THE UNSCRIPTURAL THEOLOGIES OF AMILLENNIALISM AND POSTMILLENNIALISM

sovereigngrace

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The Millennial age is said, by us Premills, to still have mortal, sin-infected inhabitants on the earth, just as today. But we also say that Satan is removed, allowing the world to enjoy a measure of peace and fulfillment. So no--it is not a ruthless, wicked world as we have today!

Satan is released for only a brief moment at the end of the Millennium, and quickly his fire is exterminated. Rather, he is thrown into the fire!

Although I do respect the fact that Amil was basically the eschatology of the Church for 2 millennia, it remains true that, AFAIK, the Church started out with Premil convictions. The central reason for giving up on Premil was the failure of Israel to realize the promise of inheriting God's Kingdom, and the Church then became the focus in the NT age.

But as we near the end of this age, I'm supposing, Israel has come back into the news, and Premil suddenly looks very viable. So I don't get hostile towards Amil, but I do have my own convictions on the matter. I now have the opportunity to find God true to His word, with respect to Israel's place in His Kingdom.

Inasmuch as Israel, in the present age, is not interested, as a majority, in Christianity, it seems necessary to have a literal Millennium following the return of Christ. I'm not Dispensational, but I do agree with that school that Israel has a place, as a nation, in future prophecy.

What you say about the Kingdom being present is true in some respects. Jesus said he would take the Kingdom from Israel and give it to another nation, which I assume to be the Roman nation. That means the Kingdom was already present in the OT era, when Israel possessed the Kingdom, and will continue to be present in the NT era, since Christian nations now possess it.

But the Kingdom, as much as it may be present, remains not yet *here.* Jesus said his Kingdom is "near" in the present age, and not yet *here.* Certainly there is a future Kingdom, beyond what we don't yet have at present, because Jesus prayed, "Thy Kingdom come."

An elementary study of the early Church fathers’ teachings over the first 100 years after the cross shows that they generally saw the second coming of Jesus Christ as “the end” or “the end of the world.” They believed all the righteous would be rescued to inherit a new perfected earth. The wicked would be destroyed with this current corrupt earth. This is standard Amillennial teaching! There is a notable silence from the early writers, apart from Papias. Nowhere does he quote any of the early Church fathers (apart from Papias) mention, or describe conditions on a future millennial earth or articulate any of the main tenets of the Premillennial belief. All we have is complete silence.

There is complete silence on a millennial existence in the first 100 years after the cross apart from Papias. Remember, Revelation was a later manuscript that was not believed to have gained wide influence outside of Asia Minor for quite a while. So, the absence of these early writers exegeting it is not strange.

Contrary to what many modern Dispensationalist apologists argue, the early church writers were not mainly Premillennialist. In fact, the doctrine, which seems to have had its origin in Asia Minor, was mainly limited to that area for many yrs.
 
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Timtofly

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I find it rich that Premils dismiss the current existence of the kingdom because there is evil in the world when their future millennium is overrun by evil and the wicked (as the sand of the sea). So, this is weak reasoning and a moot point.

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His intimate spiritual jurisdiction. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven) – the place where with the kingdom is centered and administrated. That is why Matthew frequently described the kingdom of God as the kingdom of heaven. Notwithstanding, it also includes the full extent of the true Church, the spiritual temple of God, the body of Christ on earth. It is therefore the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness is pre-eminent.

Whilst the kingdom is coming in all its final eternal glory at the coming of the Lord, the kingdom is here now spiritually.

The kingdom is sometimes described as “the kingdom of heaven” and at other times “the kingdom of God.” An elementary comparison between the two in the New Testament will show that “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” are just similar expressions to describe the one same Kingdom.

The term “the kingdom of God” refers to the One from whom it originates, whereas, the term “the kingdom of heaven” describes the place where it is centered. The word kingdom simply means ‘king [with a] domain’. It refers to the territory and the people over whom a King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the laws that administer that kingdom.

The word employed in the New Testament for ‘kingdom’ is the Greek word ‘basileia’ denoting ‘sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion’. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king – or a head, (2) a domain to rule over – namely subjects and territory, (3) and rules and laws which govern it.

The King in God’s kingdom is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And since we got saved we are His subjects. The laws that govern Christ’s spiritual kingdom are found in this precious Book. Jesus declared in Matthew 6:33, seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

Israel looked for a kingdom, and Christ brought it. The literalist Jews missed it as they had no concept of the spiritual nature of it. Daniel 2:34-35 says, "a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Whilst we are looking at a literal prophecy and a literal truth we are looking at a literal metaphor. Stones don’t naturally grow into mountains. There is no doubt that we are looking at a spiritual prediction.

The kingdom began as a small stone with the early church in a small nation and has now become (as predicted) a large mountain today throughout the world covering all nations.

It is explicitly stated that the kingdom of God would be set up in the days of the Roman Empire (Daniel 2:44).

The prophet Daniel predicted this eternal kingdom, which would emanate from “the God of heaven” in Daniel 2:44-45, saying, “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

Christ did not come to set up a kingdom that was limited to time, it would rather be an eternal kingdom that would last forever.

Albert Barnes explains: “The natural and obvious sense of the passage is, that during the continuance of the kingdoms above-mentioned, or before they should finally pass away, that is, before the last one should become extinct, another kingdom would be established on the earth which would be perpetual.”

Other such references are found throughout Scripture in Genesis 24:3, Ezra 5:11-12, 6:9-10, 7:12, 21, 23, Nehemiah, 1:4, 2:4, 20, Psalm 136:26, Daniel 2:18-19, 37, Jonah 1:9, Revelation 11:13, 16:11.

Those who disconnect the repeated synonymous terms “the kingdom of heaven” and “the kingdom of God” do gravely undermine the simple truth that there is but one eternal righteous kingdom that belongs to “the God of heaven.” It is God ordained and God controlled; and whilst it is currently headquartered in heavenly domain it finds its earthly demonstration within the persecuted Church of Jesus Christ. Significantly, in Revelation, we see the righteous giving glory to the God of heaven (11:13) and the wicked blaspheming the God of heaven(16:10-11).
Why is this current age right for the Day of the Lord, but the actual Day of the Lord is so "wrong" in your view?
 
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Timtofly

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Premillennialists like to portray their millennium as all sweetness and light. They like to portray it as some type of age of Aquarius. But the opposite is the truth. These billions of wicked people actually reside in the millennium. Premils argue they have prolonged lives (1,000 years+).
These rebels grow to such an overwhelming amount that they overrun your MK as the sand of the sea. But at the drop of a hat they switch their allegiance from Jesus to say. These billions of millennial phonies are obviously not serious or genuine in their submission to Christ (or they would not be instantly wooed by Satan away from the glorified Christ), they are actors on a stage deceiving Christ into believing they are real. This is a total mess. What a debacle and what an evangelistic bust!

This doesn't add up. The reality is: what you portray will never happen. The wicked are all destroyed at the second coming.
It does not add up because it is private opinion and not Scripture.
 
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Timtofly

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Revelation 20 is just saying what repeated Scripture had been prophesying for centuries about the new covenant period: that the Gentiles would be enlightenment through receiving the truth. There is frequently no qualification as to the extent of the enlightenment. Each statement re the removal of the darkness enveloping the nations is broad and sweeping. If Premil arguments (or modes of interpretation) are applied to Scripture after Scripture like this then one might arrive at the place of universal salvation of the nations. This is absurd, and contrary to what is regularly represented in Scripture.

In the OT the Gentiles were considered blind, death, ignorant, in darkness and in imprisoned. Today they have been enlightened by the truth through the great commission. This is a general statement. Basically: the light has shone, the darkness has been dispelled, the ignorance is gone, and the veil has been lifted! The Gentiles are now without excuse.

God’s heart was to reach the Gentile nations through the earthly ministry of Christ! In the OT the Gentiles were considered blind, death, ignorant, in darkness and in imprisoned. Today they have been enlightened by the truth through the great commission. This is a general statement. Basically: the light has shone, the darkness has been dispelled, the ignorance is gone, and the veil has been lifted! The Gentiles are now without excuse.

God’s heart was to reach the Gentile nations through the earthly ministry of Christ!

Right from the book of Genesis, God promised Abraham in Genesis 17:5-6: a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.”

Psalms 22:27-28: “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.”

Psalms 72:8-11: He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.”

Psalms 72:17: “His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.”

Isaiah talks often about the great commission going out to the nations and enlightening the Gentiles.

Isaiah 2:2: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

Isaiah 11:10 predicts: “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, (namely Jesus Christ) which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Isaiah 25:6-7: “And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.”

The testimony of God’s covenant people and the truth of the Gospel Christ was predicted to be a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house” (Isaiah 42:6-7). The scope of that influence would reach “the end of the earth … the isles, and the inhabitants thereof” (Isaiah 42:10).

Did this mean they would all believe? No! It simply described the invasion of the enemy’s territory and the Gospel favour that has been extended to all nations in this current new covenant age.

Isaiah 49:6 likewise teaches: “I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

Isaiah 52:10-15: The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God … So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.”

Isaiah 55:5: Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.”

Isaiah 57:19: “I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.”

Isaiah prophesied of Christ that “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee (Isaiah 60:1-5).

Even with these sweeping statements; when Scripture speaks of the enlightenment of the Gentiles it doesn’t suggest that every individual Gentile will be saved. No. It is demonstrating that this grouping that was once outside of the Gospel message, and therefore hope, would now be subjected to the light of truth. Anyway, Satan and demons don't deceive nations, they deceive people within the nations. Satan and demons don't inhabit nations, they inhabit people within the nations. Before Christ’s earthy ministry there was a blanket of deception over the Gentiles. Entire nations were deceived. That is no longer the case. Satan fell from high and lofty place.

Isaiah 62:2: “And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.”

Jeremiah 16:19 says, "O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth"

Malachi 1:11: “For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.”

The Gentiles sat in darkness (outside of God's plan of salvation with a few occasional exceptions) prior to the cross, after the cross salvation visited the nations and light shone in darkness. The light has been shining on the nations for near 2,000 years – the darkness has been dispelled. The deception is gone and the truth is available, however, whilst the general deception has been lifted and the Gospel opportunity is now available to the Gentiles, individuals must personal take a hold of Christ for salvation to be a reality.

Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:78-80 and prophesied: “Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

Simeon acknowledged in Luke 2:30-32 says: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Prior to Christ’s earthly ministry believers knew that the Gospel was going to go the Gentiles.

Many conveniently overlook the seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity that exist today (in comparison to before the cross) in regard to the nations access to truth.
The problem is that you are turning the pre-mill view into the post mill view. Any pre-mill who thinks the way you paint the millennium is not using Scripture to define the millennium.
 
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RandyPNW

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An elementary study of the early Church fathers’ teachings over the first 100 years after the cross shows that they generally saw the second coming of Jesus Christ as “the end” or “the end of the world.” They believed all the righteous would be rescued to inherit a new perfected earth. The wicked would be destroyed with this current corrupt earth. This is standard Amillennial teaching! There is a notable silence from the early writers, apart from Papias. Nowhere does he quote any of the early Church fathers (apart from Papias) mention, or describe conditions on a future millennial earth or articulate any of the main tenets of the Premillennial belief. All we have is complete silence.

There is complete silence on a millennial existence in the first 100 years after the cross apart from Papias. Remember, Revelation was a later manuscript that was not believed to have gained wide influence outside of Asia Minor for quite a while. So, the absence of these early writers exegeting it is not strange.

Contrary to what many modern Dispensationalist apologists argue, the early church writers were not mainly Premillennialist. In fact, the doctrine, which seems to have had its origin in Asia Minor, was mainly limited to that area for many yrs.

Well yea, the Apostle John wrote letters to 7 churches in Asia Minor, and it would be expected that they heard the message regarding the future Millennium! John may have gotten his Revelation about half a century after the Cross, so I don't know why you'd be surprised that for 100 years after the Cross you don't hear much about the Millennium.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken the Millennial Day theory may have existed at that time, and Jews, who were the first Christians, may have just assumed that the 7th thousand year period in human history would provide the occasion for Israel's final salvation? Why should anybody but the worldly spend time detailing what the Millennium would be like? Men like Cerinthus would surely make use of it to explain how human lusts can be satisfied in the age of God's coming Kingdom?

But genuine Christians, who believed in a future Kingdom, would surely be more focused on winning souls in preparation for that Kingdom! And so, why look for discussion of the Millennium in the 1st century of the Church.

But as controversy over that time period developed, there came to be need for the Church Fathers to defend Premillennial beliefs, or Chiliasm, including Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Tertullian and Hippolytus were also important defenders of this belief. This does not at all indicate that the Church expected an abrupt end at the 2nd Coming!
 
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sovereigngrace

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The problem is that you are turning the pre-mill view into the post mill view. Any pre-mill who thinks the way you paint the millennium is not using Scripture to define the millennium.

I notice you never actually address what others write. You never explain their Scriptures. You just submit short dismissive evasive comments.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Well yea, the Apostle John wrote letters to 7 churches in Asia Minor, and it would be expected that they heard the message regarding the future Millennium! John may have gotten his Revelation about half a century after the Cross, so I don't know why you'd be surprised that for 100 years after the Cross you don't hear much about the Millennium.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken the Millennial Day theory may have existed at that time, and Jews, who were the first Christians, may have just assumed that the 7th thousand year period in human history would provide the occasion for Israel's final salvation? Why should anybody but the worldly spend time detailing what the Millennium would be like? Men like Cerinthus would surely make use of it to explain how human lusts can be satisfied in the age of God's coming Kingdom?

But genuine Christians, who believed in a future Kingdom, would surely be more focused on winning souls in preparation for that Kingdom! And so, why look for discussion of the Millennium in the 1st century of the Church.

But as controversy over that time period developed, there came to be need for the Church Fathers to defend Premillennial beliefs, or Chiliasm, including Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Tertullian and Hippolytus were also important defenders of this belief. This does not at all indicate that the Church expected an abrupt end at the 2nd Coming!

Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, and his baleful influence on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. It is both notable and amazing, in light of the loud noise, and constant boastings coming from the Premillennial camp re its ancient heritage, that for 240 years after the cross there is no existing Premillennial teaching pertaining to the populating of the millennium with the wicked and the release of Satan 1,000 years after the second coming. Consequently, there was nothing taught by any traditional Chiliast before this that the second coming would be followed by Satan’s deceit of billions of millennial inhabitants, who come against the righteous as the sand of the sea in allegiance to Satan and overrun the millennium. For the first 240 years of the early Church these key elements of Premillennialism were either unknown or rejected by all the orthodox early Church writers. This is not insignificant!

Victorinus concisely submits:

And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist (Revelation commentary: 20.1).

This is the sum total of information we have on this supposed future uprising. Victorinus is markedly succinct on this matter. He doesn’t elaborate any more on his position. This is the totality of his surviving views. While Victorinus did previously make a passing comment about Satan being released, “because of the nations which will have served Antichrist,” he didn’t expand and delineate their activity, numbers, location and influence.
 
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DavidPT

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Consequently, there was nothing taught by any traditional Chiliast before this that the second coming would be followed by Satan’s deceit of billions of millennial inhabitants, who come against the righteous as the sand of the sea in allegiance to Satan and overrun the millennium. For the first 240 years of the early Church these key elements of Premillennialism were either unknown or rejected by all the orthodox early Church writers. This is not insignificant!


Why do you continually insist that Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-9 were not in anyone's Bibles for the first 240 years after the cross? Why are you even starting at the cross to begin with? Revelation wasn't already written at that time. How can anyone have already had an opinion about the millennium before John even saw the visions first?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Per your interpretations of some of their writings, this implies ch 20 looked like this below to the earliast chiliasts.

Revelation 20:1 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
2 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
3 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
4 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
5 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
6 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
7 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

They only saw 7 verses rather than 15, apparently. How can any reasonable person take your interpretations of some of their writings serious when you are, via your interpretations of some of their writings, having them taking away from the prophecies written in this book by having them having removed Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-9 altogether? What gives you the right to imply they took away from the prophecies written in this book? That's a serious charge. And they are not even here to defend themselves, that's the sad thing about it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why do you continually insist that Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-9 were not in anyone's Bibles for the first 240 years after the cross? Why are you even starting at the cross to begin with? Revelation wasn't already written at that time. How can anyone have already had an opinion about the millennium before John even saw the visions first?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Per your interpretations of some of their writings, this implies ch 20 looked like this below to the earliast chiliasts.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
2 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
3 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
4 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
5 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
6 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
7 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

They only saw 7 verses rather than 15, apparently. How can any reasonable person take your interpretations of some of their writings serious when you are, via your interpretations of some of their writings, having them taking away from the prophecies written in this book by having them having removed Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-10 altogether? What gives you the right to imply they took away from the prophecies written in this book? That's a serious charge. And they are not even here to defend themselves, that's the sad thing about it.

When have i ever said that Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-9 were not in anyone's Bibles for the first 240 years after the cross? Nowhere. I said, it was not until Victorinus, 240 years after the cross, that any orthodox ECF taught any of the core Premil fundamentals: including, two future resurrection and judgement days separated by 1000 years, the suspension of Christ's kingly reign, sin, death, corruption, the wicked and Satan on a millennial earth, Israel’s restoration to a place of pre-eminence above the Gentiles nations, the restoration of the whole old covenant arrangement (including the return of animal sacrifices, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, and the return of the Old Testament priesthood), the casting down of Satan and his subsequent binding at the second coming, Satan being in the abyss for 1000 years after Christ's return, whereupon he will be released to win the affections of the countless millennial inhabitants as the sand of the sea. But the heretics taught many of these from the 1st century onward as I showed above.
 
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Christian Gedge

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I'm not sure that posting excerpts from somebody else's writings, without even explaining your own position in your own words, is a valid thread starter.
Thomas Ice leaves me cold. :bbrr:
 
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Christian Gedge

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it was not until Victorinus, 240 years after the cross, that any orthodox ECF taught any of the core Premil fundamentals: including, two future resurrection and judgement days separated by 1000 years, the suspension of Christ's kingly reign, sin, death, corruption, the wicked and Satan on a millennial earth, Israel’s restoration to a place of pre-eminence above the Gentiles nations, the restoration of the whole old covenant arrangement
Did the Church renounce the writings of Victorinus?
 
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RandyPNW

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Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, and his baleful influence on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. It is both notable and amazing, in light of the loud noise, and constant boastings coming from the Premillennial camp re its ancient heritage, that for 240 years after the cross there is no existing Premillennial teaching pertaining to the populating of the millennium with the wicked and the release of Satan 1,000 years after the second coming. Consequently, there was nothing taught by any traditional Chiliast before this that the second coming would be followed by Satan’s deceit of billions of millennial inhabitants, who come against the righteous as the sand of the sea in allegiance to Satan and overrun the millennium. For the first 240 years of the early Church these key elements of Premillennialism were either unknown or rejected by all the orthodox early Church writers. This is not insignificant!

Victorinus concisely submits:

And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist (Revelation commentary: 20.1).

This is the sum total of information we have on this supposed future uprising. Victorinus is markedly succinct on this matter. He doesn’t elaborate any more on his position. This is the totality of his surviving views. While Victorinus did previously make a passing comment about Satan being released, “because of the nations which will have served Antichrist,” he didn’t expand and delineate their activity, numbers, location and influence.

As I said, details in the book of Revelation are sketchy, and does not leave much room for speculation. The idea of mortality in the Millennium is not a problem for me, nor is the rebellion of Satan towards the end of this period.

Latent human sin can rise up fairly quickly to capture a single generation. I've seen this here in the US in my lifetime. There has been a latent Marxist bent throughout my lifetime, but in the last 10 years the political Left has turned to Marxism in a sudden surge of interest in this kind of activism.

I've never seen such a coalition of political party, media, and wealthy elite combine to push for this kind of atheistic agenda. And it hasn't taken long.
 
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DavidPT

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When have i ever said that Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-9 were not in anyone's Bibles for the first 240 years after the cross?


Your interpretations of some of their writings imply that, not that you are actually saying that. What is being implied, being the point. You have Chiliasts who believed that the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, having satan cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming. That means you have these Chiliasts disregarding Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-9 altogether as if these verses were not even in their Bibles at the time, thus they were unable to see that satan is not cast into the LOF before the millennium, but is cast into the LOF after the millennium, yet you have them, via your interpretations of some of their writings, having satan cast into the LOF at the beginning of the millennium. Revelation 20 is crystal clear, so crystal clear that a 10 year old could not mistake that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium, yet you have some of these early Chiliasts having reading comprehension less than a 10 year old might have.

You're convinced that because you have studied their writings for years, this makes you an expert on what they wrote, then. I can tell you a little story about that concept, that it is not always true in every case. The kind of trade I do involves the building of houses. Carpenters frame the houses, I hang the drywall in them. Years ago there was a carpenter around here that had years and years of experience framing houses, which you would then think makes him an expert, except his framing was so rough and out of square that I refused to hang drywall in houses he framed since his sub par framing job made my work look bad. I didn't know how bad his framing was until I hung that first house I hung the drywall in that he framed. After that first one, not his first house, but the first house that I hung the drywall in that that he framed, I wasn't interested in hanging any more houses that he framed. I then got into a habit, that when a contractor called me up about a house to bid on, I would ask who framed it, then precede accordingly based on whether the carpenters were good framers or bad framers.

So just because one has years and years experience with something, that does not necessarily make them experts, especially if all of those years they weren't even doing things correctly to begin with, where in your case, you were never interpreting some of their writings correctly to begin with, since you have chiliasts that take the thousand years to be meaning after the 2nd coming, having satan cast into the LOF at the beginning of the thousand years, though the text plainly tells us that at the beginning of the thousand years, satan is not cast into the LOF at the time, he is instead bound a thousand years at the time.
 
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sovereigngrace

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As I said, details in the book of Revelation are sketchy, and does not leave much room for speculation. The idea of mortality in the Millennium is not a problem for me, nor is the rebellion of Satan towards the end of this period.

Latent human sin can rise up fairly quickly to capture a single generation. I've seen this here in the US in my lifetime. There has been a latent Marxist bent throughout my lifetime, but in the last 10 years the political Left has turned to Marxism in a sudden surge of interest in this kind of activism.

I've never seen such a coalition of political party, media, and wealthy elite combine to push for this kind of atheistic agenda. And it hasn't taken long.

That is why i believe we have entered Satan's little season at the end.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Your interpretations of some of their writings imply that, not that you are actually saying that. What is being implied, being the point. You have Chiliasts who believed that the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, having satan cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming. That means you have these Chiliasts disregarding Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:7-9 altogether as if these verses were not even in their Bibles at the time, thus they were unable to see that satan is not cast into the LOF before the millennium, but is cast into the LOF after the millennium, yet you have them, via your interpretations of some of their writings, having satan cast into the LOF at the beginning of the millennium. Revelation 20 is crystal clear, so crystal clear that a 10 year old could not mistake that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium, yet you have some of these early Chiliasts having reading comprehension less than a 10 year old might have.

You're convinced that because you have studied their writings for years, this makes you an expert on what they wrote, then. I can tell you a little story about that concept, that it is not always true in every case. The kind of trade I do involves the building of houses. Carpenters frame the houses, I hang the drywall in them. Years ago there was a carpenter around here that had years and years of experience framing houses, which you would then think makes him an expert, except his framing was so rough and out of square that I refused to hang drywall in houses he framed since his sub par framing job made my work look bad. I didn't know how bad his framing was until I hung that first house I hung the drywall in that he framed. After that first one, not his first house, but the first house that I hung the drywall in that that he framed, I wasn't interested in hanging any more houses that he framed. I then got into a habit, that when a contractor called me up about a house to bid on, I would ask who framed it, then precede accordingly based on whether the carpenters were good framers or bad framers.

So just because one has years and years experience with something, that does not necessarily make them experts, especially if all of those years they weren't even doing things correctly to begin with, where in your case, you were never interpreting some of their writings correctly to begin with, since you have chiliasts that take the thousand years to be meaning after the 2nd coming, having satan cast into the LOF at the beginning of the thousand years, though the text plainly tells us that at the beginning of the thousand years, satan is not cast into the LOF at the time, he is instead bound a thousand years at the time.

Take your frustration up with the Chiliast ECFs, not me. They wrote what they did. I am just the mail man. I understand your discomfort but I have presented the facts. No other Premil I have engaged with denies this apart from you. Even the (non-Dispy) Premil historians acknowledge this. Facts are indeed stubborn things.

By the way, the early Chiliasts identified the binding of Satan with the earthly ministry of Christ, like Amils (ancient and modern.). They saw the destruction of Satan as happening at the second coming, like Amils. These are facts! This reinforces their disagreement with the modern Premil scheme. It also highlights the similarly between ancient Chiliasm and ancient and modern Amils. Both expected the age to come to be perfect, not like the Premil age to come which is an unmitigated bust filled with sin and sinners, dying and crying, sickness and hospitals, war and terror.

Ancient Premil can only be found amongst the heretical Judaizers. I presented quotes from these questionable founding fathers of modern Premil.

The 1st orthodox adherent to Premil was Victorinus about AD270. He was opposed by the orthodox Church of his day and his writings subjugated and rewritten. They had minimal effect on the Church and all but disappeared around AD430 untill Jesuit priest Manuel Lacunza in 1818 and Dispensationalism arrived in AD1830.

There is still a massive question mark over these writings of Victorinus today.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Say what you will author nicely exposed the pagan Greek influence in rejection of literal interpretation of scripture.
The author nicely avoided using scripture itself to support his view, which is what matters. His words are meaningless without scriptural support.

It seems to me that Thomas Ice is not able to use scripture to refute Amillennialism, so he has tried to resort to other means to do so. As far as I know he doesn't post here so we can't even address what he said directly. Because of that, this thread is pointless as far as I'm concerned.
 
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chad kincham

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Revelation 20 is just saying what repeated Scripture had been prophesying for centuries about the new covenant period: that the Gentiles would be enlightenment through receiving the truth. There is frequently no qualification as to the extent of the enlightenment. Each statement re the removal of the darkness enveloping the nations is broad and sweeping. If Premil arguments (or modes of interpretation) are applied to Scripture after Scripture like this then one might arrive at the place of universal salvation of the nations. This is absurd, and contrary to what is regularly represented in Scripture.

In the OT the Gentiles were considered blind, death, ignorant, in darkness and in imprisoned. Today they have been enlightened by the truth through the great commission. This is a general statement. Basically: the light has shone, the darkness has been dispelled, the ignorance is gone, and the veil has been lifted! The Gentiles are now without excuse.

God’s heart was to reach the Gentile nations through the earthly ministry of Christ! In the OT the Gentiles were considered blind, death, ignorant, in darkness and in imprisoned. Today they have been enlightened by the truth through the great commission. This is a general statement. Basically: the light has shone, the darkness has been dispelled, the ignorance is gone, and the veil has been lifted! The Gentiles are now without excuse.

God’s heart was to reach the Gentile nations through the earthly ministry of Christ!

Right from the book of Genesis, God promised Abraham in Genesis 17:5-6: a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.”

Psalms 22:27-28: “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.”

Psalms 72:8-11: He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.”

Psalms 72:17: “His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.”

Isaiah talks often about the great commission going out to the nations and enlightening the Gentiles.

Isaiah 2:2: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

Isaiah 11:10 predicts: “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, (namely Jesus Christ) which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Isaiah 25:6-7: “And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.”

The testimony of God’s covenant people and the truth of the Gospel Christ was predicted to be a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house” (Isaiah 42:6-7). The scope of that influence would reach “the end of the earth … the isles, and the inhabitants thereof” (Isaiah 42:10).

Did this mean they would all believe? No! It simply described the invasion of the enemy’s territory and the Gospel favour that has been extended to all nations in this current new covenant age.

Isaiah 49:6 likewise teaches: “I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

Isaiah 52:10-15: The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God … So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.”

Isaiah 55:5: Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.”

Isaiah 57:19: “I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.”

Isaiah prophesied of Christ that “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee (Isaiah 60:1-5).

Even with these sweeping statements; when Scripture speaks of the enlightenment of the Gentiles it doesn’t suggest that every individual Gentile will be saved. No. It is demonstrating that this grouping that was once outside of the Gospel message, and therefore hope, would now be subjected to the light of truth. Anyway, Satan and demons don't deceive nations, they deceive people within the nations. Satan and demons don't inhabit nations, they inhabit people within the nations. Before Christ’s earthy ministry there was a blanket of deception over the Gentiles. Entire nations were deceived. That is no longer the case. Satan fell from high and lofty place.

Isaiah 62:2: “And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.”

Jeremiah 16:19 says, "O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth"

Malachi 1:11: “For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.”

The Gentiles sat in darkness (outside of God's plan of salvation with a few occasional exceptions) prior to the cross, after the cross salvation visited the nations and light shone in darkness. The light has been shining on the nations for near 2,000 years – the darkness has been dispelled. The deception is gone and the truth is available, however, whilst the general deception has been lifted and the Gospel opportunity is now available to the Gentiles, individuals must personal take a hold of Christ for salvation to be a reality.

Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:78-80 and prophesied: “Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

Simeon acknowledged in Luke 2:30-32 says: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Prior to Christ’s earthly ministry believers knew that the Gospel was going to go the Gentiles.

Many conveniently overlook the seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity that exist today (in comparison to before the cross) in regard to the nations access to truth.
By your own admission on another thread, you do not do your own research on the ECFs. You simply trust and depend upon Thomas Ice, who has been widely proven to be bias in his Pretrib judgment and lacking in his historic evidence. What you submit is simply his opinions, not hard facts. That is because it takes deep research to discover what the ECFs really believed. Here are my own findings on the history of Prem
By your own admission on another thread, you do not do your own research on the ECFs. You simply trust and depend upon Thomas Ice, who has been widely proven to be bias in his Pretrib judgment and lacking in his historic evidence. What you submit is simply his opinions, not hard facts. That is because it takes deep research to discover what the ECFs really believed. Here are my own findings on the history of Premil.

And you do?

I am perfectly capable of looking at scholarly articles and determining which ones make the best case, TYVM, and that one from liberty university is irrefutable, citing many scholarly sources.

And that website posted this:

This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Pre-Trib Research Center at Scholars Crossing. It has been accepted for inclusion in Article Archives by an authorized administrator of Scholars Crossing. For more information, please contact scholarlycommunications@liberty.edu.

Free and open access.

The evidence is overwhelming that the early church Premil which is not surprising since its common sense, and there are dozens of OT and NT scriptures unequivocally stating Jesus will return to earth and set up His kingdom and sit on David’s throne.
 
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Fervent

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From what I gather the crux of the argument seems to be a confusion between literal and literalistic. The fantastical imagery of Revelation and the fact that it is presented as a vision along with the type of literature it is all points to symbolic language being used throughout. To try to force a 1:1 pattern doesn't make sense of the material, as Revelation seems to fold over itself several times as if it is presenting a single truth from multiple vantage points. A literal reading demands recognizing the routine usage of symbolism, drawn on a history of symbols repeated through all of Scripture.
 
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RandyPNW

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That is why i believe we have entered Satan's little season at the end.

Both of our positions are close to agreement on this. It is an age-ending little season of Satanic interference in God's Kingdom. I just believe that in the present age, Satan's rebellion will culminate in Antichrist's 3.5 years of tyranny. But we are already in the throes of Christian apostasy, ie apostasy within the former Christian territories.
 
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