In addition to the imputed righteousness of justification, the NT also presents and exhorts to the righteousness of sanctification leading to holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 6:16, 19)There's nothing wrong with the doctrine of "imputed righteousness" if by it we mean to emphasize that man has no righteousness on his own, apart from God, and that he cannot possibly be saved apart from Him. That is solid Church teaching, laid down at council and in catechisms, etc. But if it means that man is free from the obligation to be personally righteouess, and live accordingly in order to be saved, then that docrine only serves to obfuscate the gosepl.
We are agreed that God can, indeed, make righteous the unrighteous. So He does more than impute righteousness to us. The danger is when we think that an imputed righteousness is sufficient to save us rather than Christ saving us by making us righteous, finally, the right way, God's way.In addition to the imputed righteousness of justification, the NT also presents and exhorts to the righteousness of sanctification leading to holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit.
We are agreed. . .so nice.
We are agreed that God can, indeed, make righteous the unrighteous. So He does more than impute righteousness to us. The danger is when we think that an imputed righteousness is sufficient to save us rather than Christ saving us by making us righteous, finally, the right way, God's way.
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21
Again, by the disobedience of Adam the many actually became sinners, and not only imputed to be sinners. And by the obedience of Jesus the many are made righteous, not just imputed to be. Rom 5:19:
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Yes, without faith we will not know Christ. And without that knowledge, that union, we cannot be who He created us to be. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.”Moses was faithful in all his house, and the Jews of Judaism follow that faithful ( obedience)
The obedience of Christ is that Christ is the house ( is all things) and we have to believe in all things, which is the revelation of the mystery, made known to all nations,for the obedience of faith.
Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Strawman. . .irrelevant.We are agreed that God can, indeed, make righteous the unrighteous. So He does more than impute righteousness to us. The danger is when we think that an imputed righteousness is sufficient to save us rather than Christ saving us by making us righteous, finally, the right way, God's way.
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21
So which side of this street are you going to walk on?Again, by the disobedience of Adam the many actually became sinners, and not only imputed to be sinners. And by the obedience of Jesus the many are made righteous, not just imputed to be. Rom 5:19:
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
There's something very different with the new covenant. It promises to do what the old could not, based solely on the law as the OC was, requiring me to be righteous- as I am-as if that were even possible. We're here to learn that this is not possible-something more fundamental must happen first. We lack one thing, which is knowledge of/communion with God. And that communion is estalbished by faith. Otherwise we're just paying God lip-service at best.Moses was faithful in all his house, and the Jews of Judaism follow that faithful ( obedience)
The obedience of Christ is that Christ is the house ( is all things) and we have to believe in all things, which is the revelation of the mystery, made known to all nations,for the obedience of faith.
Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
No, the context is that Moses was a servant in God's house, but Jesus is a son over God's house, making him greater than Moses (Hebrews 3:5-6).Moses was faithful in all his house, and the Jews of Judaism follow that faithful ( obedience)
The obedience of Christ is that Christ is the house ( is all things) and we have to believe in all things, which is the revelation of the mystery, made known to all nations,for the obedience of faith.
Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
You said:1) I've never seen or heard anyone say that imputed righteousness is sufficient to save, at least not anyone for whom Scripture is the authority for faith and doctrine.
So you maintain that this fellowship does not constitute salvation?The "good it does" is make us acceptable to the perfectly pure holiness of God's presence which even the slightest sin/unrighteousness would defile, only the righteousness of Jesus Christ being acceptable, thereby admitting us into fellowship with God by its being imputed to us (Romans 5:18-19) in justification by faith (as it was imputed to Abraham by faith--Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, and he became a friend of God, admitted into God's presence), because even after a life of holiness, we still are not righteous enough to keep from defiling the perfectly pure holiness of God's presence in his fellowship with us.
Ok, so now you agree that personal holiness, righteousness is necessary in order to be saved-apparently an imputed righteousness is insufficient to make man just enough in the eyes of God to enter heaven. Good.2) I've never seen or heard of anyone denying the righteousness of sanctification (leading to holiness through obedience--Romans 6:16, Romans 16:19), at least not anyone for whom Scripture is the authority for faith and doctrine.
Of course, but that doesn't mean that God's an irrational fool either. Fortunately Scripture supports God's wisdom-not the foolishness espoused by many men with their crude and awkward interpretations.By the way, by special wire Paul has asked me to remind you that human reason does not govern Scripture, as it did for you regarding imputed righteousness in justification by faith, but that Scripture governs human reason; i.e., you don't have to understand the why and how of the word of God in order to believe what it teaches, as you rejected imputed righteousness until the why and how made sense to you. Not a good MO for the man of God.
I never gave sanction to "imputed rightouness" -I opposed it. Man is fallen if you haven't noticed. He lost righteousness when he became apart from God. And so man sins. He's not imputed to be a sinner, to be unrighteous. He is unrighteous. And you never explained why an imputed righteousness would make any difference anyway.You just took away what you gave--imputed righteousness (as well as imputed guilt).
I suggest you recheck who the sender was.I see now why Paul sent the special wire.
They actually became sinners. They fell with Adam. God doesn't merely see them as sinners-they ARE sinners: sin entered the world through Adam. The only solution is for Jesus/God to make them righteous-because they can have none apart from Him.So how are they made sinners. . .they didn't do Adam's sin? They had absolutely nothing to do with Adam's sin. They can't be sinners in themselves.
Adam's guilt was accounted/imputed to them.
Faith places us back into right stead and relationship with God; it's the foundation of justice/righteousness for man as it establishes him in the union with God that man was created for. So, by Abraham's faith he was considered, declared, reckoned, counted, said to be righteous-because he really was! And his actions demonstrated it. No man is forced to take that step, of belief, but when we do we enter God’s family, and a new life begins. We’re justified and therefore saved but we’re by no means forced to remain in that state of justice; we can forfeit it, we can turn back away from God and the righteousness intrinsic to that relationship all over again.And how are they made righteous. . .they didn't do Christ's obedience? They had absolutely nothing to do with Christ's obedience. They can't be righteous in themselves.
Christ's righteousness was credited/imputed to them (because of faith).
This fellowship with God is the result of salvation by faith and the imputed righteousness of justification,So you maintain that this fellowship does not constitute salvation?
I do not agree that personal righteousness is necessary for God to save us.Ok, so now you agree that personal holiness, righteousness is necessary in order to be saved-
So you oppose the "imputed righteousness" of Abraham in the Scriptures (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6)?apparently an imputed righteousness is insufficient to make man just enough in the eyes of God to enter heaven. Good.
Of course, but that doesn't mean that God's an irrational fool either. Fortunately Scripture supports God's wisdom-not the foolishness espoused by many men with their crude and awkward interpretations.
I never gave sanction to "imputed rightouness" -I opposed it.
Don't punish and negate the doctrine for people's ignorance regarding it."There's nothing wrong with the doctrine of "imputed righteousness" if by it we mean to emphasize that man has no righteousness on his own, apart from God, and that he cannot possibly be saved apart from Him. That is solid Church teaching, laid down at council and in catechisms, etc."
But if it means that man is free from the obligation to be personally righteouess, and live accordingly in order to be saved, then that doctrine only serves to obfuscate the gosepl.
Man is fallen if you haven't noticed. He lost righteousness when he became apart from God. And so man sins. He's not imputed to be a sinner, to be unrighteous. He is unrighteous. And you never explained why an imputed righteousness would make any difference anyway.
I suggest you recheck who the sender was.
They actually became sinners. They fell with Adam. God doesn't merely see them as sinners-they ARE sinners: sin entered the world through Adam. The only solution is for Jesus/God to make them righteous-because they can have none apart from Him.
Faith places us back into right stead and relationship with God; it's the foundation of justice/righteousness for man as it establishes him in the union with God that man was created for. So, by Abraham's faith he was considered, declared, reckoned, counted, said to be righteous-because he really was! And his actions demonstrated it. No man is forced to take that step, of belief, but when we do we enter God’s family, and a new life begins. We’re justified and therefore saved but we’re by no means forced to remain in that state of justice; we can forfeit it, we can turn back away from God and the righteousness intrinsic to that relationship all over again.
“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22
"There's nothing wrong with the doctrine of "imputed righteousness" if by it we mean to emphasize that man has no righteousness on his own, apart from God, and that he cannot possibly be saved apart from Him. That is solid Church teaching, laid down at council and in catechisms, etc. But if it means that man is free from the obligation to be personally righteouess, and live accordingly in order to be saved, then that docrine only serves to obfuscate the gosepl.From your post #40:
The confusion is very much on your part, dear Clare. You haven't even considered the obvious contradictions in your position. And if therefore you're ready to bow out, go for it.You seem to be too confused to engage in this kind of discussion.
Yes, and requires it even as He assists us in acheiving it. God's on our side, but not on the side of the sin that separates us from Him. For that the Good Doctor has the cure."In addition to the imputed righteousness of justification, the NT also presents and exhorts to the righteousness of sanctification leading to holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 6:16, 19)"
1) I've never seen or heard anyone say that imputed righteousness is sufficient to save, at least not anyone for whom Scripture is the authority for faith and doctrine.
We covered this in post #39.Yes, and requires it even as He assists us in acheiving it. God's on our side, but not on the side of the sin that separates us from Him. For that the Good Doctor has the cure.
So which is it? Does the imputation of righteousness make us fit for salvation, since you maintain that personal righteousness is not necessary for salvation? Or is that imputation just some superfluous act that God does for some reason?
Oookk...so the righteouness that faith accomplishes for us, whether imputed or otherwise, contributes nothing to make us heavendbound, but it does make us fit for being in God's presence. Sure.We covered this in post #39.
It's only part of the package, it takes the whole package to get there, which comes with saving faith and imputed righteousness, where God works in you both to will and to do (Philippians 2:13).Oookk...so the righteouness that faith accomplishes for us, whether imputed or otherwise, contributes nothing to make us heavendbound, but it does make us fit for being in God's presence. Sure.
The new covenant was never about God suddenly doing an about-face and no longer requiring man to be righteous as we learn what He already knows-that man can never be righteous enough to obey the law that he was created to obey. Rather the new covenant is all about finally accomplishing in us what the law could not: the righteousness that the law was incapable of achieving, regardless of how right and true and good the law is.
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. Rom 3:21-23
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21
"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13
The New Covenant is about God redeeming a sinful condemned people to be his personal inheritance with whom he may fellowship as they are transformed into the righteousness leading to holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:16, 19).The new covenant is about coming to know God for ourselves (Jer 31:34), to know His goodness, trustworthiness, mercy, and love as definitively revealed by Jesus, so that we’ll turn to Him in faith and truly become His people (Jer 31:33). Within that relationship He immediately begins to place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jer 31:33). God, alone can justify man. Man, OTOH, can walk away from that relationship, and therefore from that justice or righteousness, just as we can dismiss and turn away from any relationship. Adam did that very thing in Eden and we’re here to learn just how wrong he was-so we’ll turn back to Him now-and remain there.
That's pretty good, and it happens as we come to know and believe in Him for ourselves: both a gift and a choice. And without that holiness no one will see the Lord-so we must pursue it. (Heb 12:14). And we can turn and walk away from that holiness anytime.The New Covenant is about God redeeming a sinful condemned people to be his personal inheritance with whom he may fellowship as they are transformed into the righteousness of holiness by obedience in the Holy Spirit into holiness.
If we are the final decision makers, that holiness won't happen (Romans 8:7-8) .That's pretty good, and it happens as we come to know and believe in Him for ourselves: both a gift and a choice. And without that holiness no one will see the Lord-so we must pursue it. (Heb 12:14). And we can turn and walk away from that holiness anytime.
And if we don't cooperate in pursuing it, holiness won't happen. The only reason evil/unholiness is possible at all is because God allows it-and therefore allows us to shun it. Man's most basic lesson to be learned, man's part: the only way to overcome evil is to run to God; we cannot do it apart from Him; He doesn't force us to live by the Spirit. So:If we are the final decision makers, that holiness won't happen (Romans 8:7-8) .
