post-Trib, Pre-mill RAPTURE

BobRyan said:

They describe the same event. They show all the inhabitants of the Earth brought face to face with Christ at His appearing.

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Not at all the same event.
they are characteristically different in the details given, and in the reaction of people to them.
In the first, it's in the clouds, the sun and moon are darkened, and the inhabitants of the earth mourn.

In the second, it's on the earth, It's specifically evening time and it's light (Zechariah 14) and the inhabitants of the earth rise up to fight.

Nothing about these 2 events is the same except the central actor is Jesus.

BobRyan said:

In the first (Rev 6) people on earth see Christ - at his appearing. As they do in Matt 24.
In the second (Rev 19) people on earth see Christ at his appearing.

Rev 6:
15 Then the kings of the earth and the eminent people, and the commanders and the wealthy and the strong, and every slave and free person hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the sight of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Rev 19:
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

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Yes, two totally different reactions.
not to mention, Zechariah 14 specifies that it is light at evening.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

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Matthew 24, Revelation 1:7, and Zechariah describe Him being in the clouds, and all the people on the earth are wailing and mourning. Matthew 24, and several old testament sources describe the sun and moon being darkened (so not evening or light) when that happens. That happens in Revelation 6 at the 6th seal. The sun and moon darken, and the people on the earth wail and hide, they even SEE Jesus.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

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Does that sound like they're gathered for battle to you?

What Revelation 19 describes is more like what Zechariah 14 describes. Which is a battle, on land, during the eveningtime.

in between these two events is the wrath of God. the trumpets and bowls.

BobRyan said:

tells us two things -

They initially gather thinking they are able to wage war - but are then disabused of that fallacy and run for their lives



The second one settles in as they more fully realize what they are up against .

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That's not what's described though.
they're killed on the battlefield, not running to bunkers and caves, as in the first appearance.
John describes people going for bunkers in the appearance in the clouds.

also take into account the responses to the bowls and trumpets.

Revelation 9

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

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Revelation 16

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

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They go from fear and hiding, to cursing and hatred of God.
and then they get stirred up to do something about that anger and hatred towards God (since hiding obviously didn't work)

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

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even the response after Jesus comes for Armageddon.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

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They're not wailing or mourning
they're cursing and blaspheming.

The 2nd coming appears 4 times: (Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 11:15-18; Rev. 14:14-20; Rev. 19:11-21)

Notes and bible translation from Tim Warner
A Verse by verse opinion/teaching of the book of revelation is available here: BBI Module 11
Including accompanying notes for each section.


[LGV] Revelation 6:12 And I observed when He opened the sixth seal, and look, there was a great shaking, and the sun became black like mohair, and the whole moon became like blood.147 13 And the stars of the sky fell to the ground like a fig tree dropping its figs when shaken by a strong wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up,148 and every mountain and island was stirred from its place. 15 And the kings of the land, the great ones, the commanders, the rich men, the strong, every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains149 16 and said to the mountains and rocks: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of His150 wrath151 has arrived, and who is able to stand?”

*147 Matthew 24:29; Joel 2:30-31; Acts 2:20.
*148 Isaiah 34:4
*149 Isaiah 2:10,19,21
*150 The Alexandrian Text has “their wrath.”
*151 Psalm 2

[LGV] Revelation 11:15-18 15 Then the seventh messenger sounded, and there were great voices in the sky, saying: “The kingdom233 of the world has become [the Kingdom] of our Master and of His Anointed, and He shall reign unto the ages of the ages!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who are sitting before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give You thanks, Master God, THE SOVEREIGN OVER ALL, the One who is, who was, and who is to come because You have taken hold of Your great authority and begun to rule! 18 And the nations were made angry and Your wrath has arrived, also the time for the dead to be judged234 and to give reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the holy ones, and to those fearing Your name, small and great, and to destroy those destroying the Land.”

*233 The Textus Receptus has “kingdoms” (plural)
*234 Judgment of the dead necessitates the resurrection of the just

[LGV] Revelation 14:14-20 14 And I observed, and look, a white cloud and on the cloud was sitting One like the Son of Man,323 having on His head a golden wreath, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another messenger324 came out of the Temple, calling with a loud voice to the One sitting on the cloud: “Swing325 Your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the land has dried up.” 16 So the One sitting on the cloud swung His sickle over326 the land, and the land was harvested. The Harvest of the Wicked 17 And another messenger327 came out of the Temple which is in the sky, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another messenger came out from the altar, having authority over fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one having the sharp sickle, saying: “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the land, for her grapes have ripened.”
*332 The Greek word (σταδίον – neuter, not σταδίος – masculine) simply refers to a fixed unit of measurement. In Rev. 21:16 the length of a σταδίον (unit of measure) is deduced by comparing the dimensions of the New Jerusalem (also given in σταδίον) to the dimensions provided by Ezekiel. (See notes on that passage). The “measure” in Rev. 21:16 was 18 feet in length. Therefore, 1,600 σταδίον would be 28,800 feet, about 5.5 miles. Some translations incorrectly have 1,600 “furlongs” or calculated out as “two hundred miles.” This is from confusing the neuter σταδίον (a fixed measure) with the masculine σταδίος which refers to the Greek race course of about 600 ft, since both terms are spelled the same when in the genitive case and plural number – σταδίων. A river of blood five feet deep for nearly 200 miles is utterly impossible, since the Kidron Valley slowly descends from the east side of Jerusalem south and east, down to the Dead Sea about 12 miles away. Note that this river of blood is “outside the city” of Jerusalem.
*333 A sea as glass is a metaphor for a perfectly calm sea, no doubt pointing to Jesus’ calming the sea of Galilee when the disciples were in fear of the ship sinking in the storm. “Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.” (Matt 8:26)
*334 The calm sea mixed with fire represents perfect peace and calm in the midst of intense tribulation.
*335 Present continuous tense – they are in the process of conquering these things, thus still in persecution.
*336 Perfect tense, “having come to stand,” pointing back to Jesus’ walking on the sea and Peter’s attempt to do so.
*337 Musical instruments dedicated to the worship of God (1 Chron. 25:6).

[LGV] Revelation 19:11-21 11 And I observed the sky having been opened,421 and look, a white horse! And the One sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and with justice He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire,422 and on His head are many crowns423 having a name engraved that no one knows except Himself. 13 And He was clothed in a robe having been dipped in blood.424 And His name has been given425 Logos of God.426 14 And the armies427 in the sky were following Him on white horses, having been dressed in linen white and clean. 15 And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword so that with it He may strike the nations. And He will shepherd428 them with an iron rod.429 And He treads the vat of the wine of the fury and wrath of God, 430 SOVEREIGN OVER ALL. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name having been engraved, “King of kings, and Master of masters.” 17 And I observed one messenger, standing in the sun. And he called with a loud voice to all the birds flying in mid–sky, saying: “Come, assemble together for the great feast from God,431 18 so that you may eat flesh of kings, flesh of captains, flesh of strong men, flesh of horses and their riders, and flesh of all, free and slave, small and great.” 19 And I observed the beast and the kings of the land and their armies having been brought together432 to do battle433 against the One sitting on the horse and against His army. 20 And the beast was captured, and [along] with it the false prophet434 who performed signs before it, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive435 into the lake of fire burning with sulfur. 21 And the rest436 were slain with the sword proceeding from the mouth of the One sitting on the horse. And all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh.

*421 John’s point of observation changes from the sky to the land. He observed the sky parting. (cf. Rev. 6:14 & Isa. 34:4).
*422 Rev. 1:14
*423 Zech. 6:11-12 LXX 424 Isaiah 63:1-6
*425 The Textus Receptus has καλεῖται (present tense) implying only the present continuous use of “Logos” as a name for the Son of God. However the oldest and majority reading is κέκληται (perfect tense) which points to an event in the past of being “named” followed by the continuous state of this being His name to the present.
*426 Here John undeniably attests that the “Logos” of his Gospel prologue (John 1:1,14) was the name given to the Son of God. This fact alone destroys Unitarianism. See also: Heb. 4:12; 1 Pet. 1:23; Rev. 20:4
*427 “Armies” (στρατεύματα) refers to military forces (celestial messengers) not to Christians.
*428 This is a direct quote from Psalm 2:9 LXX. Most significant is the fact that John quoted the Greek Old Testament rather than the Hebrew, (which has “smash” rather than ”shepherd”). The verb rendered “shepherd” (ποιμανεῖ) in both means to “tend (feed) a flock.”
*429 To “shepherd them with a rod of iron” implies two things. First, the intent is not to destroy the nations, but to lead them. Second, force will have to be used, at least initially. This verse, and the Psalm it quotes, are absolute proof that amillennialism is false, because it proves that Jesus will lead the nations on the land after His second coming and cause them to eventually submit to His Kingdom, (cf. Zech. 14:16-21). 430 Joel 3:13; Rev. 14:17-20
*431 Ezekiel 39:17-20
*432 The verb is in the perfect tense and passive voice. They had been led here by the “lying breaths,” (Rev. 16:12-16).
*433 They know why they are gathering, as a brazen attempt to overthrow Jesus and His angelic army at His coming.
*434 Rev. 13:11-18 435 2 Thess. 2:8 436 2 Thess. 1:9-10, Zech. 14:12-13

Yosoyguapo said:

The 2nd coming appears 4 times: (Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 11:15-18; Rev. 14:14-20; Rev. 19:11-21)

Notes and bible translation from Tim Warner
A Verse by verse opinion/teaching of the book of revelation is available here: BBI Module 11
Including accompanying notes for each section.


[LGV] Revelation 6:12 And I observed when He opened the sixth seal, and look, there was a great shaking, and the sun became black like mohair, and the whole moon became like blood.147 13 And the stars of the sky fell to the ground like a fig tree dropping its figs when shaken by a strong wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up,148 and every mountain and island was stirred from its place. 15 And the kings of the land, the great ones, the commanders, the rich men, the strong, every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains149 16 and said to the mountains and rocks: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of His150 wrath151 has arrived, and who is able to stand?”

*147 Matthew 24:29; Joel 2:30-31; Acts 2:20.
*148 Isaiah 34:4
*149 Isaiah 2:10,19,21
*150 The Alexandrian Text has “their wrath.”
*151 Psalm 2

[LGV] Revelation 11:15-18 15 Then the seventh messenger sounded, and there were great voices in the sky, saying: “The kingdom233 of the world has become [the Kingdom] of our Master and of His Anointed, and He shall reign unto the ages of the ages!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who are sitting before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give You thanks, Master God, THE SOVEREIGN OVER ALL, the One who is, who was, and who is to come because You have taken hold of Your great authority and begun to rule! 18 And the nations were made angry and Your wrath has arrived, also the time for the dead to be judged234 and to give reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the holy ones, and to those fearing Your name, small and great, and to destroy those destroying the Land.”

*233 The Textus Receptus has “kingdoms” (plural)
*234 Judgment of the dead necessitates the resurrection of the just

[LGV] Revelation 14:14-20 14 And I observed, and look, a white cloud and on the cloud was sitting One like the Son of Man,323 having on His head a golden wreath, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another messenger324 came out of the Temple, calling with a loud voice to the One sitting on the cloud: “Swing325 Your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the land has dried up.” 16 So the One sitting on the cloud swung His sickle over326 the land, and the land was harvested. The Harvest of the Wicked 17 And another messenger327 came out of the Temple which is in the sky, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another messenger came out from the altar, having authority over fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one having the sharp sickle, saying: “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the land, for her grapes have ripened.”
*332 The Greek word (σταδίον – neuter, not σταδίος – masculine) simply refers to a fixed unit of measurement. In Rev. 21:16 the length of a σταδίον (unit of measure) is deduced by comparing the dimensions of the New Jerusalem (also given in σταδίον) to the dimensions provided by Ezekiel. (See notes on that passage). The “measure” in Rev. 21:16 was 18 feet in length. Therefore, 1,600 σταδίον would be 28,800 feet, about 5.5 miles. Some translations incorrectly have 1,600 “furlongs” or calculated out as “two hundred miles.” This is from confusing the neuter σταδίον (a fixed measure) with the masculine σταδίος which refers to the Greek race course of about 600 ft, since both terms are spelled the same when in the genitive case and plural number – σταδίων. A river of blood five feet deep for nearly 200 miles is utterly impossible, since the Kidron Valley slowly descends from the east side of Jerusalem south and east, down to the Dead Sea about 12 miles away. Note that this river of blood is “outside the city” of Jerusalem.
*333 A sea as glass is a metaphor for a perfectly calm sea, no doubt pointing to Jesus’ calming the sea of Galilee when the disciples were in fear of the ship sinking in the storm. “Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.” (Matt 8:26)
*334 The calm sea mixed with fire represents perfect peace and calm in the midst of intense tribulation.
*335 Present continuous tense – they are in the process of conquering these things, thus still in persecution.
*336 Perfect tense, “having come to stand,” pointing back to Jesus’ walking on the sea and Peter’s attempt to do so.
*337 Musical instruments dedicated to the worship of God (1 Chron. 25:6).

[LGV] Revelation 19:11-21 11 And I observed the sky having been opened,421 and look, a white horse! And the One sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and with justice He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire,422 and on His head are many crowns423 having a name engraved that no one knows except Himself. 13 And He was clothed in a robe having been dipped in blood.424 And His name has been given425 Logos of God.426 14 And the armies427 in the sky were following Him on white horses, having been dressed in linen white and clean. 15 And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword so that with it He may strike the nations. And He will shepherd428 them with an iron rod.429 And He treads the vat of the wine of the fury and wrath of God, 430 SOVEREIGN OVER ALL. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name having been engraved, “King of kings, and Master of masters.” 17 And I observed one messenger, standing in the sun. And he called with a loud voice to all the birds flying in mid–sky, saying: “Come, assemble together for the great feast from God,431 18 so that you may eat flesh of kings, flesh of captains, flesh of strong men, flesh of horses and their riders, and flesh of all, free and slave, small and great.” 19 And I observed the beast and the kings of the land and their armies having been brought together432 to do battle433 against the One sitting on the horse and against His army. 20 And the beast was captured, and [along] with it the false prophet434 who performed signs before it, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive435 into the lake of fire burning with sulfur. 21 And the rest436 were slain with the sword proceeding from the mouth of the One sitting on the horse. And all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh.

*421 John’s point of observation changes from the sky to the land. He observed the sky parting. (cf. Rev. 6:14 & Isa. 34:4).
*422 Rev. 1:14
*423 Zech. 6:11-12 LXX 424 Isaiah 63:1-6
*425 The Textus Receptus has καλεῖται (present tense) implying only the present continuous use of “Logos” as a name for the Son of God. However the oldest and majority reading is κέκληται (perfect tense) which points to an event in the past of being “named” followed by the continuous state of this being His name to the present.
*426 Here John undeniably attests that the “Logos” of his Gospel prologue (John 1:1,14) was the name given to the Son of God. This fact alone destroys Unitarianism. See also: Heb. 4:12; 1 Pet. 1:23; Rev. 20:4
*427 “Armies” (στρατεύματα) refers to military forces (celestial messengers) not to Christians.
*428 This is a direct quote from Psalm 2:9 LXX. Most significant is the fact that John quoted the Greek Old Testament rather than the Hebrew, (which has “smash” rather than ”shepherd”). The verb rendered “shepherd” (ποιμανεῖ) in both means to “tend (feed) a flock.”
*429 To “shepherd them with a rod of iron” implies two things. First, the intent is not to destroy the nations, but to lead them. Second, force will have to be used, at least initially. This verse, and the Psalm it quotes, are absolute proof that amillennialism is false, because it proves that Jesus will lead the nations on the land after His second coming and cause them to eventually submit to His Kingdom, (cf. Zech. 14:16-21). 430 Joel 3:13; Rev. 14:17-20
*431 Ezekiel 39:17-20
*432 The verb is in the perfect tense and passive voice. They had been led here by the “lying breaths,” (Rev. 16:12-16).
*433 They know why they are gathering, as a brazen attempt to overthrow Jesus and His angelic army at His coming.
*434 Rev. 13:11-18 435 2 Thess. 2:8 436 2 Thess. 1:9-10, Zech. 14:12-13

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Correct, there are actually 5, if you count Revelation 16..

however. 2 of the comings are like each other, and the other 2 comings are different from that one

Revelation 6 and 14 are an appearance in the clouds, just before the wrath of God. In Revelation 8-11 the wrath of God is represented by the 7 trumpets, after the appearance in the clouds at the 6th seal. The 7th seal brings out the 7 trumpets. At the 7th Trumpet, Jesus claims His kingdom.

So there tribulation (the first 5 seals), an appearance in the clouds (6th seal), saints in heaven (chapter 7), the wrath of God on earth (the first 6 trumpets), and then Jesus claiming His kingdom (7th trumpet), in that order, from Revelation 6-11.

Revelation 12 starts at Jesus' birth, clear Chronological break. and then we go back to Satan ruling and giving power to the beast (clearly not after the 7th trumpet where Jesus claims rulership forever and ever), and tribulation. what should be next? An appearance in the clouds of Jesus, saints in heaven, and the wrath of God, followed by Jesus claiming His Kingdom.

and that's exactly what happens from Revelation 12-19.
Tribulation (end of Rev 12, and Rev 13), an appearance of the Lord in the Clouds (Rev 14), saints in heaven (Rev 15), the wrath of God (Rev 15-16), and Jesus claiming His kingdom (Rev 19)

There are 2 characteristically different events, 1 at the end of the Tribulation but before the wrath of God, and one after the wrath of God.

Why do you say there are saints in heaven?

Jamdoc said:

Correct, there are actually 5, if you count Revelation 16..

however. 2 of the comings are like each other, and the other 2 comings are different from that one

Revelation 6 and 14 are an appearance in the clouds, just before the wrath of God. In Revelation 8-11 the wrath of God is represented by the 7 trumpets, after the appearance in the clouds at the 6th seal. The 7th seal brings out the 7 trumpets. At the 7th Trumpet, Jesus claims His kingdom.

So there tribulation (the first 5 seals), an appearance in the clouds (6th seal), saints in heaven (chapter 7), the wrath of God on earth (the first 6 trumpets), and then Jesus claiming His kingdom (7th trumpet), in that order, from Revelation 6-11.

Revelation 12 starts at Jesus' birth, clear Chronological break. and then we go back to Satan ruling and giving power to the beast (clearly not after the 7th trumpet where Jesus claims rulership forever and ever), and tribulation. what should be next? An appearance in the clouds of Jesus, saints in heaven, and the wrath of God, followed by Jesus claiming His Kingdom.

and that's exactly what happens from Revelation 12-19.
Tribulation (end of Rev 12, and Rev 13), an appearance of the Lord in the Clouds (Rev 14), saints in heaven (Rev 15), the wrath of God (Rev 15-16), and Jesus claiming His kingdom (Rev 19)

There are 2 characteristically different events, 1 at the end of the Tribulation but before the wrath of God, and one after the wrath of God.

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Just curious why you say there are saints in heaven? Could you please just show what verses you think indicate that? Thanks, so much.

Yosoyguapo said:

Why do you say there are saints in heaven?



Just curious why you say there are saints in heaven? Could you please just show what verses you think indicate that? Thanks, so much.

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Revelation 7 and Revelation 15

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

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Okay so first, until the 7th trumpet, until Armageddon, Jesus has not set His throne on Earth. Revelation 11:15 states that the kingdoms of the Earth are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. That means that that just happened, it's a change from the previous status where Dominion belonged to Satan as the god of this world.
So, the throne of God is in heaven, also the 24 elders, the 4 beasts, that's all in Heaven, John has been witnessing all this from heaven, as shown starting in Revelation 4.

now Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

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Still in heaven, John witnesses the saints in heaven, again, just like in Revelation 7, praising God... after Jesus appeared on the clouds.

It's consistent.
It's 2 witnesses of the same event.

In both cases, the saints went through the Great Tribulation (sorry Pretribbers your doctrine is unbiblical) but did not go through the wrath of God.

Revelation 14 has two harvests.
The first is done by Jesus
and those are not put through the wrath of God.
The second harvest is done by an angel, and those that are harvested are called the clusters of the vine of the earth.. aka, earth dwellers, not citizens of heaven.. and those are put through the wrath of God.
That first harvest done by Jesus? I believe that's the rapture, and the result is the saints singing in heaven as in Revelation 15:2-4.

ewq1938 said:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

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This is true but John distinguishes them as souls at that point in time.
but in Revelation 7 and 15 they are not described as souls, and they are wearing the garments... things that people with bodies do, also carrying objects in hands.. another thing that is done by people with bodies.

My objective is not to argue or change your mind, it is up to God to show you what is true.
I held the view of ascending to heaven previously. But it is not taught in the bible.
With a wrong view you can make the mistake of interpreting scripture in that light and therefore arrive at wrong conclusions, such as here in the book of Revelation.

The belief that people go to heaven is a Platonic Greek view which has corrupted Christianity. It has never been the view of the OT Prophets or the NT Apostles of Christ.
The hope of the Old Testament is Eternal life through the resurrection of the body and to inherit the ''land'' as God promised Abraham and his seed.
The hope is the same in the NT.
Plato taught that to escape the physical corrupt body and ascend to heaven was a good thing.
Therefore death is our friend.
Paul taught that death was our enemy and only at the resurrection would we see victory, that is the opposite of Platonism and a belief in ascending to heaven at death.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I am telling you a mystery. Not all of us will be laid to sleep, but we all will be changed299 52 in an instant, in the blink of the eye, in the last trumpet. For He will sound the trumpet300 and the dead will be aroused non-corrupt, and we will be changed. 53 For this corrupt thing301 [is] required to put on302 non-corruption, and this dying thing to put on immortality. 54 But whenever303 this corrupt thing should put on non-corruption, and this dying thing should put on immortality, then will occur the word which has been written, “Death was swallowed into victory.”304 55 Death, where is your sting? Grave, where is your victory? 56.

*299 John 11:25-26
*300 This is the Jubilee Trumpet, sounded on the Day of Atonement (Tishri 10) every 50th year, (Lev. 25:9; Zech. 9:14; Matt. 24:29-31; 1 Thess. 4:16).
*301 The corpse that is buried
*302 The verb implies to clothe one’s self. Thus, the mortal, human body will be clothed with God’s immortality in the resurrection. It is significant that Paul did not use the word “become,” change from one state to a different state. This implies that immortality in the resurrection will always remain dependent upon God, the only one who is inherently immortal (1 Tim. 6:16).
*303 It is important to note that Paul places victory over our enemy, death, at the resurrection at Christ’s return. The Platonism of the Corinthians saw the alleged release of the immortal ghost from the body as victory over the prison of physical matter. Most of modern Christianity makes the same mistake.
*304 Isa. 25:8 LXX

Revelation 4:2 Immediately I came to be in the Breath [Spirit],
* John was not bodily caught up into the sky as is often supposed (John 3:13; Acts 2:34). Rather, “in the Breath” he was allowed to see the spiritual realm as Steven did while remaining bodily on the land (Acts 7:55-56). This is the same mechanism Jesus uses to observe the local assemblies (Rev. 5:6). See also Rev. 1:10; 17:3, 21:10.
4: Twenty-four thrones encircling God’s Throne.
1. 24 “elders” (refers to highest rank)
a. The 24 courses of the sons of Aaron had charge over the altar of incense (1
Chron. 6:49; 1 Chron. 24:1-19), as Zacharias (Luke 1:5-11)
b. The 24 elders act as priests, Rev. 5:8
c. The 24 elders are angelic beings, Rev. 8:3 And another messenger came and stood before the altar having a
golden censer. And much incense was given him that he should offer it with the prayers
of all the holy ones upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
***No human In Heaven except Jesus***
John 3:13 And no one74 has ascended75 into the sky except the one who descended76 out of the
sky, the Son of Man, the one being in the the sky.78
*75 The perfect tense of the verb requires that after ascending, the Son remained in the sky at the time these words stated. This is proof that verse 13 was John’s commentary after the ascension, rather than being part of Jesus’ dialogue with Nicodemus.
*76 In John 6:38 Jesus said, “I have descended out of the sky” using the perfect tense of the verb (which requires a continued result of a past action) because He was still present on earth at the time. Here John used the aorist tense (which only describes a past action) because Jesus was no longer on earth when John made this statement. Other passages that refer to the Son of God having descended from the sky are: John 3:31; John 6:33,38,41-42,46,51,62; John 8:23; John 13:3; John 16:27-28; Eph. 4:9-10 (cf. Psalm 139:13-16).
*77 This is a reference to Solomon’s riddle concerning the identity of the Son of God. “Who has ascended into the sky, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?” (Prov. 30:4)
*78 The Son of God descended from the sky to become flesh, then He ascended to the sky as Son of Man. That He was in the sky (Psalm 110:1) when John wrote this is not only shown from the clause, “the one being in the sky,” but also from the perfect tense of the verb translated “has ascended” which requires that the result of ascending continued to the present when John wrote this statement. This is proof that verse 13 was not spoken by Jesus, but was John’s commentary, from the perspective of when he wrote this Gospel after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Revelation 7:9 After these things I observed, and look, a crowd of many [people] which no one could count, from every nation, tribes and peoples and languages, having [come to] stand before the throne157 and before the Lamb, having been dressed158 in white robes, with palm branches159 in their hands.
*157 The resurrected holy ones stand in view of the throne in the sky which Daniel saw (Dan. 7:9-10).
*158 While white robes were appointed for each of the martyrs who are resting in sleep (Rev. 6:11), being “clothed” implies the resurrection of the body (1 Cor. 15:51-57; 2 Cor. 5:4).
*159 This is a distinct feature of the Feast of Tabernacles celebration (Lev. 23:39-43). It is prophetic of the Kingdom of the Anointed one, and will be celebrated after He returns as King (Zech. 14:16-20).

Bereans Bible Institute
4windsfellowships.net
Module XI – Revelation
Lesson 21 – Revelation 7:9 – 8:1
I. The Saints of the Most High Inherit the Kingdom (Dan. 7:27).
A. Vs. 9
1. People from every nationality stand before the Throne and the Lamb
a. The reason the Gospel must be proclaimed to all nations before the end
comes is so every nation can have a ruling class and a priest class in the
Kingdom (Rev. 20:4-6).
b. These people are not in heaven during the tribulation, but on earth as
the Kingdom is inagurated.
1. “before” ἐνώπιόν means “in view of,” not necessarily in the
immediate location. It implies the subject’s [God’s] attention has
been drawn to the object [the great multitude] (See: LXX – Ex.
32:33; Num. 13:33; Deut. 1:8; NT – Luke 1:15,74-75; 1 John 3:22)
2. Dressed in white robes, wedding garments, immortality – resurrected (1 Cor.
15:51-54; 2 Cor. 5:4-5; Rev. 19:6-8).
3. Waving palm branches for the 7-day Feast of Tabernacles (Lev. 23:33-36,39-43)
a. A wedding feast is 7 days (Gen. 29:27).
b. The wedding feast of the Lamb occurs after the tribulation (Rev. 19:6-8)
1. Isaiah 25:6-10
a. The wedding feast is “in this mountain” (Zion)
b. He will swallow up death in victory (KJV/LXX) quoted by
Paul in 1 Cor. 15:54.
c. Anniversary every year thereafter (Zech. 14:16-21).
B. Vs. 10 The saints praise BEFORE the throne of God
C. Vs. 11-12 The angels SURROUND the throne of God
D. Vs. 13-15 The Identification of the Great Multitude
1. Who are they and where are they from?
a. The emerged from the great tribulation (Rev. 3:10)
b. They are now in view of the Throne of God, who dwells among them
c. They serve Him in His Temple, according to Jesus’ promise (Rev. 3:12)
d. The Throne of God will replace the ark of the covenant (Jer. 3:16-17 &
Ezek. 43:1-7).
e. God dwells among men (v. 15; Rev. 21:3; Psalm 5:11 LXX).
E. Vs. 16 Quoting Isaiah 49:10
F. Vs. 17 The Lamb leads the sheep (Micah 2:12-13; 5:3-4; 7:14-15; John 10:1-5); & tears
wiped from their eyes (Isa. 25:8).
G. Rev. 8:1 the silence in heaven for ½ hour symbolizes that the non-stop, day and
night, worship described in Rev. 4-5 has ceased in heaven.

Revelation 7:14 And I said to him: “My master, you have observed.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who emerge160 out from161 the great tribulation,162 and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His Temple. 163 And He who sits on the throne will tabernacle over them. 164
*160 Present tense verbs in Greek often refer to the future. In such cases, the present tense stresses certainty, just as in English.
*161 This passage unquestionably shows the outcome of the promise made in Rev. 3:10.
*162 The same term θλῖψις μεγάλη (great tribulation) is used in Matthew 24:21. Also in 1 Maccabees 9:27, the same term appears in reference to the persecution under Antiochus Epiphanies, and a similar statement follows: “So was there a great tribulation in Israel, the like whereof was not since the time that a prophet was not seen among them.”
*163 The Throne of God will be in His Temple in Jerusalem (cf. Jer. 3:16-17 & Ezek. 43:1-7). This is also the “Temple” in which Jesus promised the Philadelphians to make the faithful permanent pillars (Rev. 3:12).

Revelation 15:5 And after these things I observed, and the Temple342 of the tabernacle of witness in the sky343 was opened.

*342 “Temple” here appears to refer to the Holy of Holies only, which housed only the Ark of the Covenant.
*343 The “tent of witness” refers to the Tabernacle that Moses built. The “Temple of the tent of witness in the sky” refers to the celestial Temple which was the pattern for the Tabernacle that Moses built. (Heb. 8:5, 11-12, 23-24).

Bereans Bible Institute
Module XI – Revelation
Lesson 38 – Revelation 15:5 – 16:20
I. Rev. 15:5-8 The “Sanctuary” in the sky
A. Different Greek terms translated “Temple”
1. τὸ ἱερὸν (hieron – neuter) refers to the structure(s) including entire complex
(Matt. 24:1).
2. ὁ ναὸς (naos – masculine) the inner sanctuary behind the veil where God’s
presence dwelled, only visited on Yom Kippur (Matt. 27:51).
B. God showed Moses the pattern for the Tabernacle (Ex. 25:8-9; Ex. 26:30; Heb. 8:1-5;
Heb. 9:2-3,11-12).
C. ὁ ναὸς “Sanctuaries” (inner Temple) in end-time drama
1. The “Sanctuary” in heaven (always ὁ ναὸς) – God’s Throne behind the veil
(sky) – described in Rev. 4-5, court scene in Dan. 7.
2. The “Sanctuary” in Jerusalem during the testimony of the 1260-day Testimony
of 2 Witnesses (Rev. 11:1-3) & 144,000 worship outside. Ark represents God’s
presence under the Mosaic Covenant.
3. Antichrist defiles τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ (“the Sanctuary of God”) (2 Thess. 2:4);
Ark of the Covenant removed to heavenly Sanctuary (Rev. 11:19).
4. Kingdom “Sanctuary” in Jerusalem, full access to overcomers (Rev. 3:12);
1. Ark of the Covenant remains in heaven, Throne takes its place as the
new “Sanctuary” without a veil of separation (Jer. 3:16-17; Ezek. 43:4-7;
Rev. 21:22). No “Ark of the Covenant” means the Law of Moses is
concluded.
D. “Sanctuary” in the sky opened in Revelation:
1. Rev. 11:19 @ 7th Trumpet, ark of the covenant in heaven
2. Rev. 14:15,17 @ Harvest of the wicked
3. Rev. 15:5-8; 16:1 @ 7 Bowls
II. Rev. 16:1-21 Compounding 7 judgments
A. 1
st Bowl (vss. 1-2) ulcers upon worshippers of the beast
B. 2
nd Bowl (vs. 3) sea turned to blood
C. 3rd Bowl (vs. 4-7) rivers & springs turned to blood
D. 4th Bowl (vs. 8-9) sun scorches men – do not repent
E. 5th Bowl (vss. 10-11) darkness, (note still suffering from 1st bowl), no repentance
F. 6th Bowl (vss. 12-16) Great deception (unclean spirits) gathering nations:
1. God gathers the nations (Joel 3:2,10; 2 Thess. 2:7-12; Rev. 19:19)
2. Warning to the assemblies when nations are gathering (v. 15)
G. 7th Bowl (vss. 17-19) Jerusalem divided into three parts (Zech. 13:1-9); massive
earthquakes world-wide; meteorites (hail) strike mankind. God reminded to not only
judge Jerusalem, but also the current persecutor of God’s people – Rome.

http://www.4windsfellowships.net/bbi_notes/11/37.pdf

Jamdoc said:

This is true but John distinguishes them as souls at that point in time.
but in Revelation 7 and 15 they are not described as souls, and they are wearing the garments... things that people with bodies do, also carrying objects in hands.. another thing that is done by people with bodies.

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If they are in heaven why are they under the altar?

[LGV] Revelation 6:9 And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw beneath the altar141 the souls142 of those slain for the word of God and the witness they were having. 10 And they called with a loud voice,143 saying: “How much longer, Master, holy and true, before You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the land?”144 11 And a white robe was granted for each of them. And they were told that they will rest145 a little longer until their fellow servants and their brothers, those about to be killed like them, may be completed.146

*141 The altar mentioned here is the bronze altar of sacrifice which was outside the Temple. In Heb. 9:11-15, 23-28, Jesus is portrayed as the once-for-all sacrifice, shedding His blood on the land but afterwards entering the celestial Temple with His own blood, just as the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. In Temple imagery, the martyrs follow in Jesus’ footsteps, shedding their blood on the bronze altar (on the land). The blood both man and beast is called their “souls” (Gen. 9:4-5; Lev. 17:11-14). Jesus offered His own “soul” as a sacrifice for our sins (Isa. 53:10,11,12). Animal sacrifices were killed in the Temple courtyard by having their throats cut, and the ψυχὴ (soul/blood) was caught and poured out at the base of the altar (Lev. 4:7,18,34; Lev. 5:9). Thus, the “soul/blood” belonging to the martyrs is portrayed as “under the altar.”
*142 The Greek word is ψυχὴ which according to Genesis 9:4-5 & Lev. 17:11,14 is the blood of both man and beast.
*143 Jesus portrayed Abel as the prototype martyr (Luke 11:50-51). The soul/blood of Abel – the prototype martyr – called out to God from the ground to be avenged (Gen. 4:10). This same symbolic imagery is being applied to all of the martyrs. The sense is the same as with Abel’s blood crying out to God, that God remembers the injustice and will avenge His holy ones, and will restore them to life through resurrection.
*144 Not only does Scripture symbolically portray the blood of Abel calling out to be avenged, but also in Ezekiel 37:11 the dry bones of the patriarchs and the whole house of Israel cry out from their graves for the fulfillment of the promise of resurrection and eternal inheritance. “Then He said to me, ‘Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, “Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!” Therefore prophesy and say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.’” (Ezek. 37:11-12). Such allegorical language does not mean that blood or bones actually speak. Rather, these things reinforce the idea that God will never forget to avenge the blood of His servants or forget His promises of the inheritance to His people.
*145 Death for the righteous is portrayed as “sleep” both in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:2) and the New Testament (Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:14). 146 Persecution and martyrdom of Jesus’ followers was also described by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, (Matt. 24:9-13).

Notes from Tim Warner
Revelation 6
“Souls” is assumed to be “ghosts,” but no explanation for why they are “under the altar.”
3. In Ezek. 37:11-12, the “dry bones” cry out “Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!”

B. Vs. 9 The Blood of the Martyrs
1. The altar of sacrifice is not in heaven, but outside the Temple, the place of killing, not to be confused with the “golden altar” of incense {Rev. 8:3}).

2. “Souls” is blood, both man and beast (Gen. 9:4-5; Lev. 17:11-14)

3. The souls/blood of animal sacrifices was poured out at the base of the altar (Lev. 4:7,18,34; Lev. 5:9).

C. Vs. 10 The “souls/bloods” call out to God for vengeance 1. Abel’s blood cried out for vengeance (Gen. 4:10-11)

2. Abel was the prototype martyr (Luke 11:50-51)

D. Vs. 11 God’s response”
1. White robes given to them, “wedding garments” (Matt. 22:11-14; Rev. 19:7)
2. They must “rest/sleep” a little longer (Dan. 12:2; Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:14; Rev. 14:13)
3. Their number must be completed, more martyrs to be slain by the Beast
4. Martyrs resurrected and reigning (Rev. 20:4-6)

Yosoyguapo said:

My objective is not to argue or change your mind, it is up to God to show you what is true.
I held the view of ascending to heaven previously. But it is not taught in the bible.
With a wrong view you can make the mistake of interpreting scripture in that light and therefore arrive at wrong conclusions, such as here in the book of Revelation.

The belief that people go to heaven is a Platonic Greek view which has corrupted Christianity. It has never been the view of the OT Prophets or the NT Apostles of Christ.
The hope of the Old Testament is Eternal life through the resurrection of the body and to inherit the ''land'' as God promised Abraham and his seed.
The hope is the same in the NT.
Plato taught that to escape the physical corrupt body and ascend to heaven was a good thing.
Therefore death is our friend.
Paul taught that death was our enemy and only at the resurrection would we see victory, that is the opposite of Platonism and a belief in ascending to heaven at death.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I am telling you a mystery. Not all of us will be laid to sleep, but we all will be changed299 52 in an instant, in the blink of the eye, in the last trumpet. For He will sound the trumpet300 and the dead will be aroused non-corrupt, and we will be changed. 53 For this corrupt thing301 [is] required to put on302 non-corruption, and this dying thing to put on immortality. 54 But whenever303 this corrupt thing should put on non-corruption, and this dying thing should put on immortality, then will occur the word which has been written, “Death was swallowed into victory.”304 55 Death, where is your sting? Grave, where is your victory? 56.

*299 John 11:25-26
*300 This is the Jubilee Trumpet, sounded on the Day of Atonement (Tishri 10) every 50th year, (Lev. 25:9; Zech. 9:14; Matt. 24:29-31; 1 Thess. 4:16).
*301 The corpse that is buried
*302 The verb implies to clothe one’s self. Thus, the mortal, human body will be clothed with God’s immortality in the resurrection. It is significant that Paul did not use the word “become,” change from one state to a different state. This implies that immortality in the resurrection will always remain dependent upon God, the only one who is inherently immortal (1 Tim. 6:16).
*303 It is important to note that Paul places victory over our enemy, death, at the resurrection at Christ’s return. The Platonism of the Corinthians saw the alleged release of the immortal ghost from the body as victory over the prison of physical matter. Most of modern Christianity makes the same mistake.
*304 Isa. 25:8 LXX

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I'm not adhering to a platonic view at all.
The intermediate state and being raptured to heaven is a temporary stop, while God pours out His wrath on the Earth.

We are pointed to Noah and Lot by Jesus in Luke 17
Both of which were taken out of a dangerous situation just before the wrath of God struck.

so I keep pointing to the 6th seal as when this happens?
Revelation 6:17 shows that as this 6th seal happens, that the wrath of God comes next.
Sure enough, the 7th seal is broken, and half an hour later, fire and hail and blood rain down on the earth and burn up all the green grass and 1/3 of the trees.
So the same day that Jesus comes to gather the saints.. God starts pouring out His wrath.
Just like the days of Noah, and the days of Lot. Noah boarded the Ark, the flood started the same day. Lot was pulled out of Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down on it the same day. Noah was on the Ark for a year and 10 days. so it's not like it was instant destruction, then bam, all done. The wrath of God persisted for awhile, as do the trumpets and vials.

As for other raptures to heaven? Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, the two witnesses in Revelation 11.
The doctrine is there.

Furthermore.. this goes back to Old Testament, the connection between the Resurrection, and the rapture to protect the saints during the final indignation (God's wrath)

Isaiah 26:19-21

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

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what chambers is Isaiah talking about? Notice he includes himself among the resurrected first. They are resurrected and THEN go to the chambers to hide from the indignation on the Earth.

Well.. these ones

John 14

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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So... Jesus left earth, to prepare a place for us. Where did He go? Heaven.
He says He'll receive us to Him, so that where He is, we'll be.
He's in heaven, the place He has prepared for us is in heaven, so, He's receiving us to heaven.

It is a temporary layover, you are right the final promise is a New Earth, in Physical resurrected bodies... but He still comes back, takes us to heaven, to protect us temporarily while the earth is basically destroyed.

also something I'm getting pointed out about right now in Isaiah 26
verse 21 again

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

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Revelation 16

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

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It's amazingly consistent how across thousands of years we can find Revelation in the Old Testament.

Revelation 20:4 And I observed thrones and those seated on them, and authority to judge was given to them. And the souls439 of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, even because of the Logos of God,440 who did not worship the beast or his image and did not receive the mark on their forehead or on their hand, they also come to life and reign with the Anointed one a thousand years.441 5 (But the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years should expire). This is the first resurrection.442

*439 The martyrs, see Rev. 6:9-11
*440 Rev. 19:13 441 Many translations give the impression that only the martyrs are raised at the first resurrection. However, the text distinguishes the martyrs of the tribulation from the larger group of faithful holy ones who John saw seated on thrones.
*442 This statement rules out a pretribulation resurrection. (Compare 1 Cor. 15:22-25).

Yosoyguapo said:

If they are in heaven why are they under the altar?

[LGV] Revelation 6:9 And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw beneath the altar141 the souls142 of those slain for the word of God and the witness they were having. 10 And they called with a loud voice,143 saying: “How much longer, Master, holy and true, before You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the land?”144 11 And a white robe was granted for each of them. And they were told that they will rest145 a little longer until their fellow servants and their brothers, those about to be killed like them, may be completed.146

*141 The altar mentioned here is the bronze altar of sacrifice which was outside the Temple. In Heb. 9:11-15, 23-28, Jesus is portrayed as the once-for-all sacrifice, shedding His blood on the land but afterwards entering the celestial Temple with His own blood, just as the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. In Temple imagery, the martyrs follow in Jesus’ footsteps, shedding their blood on the bronze altar (on the land). The blood both man and beast is called their “souls” (Gen. 9:4-5; Lev. 17:11-14). Jesus offered His own “soul” as a sacrifice for our sins (Isa. 53:10,11,12). Animal sacrifices were killed in the Temple courtyard by having their throats cut, and the ψυχὴ (soul/blood) was caught and poured out at the base of the altar (Lev. 4:7,18,34; Lev. 5:9). Thus, the “soul/blood” belonging to the martyrs is portrayed as “under the altar.”
*142 The Greek word is ψυχὴ which according to Genesis 9:4-5 & Lev. 17:11,14 is the blood of both man and beast.
*143 Jesus portrayed Abel as the prototype martyr (Luke 11:50-51). The soul/blood of Abel – the prototype martyr – called out to God from the ground to be avenged (Gen. 4:10). This same symbolic imagery is being applied to all of the martyrs. The sense is the same as with Abel’s blood crying out to God, that God remembers the injustice and will avenge His holy ones, and will restore them to life through resurrection.
*144 Not only does Scripture symbolically portray the blood of Abel calling out to be avenged, but also in Ezekiel 37:11 the dry bones of the patriarchs and the whole house of Israel cry out from their graves for the fulfillment of the promise of resurrection and eternal inheritance. “Then He said to me, ‘Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, “Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!” Therefore prophesy and say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.’” (Ezek. 37:11-12). Such allegorical language does not mean that blood or bones actually speak. Rather, these things reinforce the idea that God will never forget to avenge the blood of His servants or forget His promises of the inheritance to His people.
*145 Death for the righteous is portrayed as “sleep” both in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:2) and the New Testament (Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:14). 146 Persecution and martyrdom of Jesus’ followers was also described by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, (Matt. 24:9-13).

Notes from Tim Warner
Revelation 6
“Souls” is assumed to be “ghosts,” but no explanation for why they are “under the altar.”
3. In Ezek. 37:11-12, the “dry bones” cry out “Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!”

B. Vs. 9 The Blood of the Martyrs
1. The altar of sacrifice is not in heaven, but outside the Temple, the place of killing, not to be confused with the “golden altar” of incense {Rev. 8:3}).

2. “Souls” is blood, both man and beast (Gen. 9:4-5; Lev. 17:11-14)

3. The souls/blood of animal sacrifices was poured out at the base of the altar (Lev. 4:7,18,34; Lev. 5:9).

C. Vs. 10 The “souls/bloods” call out to God for vengeance 1. Abel’s blood cried out for vengeance (Gen. 4:10-11)

2. Abel was the prototype martyr (Luke 11:50-51)

D. Vs. 11 God’s response”
1. White robes given to them, “wedding garments” (Matt. 22:11-14; Rev. 19:7)
2. They must “rest/sleep” a little longer (Dan. 12:2; Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:14; Rev. 14:13)
3. Their number must be completed, more martyrs to be slain by the Beast
4. Martyrs resurrected and reigning (Rev. 20:4-6)

Click to expand...

Revelation describes heaven like the temple, it's the same layout, with the altar, the sea (Solomon's temple had a sea of brass, God's temple it's a sea of glass), etc.
as Revelation 15 points out, there's a temple of God in heaven.
so the altar they were under, was not the temple in Jerusalem, but God's temple in heaven.

Yosoyguapo said:

Revelation 20:4 And I observed thrones and those seated on them, and authority to judge was given to them. And the souls439 of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, even because of the Logos of God,440 who did not worship the beast or his image and did not receive the mark on their forehead or on their hand, they also come to life and reign with the Anointed one a thousand years.441 5 (But the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years should expire). This is the first resurrection.442

*439 The martyrs, see Rev. 6:9-11
*440 Rev. 19:13 441 Many translations give the impression that only the martyrs are raised at the first resurrection. However, the text distinguishes the martyrs of the tribulation from the larger group of faithful holy ones who John saw seated on thrones.
*442 This statement rules out a pretribulation resurrection. (Compare 1 Cor. 15:22-25).

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yes, I agree, not pretribulation.
but
pre wrath.

There is a difference between tribulation, and the wrath of God.
Tribulation, is persecution done by men, you can call it Satan's wrath or Man's wrath or Antichrist's wrath if you want.
But it's not God's wrath. that is the first 5 seals.
in fact the souls of the martyrs in the 5th seal cry out how long before God starts His wrath, and Revelation 6:17 clearly announces that the wrath of God has come.
Before 6th seal, Tribulation, after 6th seal, wrath of God.

Jamdoc said:

I'm not adhering to a platonic view at all.
The intermediate state and being raptured to heaven is a temporary stop, while God pours out His wrath on the Earth.

We are pointed to Noah and Lot by Jesus in Luke 17
Both of which were taken out of a dangerous situation just before the wrath of God struck.

so I keep pointing to the 6th seal as when this happens?
Revelation 6:17 shows that as this 6th seal happens, that the wrath of God comes next.
Sure enough, the 7th seal is broken, and half an hour later, fire and hail and blood rain down on the earth and burn up all the green grass and 1/3 of the trees.
So the same day that Jesus comes to gather the saints.. God starts pouring out His wrath.
Just like the days of Noah, and the days of Lot. Noah boarded the Ark, the flood started the same day. Lot was pulled out of Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down on it the same day. Noah was on the Ark for a year and 10 days. so it's not like it was instant destruction, then bam, all done. The wrath of God persisted for awhile, as do the trumpets and vials.

As for other raptures to heaven? Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, the two witnesses in Revelation 11.
The doctrine is there.

Furthermore.. this goes back to Old Testament, the connection between the Resurrection, and the rapture to protect the saints during the final indignation (God's wrath)

Isaiah 26:19-21


what chambers is Isaiah talking about? Notice he includes himself among the resurrected first. They are resurrected and THEN go to the chambers to hide from the indignation on the Earth.

Well.. these ones

John 14


So... Jesus left earth, to prepare a place for us. Where did He go? Heaven.
He says He'll receive us to Him, so that where He is, we'll be.
He's in heaven, the place He has prepared for us is in heaven, so, He's receiving us to heaven.

It is a temporary layover, you are right the final promise is a New Earth, in Physical resurrected bodies... but He still comes back, takes us to heaven, to protect us temporarily while the earth is basically destroyed.

also something I'm getting pointed out about right now in Isaiah 26
verse 21 again


Revelation 16


It's amazingly consistent how across thousands of years we can find Revelation in the Old Testament.

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The Chambers are at the Temple in Jerusalem.

A. “My Father’s House” and “Many Mansions” are on earth. (John 14:1-3)
1. “Mansions” means “dwellings” or “abodes”
2. “Prepare” does not mean “build,” but to make something ready.
3. “My Father’s House” is the Temple in Jerusalem
a. Herod’s Temple (John 2:15-17)
b. Solomon’s Temple (2 Chronicles 2:1, 7:16)
c. Kingdom Temple (Isaiah 2:2-4, Joel 3:18)
4. All of these Temples contained “many abodes” for the priests
a. Solomon’s Temple (1 Kings 6:5-10 & 1 Chron. 9:26,27)
b. Herod’s Temple – Josephus: “Now, about the sides of the lower part of the temple, there were little houses, with passages out of one into another; there were a great many of them, and they were of three stories high; there were also entrances on each side into them from the gate of the temple. But the superior part of the temple had no such little houses any further, because the temple was there narrower ….” (Wars of the Jews, Bk. 5, ch. 5)
5. Jesus went to make the way to evict the former priesthood, and make the way for His followers to become the new priesthood in the Kingdom.
6. His “going away” refers to everything He did: His arrest, trial at the Temple, crucifixion, resurrection, current High Priesthood.
B. “The Kingdom of Heaven” is not in Heaven, but on earth. (Matt. 5:3,10)
1. cf. (Matt. 5:5 & Psalm 37:11)
2. The “Kingdom of the God of Heaven” (Dan. 2:37,44)
C. “Rewards” stored in heaven, but brought to earth by Jesus. (Matt. 6:19-21)
1. (Rev. 22:12; Isa. 40:10; Isa. 62:11)
D. The “New Jerusalem” is on earth. (Rev. 21:1-5)
1. Coming down from heaven (v. 2)
2. The tent of God is with men, he will live with them (v. 3)
3. God makes everything new (v. 5)

[LGV] John 14:1“Do not let your hearts 221 be troubled. You trust unto God; trust also unto Me. 2 There are many chambers222 in the House of My Father, 223 otherwise I [would have] told you. I am going to make room for you.224 3 And if I should leave and make room for you, I am coming again and I will gather you to Myself, so that you may also be where I am. 225 4 And where I am going you have observed, and the path you have observed.”226 5 Thomas says to Him, “Master, we have not observed where you are going, and how can we observe the path?” 6 Jesus says to him, “I am the Path227 and the Truth228 and the Life.229 No one comes toward the Father except through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would have known the Father also. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

*222 Solomon’s Temple included three-story “side chambers” all around the Temple structure, on the south, west, and north. These were temporarily dwellings for the Levites during their rotation duties at the Temple (1 Kings 6:5-10; 1 Chron. 9:24-33; 1 Chron. 23:27-28; 1 Chron. 28:11-13). After the Temple’s destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, the rebuilt Temple also had these chambers for the priests and Levites (Ezra 8:29). Yet the Kingdom Temple will also have these many chambers in three stories (Ezek. 41:6-11,26; Ezek. 42:1-14). These three-story chambers of the Kingdom Temple are what Jesus referred to. The disciples will have a place in these chambers (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:28-30).
*223 Jesus previously referred to the Temple in Jerusalem as the House of His Father (John 2:16; Luke 2:49).
*224 Jesus gave a series of parables concerning God’s “Vineyard” in Matthew 20-21, borrowed from Isaiah 5. The last parable showed that the current Levitical priesthood was to be overthrown and evicted from God’s house, and replaced in the Kingdom by a new Temple priesthood of Christ’s faithful followers. See also: Rev. 3:12; Rev. 20:4-6.
*225 John 17:24, referring to Christ’s reigning as King on Mount Zion (Psalm 2).
*226 The disciples were familiar with Psalm 110:1 which explains where the Messiah must go, to be seated at the Father’s side until His enemies were to be made His footstool. They were also familiar with Psalm 22, which describes the Messiah’s suffering crucifixion (vss. 1-21) prior to His reign (vss. 22-31). The path to the Father’s right hand in the sky went through Calvary. But as is apparent from the following discussion, the disciples had not yet connected the dots, or fully understood when Jesus previously told them that He must be crucified (Luke 24:6-7; John 12:23-32). Then He must go alone with His own blood into the Holy of Holies in the Temple in the sky to perform His high-priestly service. Only our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek was allowed to go into the sky in person (Heb. 8:1-6; Heb. 9:7,23-28).
Notes from Tim Warner 4windsfellowships.net

Yosoyguapo said:

The Chambers are at the Temple in Jerusalem.

A. “My Father’s House” and “Many Mansions” are on earth. (John 14:1-3)
1. “Mansions” means “dwellings” or “abodes”
2. “Prepare” does not mean “build,” but to make something ready.
3. “My Father’s House” is the Temple in Jerusalem
a. Herod’s Temple (John 2:15-17)
b. Solomon’s Temple (2 Chronicles 2:1, 7:16)
c. Kingdom Temple (Isaiah 2:2-4, Joel 3:18)
4. All of these Temples contained “many abodes” for the priests
a. Solomon’s Temple (1 Kings 6:5-10 & 1 Chron. 9:26,27)
b. Herod’s Temple – Josephus: “Now, about the sides of the lower part of the temple, there were little houses, with passages out of one into another; there were a great many of them, and they were of three stories high; there were also entrances on each side into them from the gate of the temple. But the superior part of the temple had no such little houses any further, because the temple was there narrower ….” (Wars of the Jews, Bk. 5, ch. 5)
5. Jesus went to make the way to evict the former priesthood, and make the way for His followers to become the new priesthood in the Kingdom.
6. His “going away” refers to everything He did: His arrest, trial at the Temple, crucifixion, resurrection, current High Priesthood.
B. “The Kingdom of Heaven” is not in Heaven, but on earth. (Matt. 5:3,10)
1. cf. (Matt. 5:5 & Psalm 37:11)
2. The “Kingdom of the God of Heaven” (Dan. 2:37,44)
C. “Rewards” stored in heaven, but brought to earth by Jesus. (Matt. 6:19-21)
1. (Rev. 22:12; Isa. 40:10; Isa. 62:11)
D. The “New Jerusalem” is on earth. (Rev. 21:1-5)
1. Coming down from heaven (v. 2)
2. The tent of God is with men, he will live with them (v. 3)
3. God makes everything new (v. 5)

[LGV] John 14:1“Do not let your hearts 221 be troubled. You trust unto God; trust also unto Me. 2 There are many chambers222 in the House of My Father, 223 otherwise I [would have] told you. I am going to make room for you.224 3 And if I should leave and make room for you, I am coming again and I will gather you to Myself, so that you may also be where I am. 225 4 And where I am going you have observed, and the path you have observed.”226 5 Thomas says to Him, “Master, we have not observed where you are going, and how can we observe the path?” 6 Jesus says to him, “I am the Path227 and the Truth228 and the Life.229 No one comes toward the Father except through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would have known the Father also. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

*222 Solomon’s Temple included three-story “side chambers” all around the Temple structure, on the south, west, and north. These were temporarily dwellings for the Levites during their rotation duties at the Temple (1 Kings 6:5-10; 1 Chron. 9:24-33; 1 Chron. 23:27-28; 1 Chron. 28:11-13). After the Temple’s destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, the rebuilt Temple also had these chambers for the priests and Levites (Ezra 8:29). Yet the Kingdom Temple will also have these many chambers in three stories (Ezek. 41:6-11,26; Ezek. 42:1-14). These three-story chambers of the Kingdom Temple are what Jesus referred to. The disciples will have a place in these chambers (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:28-30).
*223 Jesus previously referred to the Temple in Jerusalem as the House of His Father (John 2:16; Luke 2:49).
*224 Jesus gave a series of parables concerning God’s “Vineyard” in Matthew 20-21, borrowed from Isaiah 5. The last parable showed that the current Levitical priesthood was to be overthrown and evicted from God’s house, and replaced in the Kingdom by a new Temple priesthood of Christ’s faithful followers. See also: Rev. 3:12; Rev. 20:4-6.
*225 John 17:24, referring to Christ’s reigning as King on Mount Zion (Psalm 2).
*226 The disciples were familiar with Psalm 110:1 which explains where the Messiah must go, to be seated at the Father’s side until His enemies were to be made His footstool. They were also familiar with Psalm 22, which describes the Messiah’s suffering crucifixion (vss. 1-21) prior to His reign (vss. 22-31). The path to the Father’s right hand in the sky went through Calvary. But as is apparent from the following discussion, the disciples had not yet connected the dots, or fully understood when Jesus previously told them that He must be crucified (Luke 24:6-7; John 12:23-32). Then He must go alone with His own blood into the Holy of Holies in the Temple in the sky to perform His high-priestly service. Only our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek was allowed to go into the sky in person (Heb. 8:1-6; Heb. 9:7,23-28).
Notes from Tim Warner 4windsfellowships.net

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You're not going to protect all the believers in a physical temple on earth in a city that is going to be leveled by the earthquakes at the 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

an uncountable multitude at that.