) was Satan cast out of heaven to war against the saints (revelation 12:12)?
2. When (time-wise) was Satan hindering the gospel to the nations (2 Thessalonians 2:18), masquerading as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), Satan prowling and looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8), Satan leading many astray (1 Timothy 5:15), working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1), etc?
3. When (time-wise) is sin no longer able to draw power from the law?
4. When (time-wise) is Satan crushed?



There you have it - in your own words!

There you have what?

i believe revelation 19:11-21 is an apocalyptic vision that combines Christs 1st and 2nd coming into one event in similar fashion as the OT oracles.

I believe the beast and kings and armies assembling against Christ to make war on him in revelation 19 is a reference to psalm 2, where the kings, rulers, and nations assembled against the Lords anointed one. The church stated this as fulfilled with Herod, Pilate, the gentiles, and Jews assembling together to crucify Christ in acts 4. I believe this crucifixion of Christ is part of the Gog/magog vision in Ezekiel where God’s sacrifice on the mountains is where we eat his flesh and drink his blood.


I believe following Christs triumphant victory over his enemies via the cross and the first resurrection, Satan was cast out to make war on the saints of Christ. I believe the “little season” of the Gog/magog gathering by Satan against the saints is specifically related to the persecution of the church. First Christ was hated, then his church.

John 15:18-19 If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first. 19If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

 

[claninja]

God chose a people. They read the words, studied the words, debated the word, gave the definition of the words, made sure the all the grammar and punctuation of the words were perfect, debated the figures of speech, the literal vs the spiritual, went to school aka sat at the feet of Gamaliel and were the most educated and knowledgeable in the world.

THEY GOT IT WRONG. They MISSED the Messiah.

The wise men came looking before He was being born. They missed it

Herod had all the babies killed. They still didn't get it.

He fulfilled all THE WORDS but NOT AS THEY SAW OR UNDERSTOOD IT.

The knew John the Baptist. They watched as MIRACLES and signs and healings and everything else happen

AND yet WITH THEM KNOWING for sure the truth,

THEY all missed what you and I today see as simple prophecy fulfilled.



I tried to read this post and all the information given here and IF I were a newbie, I would be so confused I would WALK AWAY from it all.

What are the chances everyone is TRYING TO BE RIGHT instead of trying to find unity?

SOME ONE needs to step back and say LET'S learn from the mistakes of those who have gone before and instead of making the words tell the story let the story tell the story and only use the 'tear down' method when a problem arises? LET'S BUILD upon the foundation. Let's go from milk to meat. Lets be ready for the former and latter rain. Let's listen for the OPENING up of the book of Daniel and the new information we will be given.

I can guarantee the future we are SEEING is EXACTLY WRONG, JUST like those who did see JESUS in the words written in the old.

What do we know? Christ was born, died and rose and is at the right hand of God.

Let's build upon that foundation. WHAT does Gods plan look like.

I definitely agree. Just as it’s more important to “love God and love your neighbor” than sacrifices, it’s much more important to “love God and love your neighbor” than to have the right eschatology.

that being said, this thread is definitely not a place for newbies. It’s for those who already have a a more firm understanding of of the different systematic theologies (premil, post, Amil) that have been created over the centuries.

welcome to Christianforums!

 

[sovereigngrace]

There you have what?

i believe revelation 19:11-21 is an apocalyptic vision that combines Christs 1st and 2nd coming into one event in similar fashion as the OT oracles.

I believe the beast and kings and armies assembling against Christ to make war on him in revelation 19 is a reference to psalm 2, where the kings, rulers, and nations assembled against the Lords anointed one. The church stated this as fulfilled with Herod, Pilate, the gentiles, and Jews assembling together to crucify Christ in acts 4. I believe this crucifixion of Christ is part of the Gog/magog vision in Ezekiel where God’s sacrifice on the mountains is where we eat his flesh and drink his blood.


I believe following Christs triumphant victory over his enemies via the cross and the first resurrection, Satan was cast out to make war on the saints of Christ. I believe the “little season” of the Gog/magog gathering by Satan against the saints is specifically related to the persecution of the church. First Christ was hated, then his church.

John 15:18-19 If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first. 19If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

And where is the literal physical visible future return of Christ at the end of the world?

 

[claninja]

And where is the literal physical visible future return of Christ at the end of the world?

I believe the coming of Christ at the end of the age in judgement upon Israel is what the “soon” or “at hand” statements are referring to. I believe this to typify a future coming of Christ at the end of the physical world.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I believe the coming of Christ at the end of the age in judgement upon Israel is what the “soon” or “at hand” statements are referring to. I believe this to typify a future coming of Christ at the end of the physical world.

But where is the literal physical visible future return of Christ at the end of the world in Revelation?

 

[DavidPT]

But wouldn’t Christ have been bestowed this 2,000 years ago after the cross when he rose again, which was much earlier than his 2nd coming?

I totally agree. I didn't mean to give the impression that that would not be true until the 2nd coming. My point was that what is recorded in Revelation 19 is involving events after Christ died, resurrected, then ascended to heaven. Since I'm assuming He was rewarded once He ascended to heaven. You seemed to have been relating Relation 19 with them plotting to crucify Him. And if so, Revelation 19 does not involve anything before His death and resurrection, it is meaning after those events. Why don't you instead apply what is recorded in Revelation 19 to that of the 2nd coming in the end of this age?

IMO, the following are meaning the same events.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked .

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations : and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth : and all the fowls were filled with their flesh


Why would there only be the wicked in the first century but not in the end of this age as well? When God pronounced judgment on the world in Noah's day, He waited until a specific time in order to execute that judgment, then things started over after that.

In the first century, assuming anything in Revelation 19 involves judgment in the first century, things didn't start over following any of that. But in the end of this age if this judgment is reserved until then, things would start over following that. It would be a different era following that. One might argue that per Premil though, it wouldn't be a different era following that, it would be more of the same ole same ole. Yet, it wouldn't be since Christ and His saints would be ruling the entire planet at the time. That's only assuming Premil is the correct position. But, since some don't take Premil to be the correct position, none of this even matters then. Per Amil, assuming that position rather than Premil, would one argue that things don't start over again following the 2nd coming? Meaning a new era arrives and the old era is done away with.

However, if this is about the 2nd coming, how could kings, rulers, and nations know when to assemble against Christ, if the day of his coming is unknown?

I grasp your point. It's a valid point. I'm not certain what to tell you since the text does give the impression they already know He is coming before He arrives, thus they are prepared and waiting. Even though it might give that impression, maybe it's not actually meaning that?

As to what is recorded in Revelation 19 then, does that coming involve a coming in judgment where Christ is physically seen by all, or does it involve Him coming in another sense where He would not be physically visible to anyone?


Take the following verse, for instance.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This verse says the beast and FP were taken. Who took them, assuming none of this involves a visible physical coming of Christ and His angels, then cast them into the LOF? Do they just cast themselves in there? The text indicates they are cast in while still alive. One can't then argue that this is meaning something that involves another realm following death. The LOF is apparently on the earth at the time since that is where all these events are taking place at. Can the LOF be on the earth? I tend to think it could. There are a cpl of passages that lead me to think it could, but I'm not really up to it at this time to try and go over any of that. So, regardless whether the LOF is on earth or somewhere else, Revelation 19:20 still has to involve a physical presence by the ones who take the beast and fp then cast them into the LOF.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When Christ came in judgment upon unbelieving Israel in flaming fire, giving relief to those that had been persecuted, like the Thessalonian believers.

How does that fit fire coming down on people from throughout the world who number "as the sand of the sea"? What you're talking about clearly does not have the same context as Revelation 20:7-9.

Are the thessalonian believers still waiting for relief from the oppression of the unbelieving Jews?

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

That passage clearly has not yet occurred. Did Jesus already take vengeance on all those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus? Absolutely not. Jesus has clearly not yet been revealed from heaven with His mighty angels to take vengeance on all of His enemies. Do you understand that those people who persecuted the Thessalonian believers will be resurrected and condemned on judgment day and cast into the lake of fire? It is in that way that Jesus will take vengeance on them and all other dead unbelievers. And He will take vengeance on all of His enemies who are still alive when He returns in the future.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, I am serious.

Satan no longer has oversight on those souls in Abraham's bosom. They physically came out of their graves and entered Paradise. All who have passed from death into life, now have physical permanent incorruptible bodies in Paradise. Satan can no longer hold the soul captive, nor prevent a physical body.

I said nothing at all about Abraham's bosom or Satan having oversight on souls. I was talking about what Satan was able to do in Old Testament times in relation to people who were alive during those times compared to New Testament times. You said Satan was just sitting around and watching during Old Testament times. That's ridiculous and that is what I was commenting on.

 

[jeffweedaman]

That passage clearly has not yet occurred. Did Jesus already take vengeance on all those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus? Absolutely not. Jesus has clearly not yet been revealed from heaven with His mighty angels to take vengeance on all of His enemies. Do you understand that those people who persecuted the Thessalonian believers will be resurrected and condemned on judgment day and cast into the lake of fire? It is in that way that Jesus will take vengeance on them and all other dead unbelievers. And He will take vengeance on all of His enemies who are still alive when He returns in the future.

Very well put. At the same time he takes vengeance ,he will also glorify those who are his on that day.
Call it a separating of the sheep and the goats to their eternal destinies.

 

[DavidPT]

Very well put. At the same time he takes vengeance ,he will also glorify those who are his on that day.
Call it a separating of the sheep and the goats to their eternal destinies.

Now if only some of you could grasp who the goats are meaning in that context. The last 10 or so verses in Matthew 24 plus all of the verses in Matthew 25 leading up to this judgment make it crystal clear who it is that are meant by the goats. Thus, this is not the same judgment as the GWTJ.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Now if only some of you could grasp who the goats are meaning in that context. The last 10 or so verses in Matthew 24 plus all of the verses in Matthew 25 leading up to this judgment make it crystal clear who it is that are meant by the goats. Thus, this is not the same judgment as the GWTJ.

That is rather vague Bro.
The goats are thrown into the lake that was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Nobody is thrown into that lake until the book of life is opened .


Matt 25
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Rev 20
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone,....


15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Now if only some of you could grasp who the goats are meaning in that context. The last 10 or so verses in Matthew 24 plus all of the verses in Matthew 25 leading up to this judgment make it crystal clear who it is that are meant by the goats. Thus, this is not the same judgment as the GWTJ.

Really? Who in your opinion are the wicked goats then?

 

[claninja]

Why don't you instead apply what is recorded in Revelation 19 to that of the 2nd coming in the end of this age?

simply because the gospels and epistles are silent on kings and armies attempting to attack a descending-out-of-the-sky Christ. The gospels and epistles, instead, depict nations, rulers, and kings gathering against Christ at the cross.

IMO, the following are meaning the same events.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked .

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations : and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth : and all the fowls were filled with their flesh

valid points, but to counter, I would argue Jesus had this authority over the nations at the resurrection. Notice, Jesus uses the perfect tense verb “received”. this means the event was fulfilled in the past with the results being experienced up to the present. Thus his ruling with a rod wouldn’t start at the 2nd coming, but with his 1st advent. It would be the 2nd coming for those who overcome to rule with a rod of iron.

Revelation 2:27 He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like potterya —just as I have received authority from My Father.

As to what is recorded in Revelation 19 then, does that coming involve a coming in judgment where Christ is physically seen by all, or does it involve Him coming in another sense where He would not be physically visible to anyone?

I think there are elements of both advents at the end revelation 19 being told as a single event. I don’t find this unreasonable as the OT often didn’t differentiate between Christs first and 2nd advent (block logic).

I believe the end of this passage simply relates the story of Christ being crucified, but ultimately being victorious, but just in apocalyptic language.

 

[claninja]

But where is the literal physical visible future return of Christ at the end of the world in Revelation?

Possibly end of revelation 20 with the GWTJ. But ultimately I believe that is a secret thing known only to God (Deuteronomy 29:29) and not revealed in scripture.

 

[DavidPT]

Really? Who in your opinion are the wicked goats then?

I'll just make it simple. Everything that I paste below, what I have underlined is meaning the goats in ch 25.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth .


Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish .

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Possibly end of revelation 20 with the GWTJ. But ultimately I believe that is a secret thing known only to God (Deuteronomy 29:29) and not revealed in scripture.

Why is nothing ever real of definite in regard to a literal physical visible future return of Christ at the end of the world, yet all your other absurd and obscure speculations (your rendering of the thousand years as a phantom, and placing Satan's little season before it and your obsession with te coming of Titus in AD70) are so solid?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I'll just make it simple. Everything that I paste below, what I have underlined is meaning the goats in ch 25.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth .


Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish .

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Exactly: all the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes. There is none left to enter and overrun your so-called future millennium.

 

[jeffweedaman]

I'll just make it simple. Everything that I paste below, what I have underlined is meaning the goats in ch 25.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth .


Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish .

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them.

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.


48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and he begins to beat his fellow slaves, and he eats and drinks with those habitually drunk; 50 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will cut him in two and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Those wicked servants are assigned the same place as the rest of the wicked at the same time.
See my previous post to you.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Now if only some of you could grasp who the goats are meaning in that context. The last 10 or so verses in Matthew 24 plus all of the verses in Matthew 25 leading up to this judgment make it crystal clear who it is that are meant by the goats. Thus, this is not the same judgment as the GWTJ.

So, why do you have the sheep inheriting a temporary, earthly millennial kingdom at that time instead of the "eternal life" that Jesus said the sheep will inherit at that time? And, it couldn't be more obvious that Matthew 25:41 is speaking of the same thing as Revelation 20:15 which means the goats are clearly those whose names are not written in the book of life. And they are not cast into the fire until AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season). So, no matter how "crystal clear" you think it is, it's crystal clear to me that you're interpreting it wrongly.