Jesus Changed Everything for Women

3 Resurrections said:

You are referring to the requirements that had to be met for one to be the replacement for Judas. That group of the "chief Apostles" was a bit different

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Judas was not a "chief apostle" (2 Corinthians 12:11).
The chief apostles were Peter, James and John.

than the "other apostles", which was a separate category that did not require as stringent a list of requirements.

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There was only one group of aostles, those appointed by Jesus Christ.
There was not a group of lesser apostles in addition to the 12 appointed by Jesus.

Remember, Christ in rising from the dead brought with Him a "multitude of captives" out of the grave and gave them as gifts to men in Ephesians 4. Among these individual "gifts" were those who were apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Yet those called "apostles" whom Christ raised from the dead had not been with Him from the beginning of His earthly ministry. They had been rotting in the grave during that time. The word "apostles" simply means "sent ones", which may or may not be the original "chief Apostles" group of 12.

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"Having ascended on high he led captivity captive (took those captive--sin, death, Satan-- who had taken others captive), he gave gifts to men." (Ephesians 4:8)

I understand this in light of Colossians 2:15, the destruction of Satan's kingdom; i.e., as shaming their captors,
and the "gifts to men" as in Acts 1:4, the gift of the Holy Spirit and his graces.

I do not see Ephesians 4:8 as related to Matthew 27:52-53 (the others raised with, Jesus)
and I do not see the others raised with Jesus as related to Ephesians 4:11 (as being apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc.),
but see the gifts to the church of the apostles, prophets and evangelists as the apostles appointed by Jesus Christ, and the prophets and evangelists appointed by the Holy Spirit.

Clare73 said:

There was not a group of lesser apostles in addition to the 12 appointed by Jesus.

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The seventy whom Jesus sent out in Luke 10 are also commonly understood to be apostles (and they included women).

Paidiske said:

The seventy whom Jesus sent out in Luke 10 are also commonly understood to be apostles (and they included women).

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Where in the NT do we find there were women, and

if women where do we find they preached rather than ministered to the 70 as the women, such as Martha and Mary, did for Jesus, and

where in the NT are they said to be apostles?

Clare73 said:

Where in the NT do we find there were women, and

if women where do we find they preached rather than ministered to the 70 as the women, such as Martha and Mary, did for Jesus, and

where in the NT are they said to be apostles?

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We find mention of Andronicus and Junia, apostles, in Romans; and church tradition tells us they were a married couple who were among the seventy.

We are told in the passage what the seventy did, and there were not two groups, one who preached and another who otherwise "ministered" to the preachers.

Paidiske said:

We find mention of Andronicus and Junia, apostles, in Romans; and church tradition tells us they were a married couple who were among the seventy.

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Likewise with Priscilla and Aquila, but we have no basis for saying Priscilla preached.

We are told in the passage what the seventy did, and there were not two groups, one who preached and another who otherwise "ministered" to the preachers.

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Scripture?

Luke 10:1-11

"After this the Lord appointed seventy others and sent them on ahead of him in pairs to every town and place where he himself intended to go. 2He said to them, ‘The harvest is plentiful, but the labourers are few; therefore ask the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers into his harvest. 3Go on your way. See, I am sending you out like lambs into the midst of wolves. 4Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and greet no one on the road. 5Whatever house you enter, first say, “Peace to this house!” 6And if anyone is there who shares in peace, your peace will rest on that person; but if not, it will return to you. 7Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the labourer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house. 8Whenever you enter a town and its people welcome you, eat what is set before you; 9cure the sick who are there, and say to them, “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” 10But whenever you enter a town and they do not welcome you, go out into its streets and say, 11“Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off in protest against you. Yet know this: the kingdom of God has come near.”

No sense here of gender differentiation of work by these apostles.

Paidiske said:

Luke 10:1-11

"After this the Lord appointed seventy others and sent them on ahead of him in pairs to every town and place where he himself intended to go. 2He said to them, ‘The harvest is plentiful, but the labourers are few; therefore ask the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers into his harvest. 3Go on your way. See, I am sending you out like lambs into the midst of wolves. 4Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and greet no one on the road. 5Whatever house you enter, first say, “Peace to this house!” 6And if anyone is there who shares in peace, your peace will rest on that person; but if not, it will return to you. 7Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the labourer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house. 8Whenever you enter a town and its people welcome you, eat what is set before you; 9cure the sick who are there, and say to them, “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” 10But whenever you enter a town and they do not welcome you, go out into its streets and say, 11“Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off in protest against you. Yet know this: the kingdom of God has come near.”

No sense here of gender differentiation of work by these apostles.

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So we have no Biblical basis for the two being of the 70.

We also have no Biblical basis for assuming all of the 70 were men. But given that we do have very early attestations that some of the 70 were women, that should be weighed in the balance.

Clare73 said:

Contrare. . .

Paul was chosen by God to be an apostle (1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians,
1 and 2 Timothy 1:1) just as the apostles were.

And Paul received his teaching from Jesus (Galatians 2:11-12) just as the apostles did,

and Paul was caught up to the third heaven and heard things man is not permitted to tell (2 Corinthians 12:1-8), which the apsotle were not.

So I invite you to adjust your understanding accordingly.

Physician, heal thyself.

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Yes, of course all that is true. And you've moved the goal posts. You explicitly said that in order to meet the requirements of an apostle, the person had to be -

Clare73 said:

one who had been with them the whole time Jesus went in and out (ministered publicly) among them, beginning from John's baptism of Jesus to his asencsion and who had been a witness of the resurrection. (Acts 2:21-22)

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Paul was NONE of that. Now you've changed the requirements to fit Paul. Thank you for proving my point.

For those who don't mind doing a little digging, below is a link to some extensive comments related to this theme of female apostles in the NT era, giving evidence of their existence.

Scrutinizing Female Apostles My comments start at Reply #13, dated Monday Nov. 12, 2018

My tradition-minded parents would be appalled that I have used the scriptures that they so carefully taught their children, only for me to finally recognize an entirely different concept being presented in scripture than their own viewpoint on this matter. As long as it is consistent with the whole of scripture, I have to follow where that evidence leads, instead of pleasing my aged parents (one of whom has recently passed into glory, and knows better by now).

Clare73 said:

Judas was not a "chief apostle" (2 Corinthians 12:11).
The chief apostles were Peter, James and John.

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Judas, as you know, was replaced by Matthias, who with the other 11 formed the "chief apostles" group Paul called "The Twelve". That group called "The Twelve" was listed separately from the rest called "All the apostles" in I Corinthians 15:7.

Paidiske said:

We also have no Biblical basis for assuming all of the 70 were men. But given that we do have very early attestations that some of the 70 were women, that should be weighed in the balance.

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No Biblical basis?

Gregorikos said:

Yes, of course all that is true. And you've moved the goal posts. You explicitly said that in order to meet the requirements of an apostle, the person had to be -



Paul was NONE of that. Now you've changed the requirements to fit Paul. Thank you for proving my point.

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Apples and oranges. . .

Nor did the apostles, who had their own set of requirements, choose Paul.

Oranges were never the goal post.

3 Resurrections said:

For those who don't mind doing a little digging, below is a link to some extensive comments related to this theme of female apostles in the NT era, giving evidence of their existence.

Scrutinizing Female Apostles My comments start at Reply #13, dated Monday Nov. 12, 2018

My tradition-minded parents would be appalled that I have used the scriptures that they so carefully taught their children, only for me to finally recognize an entirely different concept being presented in scripture than their own viewpoint on this matter. As long as it is consistent with the whole of scripture, I have to follow where that evidence leads, instead of pleasing my aged parents (one of whom has recently passed into glory, and knows better by now).

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Women were forbidden to have authority over men in the assembly.

Itinerant preaching is not in the assembly.

3 Resurrections said:

Judas, as you know, was replaced by Matthias, who with the other 11 formed the "chief apostles" group Paul called "The Twelve". That group called "The Twelve" was listed separately from the rest called "All the apostles" in I Corinthians 15:7.

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Separate appearances: the resurrection and then those referred to in Acts 1:3-9.

Clare73 said:

Women were forbidden to have authority over men in the assembly.

Itinerant preaching is not in the assembly.

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Women did more than "itinerant preaching" outside the assembly in the NT. The very purpose of the gift of prophecy given to anyone was for the sake of the assembly to collectively benefit from this (I Cor. 14:3-4). Even Moses in the OT said that he wished ALL of the people would prophesy, and not just the 70 men. Paul echoed this same sentiment in 1 Cor. 14:5, "I would that ye ALL spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied..." No gender specification limit on this all-inclusive statement.

The particular kind of "authority" Paul was forbidding in I Timothy 2:12 was an "authentein" type of overbearing dominance of women over men in the assembly. Not only was women prophesying IN THE ASSEMBLY ALLOWED, but Paul also gave instructions as to just HOW that prophesying in the assembly was to be done by women in I Timothy 2:8-9, comparable to the way their brothers prophesied.

Christ also strictly forbad his disciples to practice this kind of "authentein" authority against their fellow believers. He told them, "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister." Christ didn't think much of the whole overblown use of "authority" in His own church, since He Himself was actually the only "Head" of that church. Basin and towel kneeling at someone's feet was the way He illustrated His point of how to do ministry.

3 John also wrote against Diotrephes "who loveth to have the preeminence among them..." as an example of how NOT to do pastoring in a church. This abuse of ministry can and has been done by both women and men, unfortunately.

Clare73 said:

Separate appearances: the resurrection and then those referred to in Acts 1:3-9.

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Sure, those were separate appearances of Christ to DIFFERENT groups of people, which shows that "The Twelve" was considered a different category than "ALL the apostles". We know, for instance, that Barnabas as well as Paul was called an apostle in Acts 14:14, and neither of these was numbered along with "The Twelve" who were given those 12 thrones over the 12 tribes after Jesus's resurrection and ascension.

3 Resurrections said:

Sure, those were separate appearances of Christ to DIFFERENT groups of people, which shows that "The Twelve" was considered a different category than "ALL the apostles". We know, for instance, that Barnabas as well as Paul was called an apostle

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Paul was made an apostle by God, just as the 12 were.

in Acts 14:14, and neither of these was numbered along with "The Twelve" who were given those 12 thrones over the 12 tribes after Jesus's resurrection and ascension.

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Which excludes Paul and Barnabas from nothing promised to them.

And Paul was taken up into the third heaven, and the 12 were not.

3 Resurrections said:

Women did more than "itinerant preaching" outside the assembly in the NT. The very purpose of the gift of prophecy given to anyone was for the sake of the assembly to collectively benefit from this (I Cor. 14:3-4). Even Moses in the OT said that he wished ALL of the people would prophesy, and not just the 70 men. Paul echoed this same sentiment in 1 Cor. 14:5, "I would that ye ALL spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied..." No gender specification limit on this all-inclusive statement.

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The particular kind of "authority" Paul was forbidding in I Timothy 2:12 was an "authentein" type of overbearing dominance of women over men in the assembly.

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Nice gloss. . .however, Paul grounded his prohibition in the creation order, not in personal behavior and, thereby, included any and all women from having authority over men in all the assemblies.

Not only was women prophesying IN THE ASSEMBLY ALLOWED, but Paul also gave instructions as to just HOW that prophesying in the assembly was to be done by women in I Timothy 2:8-9, comparable to the way their brothers prophesied.

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Prophesying is not exercising authority over men.

Clare73 said:

Paul was made an apostle by God, just as the 12 were.

Which excludes Paul and Barnabas from nothing promised to them.

And Paul was taken up into the third heaven, and the 12 were not.

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Actually, God did make promises to both Paul and Barnabas, but I digress...

I don't understand your reason for trying to exclude Barnabas from the "apostle" category. He was clearly called an "apostle", along with Paul in Acts 14:14. Different task given to each man, but both sent on a mission for God. Barnabas and Paul were not the only example of apostles besides "The Twelve". There were many, many more in those first-century years, with the Holy Spirit being "poured out on all people", according to the prophet Joel. If the apostleship was only promised to a mere 12 individuals, that hardly equates to a "pouring out on all people", now does it?

It seems that you are attempting to limit the "apostle" term solely to "The Twelve". Is it your intended motive to avoid the prospect of anyone today claiming the "apostle" title? Well, I also limit the "lay apostles" category to that first century, when those sign gifts of apostleship were given to establish and confirm the New Covenant. There is no need for these sign gifts of "apostleship" to keep confirming the inauguration of the New Covenant today, and therefore, the miraculous sign gifts of apostleship were phased out when the "shaking" process in the AD 70 era had done its work in getting rid of all the Old Covenant elements, leaving the unshaken New Covenant to stand alone.

Clare73 said:

Nice gloss. . .however, Paul grounded his prohibition in the creation order, not in personal behavior and, thereby, included any and all women from having authority over men in all the assemblies.
Prophesying is not exercising authority over men.

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Paul did not want the abusive "authentein" power to be exercised by ANYBODY against their fellow believers. "...submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21). "...In lowliness of mind, let let each esteem other better than themselves..." (Phil. 2:3), etc.

I would agree with you that "prophesying" or speaking a message in the assembly is not exercising authority over men. This would apply to both men and women doing this. CHRIST IS THE "HEAD OF ALL THINGS TO THE CHURCH" (Ephesians 1:22), not any man or woman in ministry, if you want to concentrate on who gets the "authority" in the church.