How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

keras · Aug 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
That's just silly to cram every person into 1 small country.
there's space for a lot more people in the world, some will live in Israel, some not.

After the Sixth Seal world changer, anyone who doesn't live in all of the holy Land; from the Nile to the Euphrates, will be under the One World Govt, which will quickly be under the control of the Anti-Christ.
This is proved by how the AC comes to the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 and makes a 7 year peace treaty. Daniel 9:27
He breaks it at the mid point and conquers the holy people. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

Douggg · Aug 22, 2021

keras said:
It will be all of the Christian peoples who will occupy and live in all of the holy Land, before Jesus Returns.

There is physically not enough room to fit all the Christian people in the world, even into an expanded Israel.

And in the event of a Solar event completely depopulating the Jews presently in Israel, as in your scenario, it is far more likely that backfilling into the land of Israel will be by the 14 million Jews currently in the nations, who have a cultural, religious, and family tie to the Jews currently in Israel.

Christians have no group affinity to move to Israel. Jews do.

There are about 7 million Jews living in Israel. So of the 14 million Jews living in the nations, it would take only half to move to Israel, to repopulate the land to its current demographics.

eclipsenow · Aug 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Nope, Preterism falls absolutely flat on its face, this is not the New Earth.

Please don't call me a Preterist - that's a heresy.

I'm a Partial Preterist - and it's not my fault if you don't know what that is or what Eschatological Tension is. There are some great churches in America, but the mainstream evangelical church was become wishy-washy trite and runs on emotionalism, not proper peer-reviewed theological study. There are some great names - but they are few and far between. The fact that you didn't pick up on Eschatological Tension or that what I was saying fit neatly into Partial Preterism is an indictment against what's happening.

Also, you read the Mount of Olives splitting in two and water coming out literally? Sorry pal - but the NT interprets the OT. JESUS himself said he was the living water - and anyone that came to drink from him would live forever. The Holy Spirit arrived with tongues of fire, and the gospel, God's kingdom, burst forth upon the world, expanding outwards and bringing whole peoples out of darkness into the light. That is the river of life. That is the kingdom expanding. Heaven / aka the New World / The "rest" is our new land.

Unless you two wish to chop the New Testament out of your bible?

eclipsenow · Aug 22, 2021

keras said:
After the Sixth Seal world changer, anyone who doesn't live in all of the holy Land; from the Nile to the Euphrates, will be under the One World Govt, which will quickly be under the control of the Anti-Christ.
This is proved by how the AC comes to the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 and makes a 7 year peace treaty. Daniel 9:27
He breaks it at the mid point and conquers the holy people. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

In 2027 - how are you going to apologise to this list when this stuff hasn't happened?
Will it shock you into maybe questioning whether you actually know what you're doing, and have the skills in Hebrew literature and culture and history to even begin to understand the OT prophets?
Will you promise here and now to at the least delete your website and give up your end-times quests?

Jamdoc · Aug 22, 2021

keras said:
After the Sixth Seal world changer, anyone who doesn't live in all of the holy Land; from the Nile to the Euphrates, will be under the One World Govt, which will quickly be under the control of the Anti-Christ.
This is proved by how the AC comes to the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 and makes a 7 year peace treaty. Daniel 9:27
He breaks it at the mid point and conquers the holy people. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

We're talking about the New Earth of Revelation 21 and 22.
the one world government on that planet is ruled by God directly dwelling on Earth with His people.

Jamdoc · Aug 22, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Please don't call me a Preterist - that's a heresy.

I'm a Partial Preterist - and it's not my fault if you don't know what that is or what Eschatological Tension is. There are some great churches in America, but the mainstream evangelical church was become wishy-washy trite and runs on emotionalism, not proper peer-reviewed theological study. There are some great names - but they are few and far between. The fact that you didn't pick up on Eschatological Tension or that what I was saying fit neatly into Partial Preterism is an indictment against what's happening.

Also, you read the Mount of Olives splitting in two and water coming out literally? Sorry pal - but the NT interprets the OT. JESUS himself said he was the living water - and anyone that came to drink from him would live forever. The Holy Spirit arrived with tongues of fire, and the gospel, God's kingdom, burst forth upon the world, expanding outwards and bringing whole peoples out of darkness into the light. That is the river of life. That is the kingdom expanding. Heaven / aka the New World / The "rest" is our new land.

Unless you two wish to chop the New Testament out of your bible?

Preterism, partial preterism, same difference the way you talk.
this is not the new earth
sin and death still exist
Jesus is still in Heaven, He has not come back yet.
He will not come back until Israel says Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
and no I don't mean "spiritual Israel" because Jesus has not come back yet.

Douggg · Aug 22, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Also, you read the Mount of Olives splitting in two and water coming out literally? Sorry pal - but the NT interprets the OT. JESUS himself said he was the living water - and anyone that came to drink from him would live forever.

imho, that sounds like a idealistic interpretation of the bible.

The splitting of the Mt. of Oiives in half is literal because it gives the direction the two halves will move; half to the north, half to the south.

And the Jews escape through the valley created in similitude like their forefathers did at the time of Uzziah king of Judah.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

There is nothing in the New Testament that contradicts the literal meaning of the splitting of the Mt. of Olives.

Just The Facts · Aug 22, 2021

Hello

Every Christian Sect does it to one degree or another. When the Literal interpretation of a verse does not fit with reality they spiritualize that verse. When you spiritualize a verse you can make it says what ever you want. Pre Trib Rapture believers do this very often as do the modern Israel is EZ 37 fulfilled believers. Of course everyone accuses the other of doing it.... it is quite comical really

Dave L · Aug 22, 2021

Just The Facts said:
Hello

Every Christian Sect does it to one degree or another. When the Literal interpretation of a verse does not fit with reality they spiritualize that verse. When you spiritualize a verse you can make it says what ever you want. Pre Trib Rapture believers do this very often as do the modern Israel is EZ 37 fulfilled believers. Of course everyone accuses the other of doing it.... it is quite comical really

The Pharisees were hard-core literalists, blinded by God so they could not understand scripture. Many Premillennialists and DEispensatyionalists are no different. Jesus taught the kingdom, only seen by the born-again is spiritually understood through the symbolism presented in the literal passages.

keras · Aug 22, 2021

Douggg said:
There is physically not enough room to fit all the Christian people in the world, even into an expanded Israel.

And in the event of a Solar event completely depopulating the Jews presently in Israel, as in your scenario, it is far more likely that backfilling into the land of Israel will be by the 14 million Jews currently in the nations, who have a cultural, religious, and family tie to the Jews currently in Israel.

Christians have no group affinity to move to Israel. Jews do.

There are about 7 million Jews living in Israel. So of the 14 million Jews living in the nations, it would take only half to move to Israel, to repopulate the land to its current demographics.

It will be the Lord's faithful Christian holy people who will be living in all of the holy Land before Jesus Returns; before Gog attacks and before the leader of the one World Govt conquers them. Proved by Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 13:5-7.
How all that will happen, is well described by all the Prophets.

eclipsenow said:
In 2027 - how are you going to apologise to this list when this stuff hasn't happened?
Will it shock you into maybe questioning whether you actually know what you're doing, and have the skills in Hebrew literature and culture and history to even begin to understand the OT prophets?
Will you promise here and now to at the least delete your website and give up your end-times quests?

What I do is simply point out what the Bible Prophets have said, that God plans to do and as they mostly have not occurred as yet; they seem very likely to be in our near future.
So, no; I won't be apologizing to anyone or removing my website, as that is on the Prophets.
At the least, what I have done is to present a probable alternative to the proliferation of theories and fables promoted by the so called; prophecy experts today.
When disaster does strike; and I remain convinced it will, then those who have read my warnings will know it is from the Lord and will [should] know what to do through it and afterward.

keras · Aug 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
We're talking about the New Earth of Revelation 21 and 22.
the one world government on that planet is ruled by God directly dwelling on Earth with His people.

I wasn't.
My post was about what will happen before Jesus Returns. The NH,NE comas 1000 years later.

Douggg · Aug 22, 2021

keras said:
It will be the Lord's faithful Christian holy people who will be living in all of the holy Land before Jesus Returns;

The Jews, Israel, will become Christians during the great tribulation. So, yes, they will be the Lord's faithful Christians holy people, who's fore fathers escaped in similitude in the days of Uzziah King of Judah. Zechariah 14:5. Before Jesus Returns.

keras said:
before Gog attacks and before the leader of the one World Govt conquers them

Ezekiel 38:8 is not about Christians, the Church, because them back in the land had been scattered to the nations. Not applicable to the Church. The Jews, of the house of Jacob, are back in the land because the blessings and curse in Deuteronomy 30.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Christians are from all nations, kindreds, tongues, peoples. Not specifically Israel. It was the Jews fore fathers that had possessed the land.

keras · Aug 22, 2021

Douggg said:
The Jews, Israel, will become Christians during the great tribulation.

NO scripture says this.
It is part of the 'rapture' theory, and neither will happen.

Douggg said:
Ezekiel 38:8 is not about Christians,

The Gog/Magog attack is not against the Jewish State of Israel. They have walls and will use their Samson Option, if attacked.

Jamdoc · Aug 22, 2021

Dave L said:
The Pharisees were hard-core literalists, blinded by God so they could not understand scripture. Many Premillennialists and DEispensatyionalists are no different. Jesus taught the kingdom, only seen by the born-again is spiritually understood through the symbolism presented in the literal passages.

The flaw of the Pharisees is that they did not understand that there would be 2 comings of Messiah, instead some Rabbis believe in 2 Messiahs, Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering Messiah) and Messiah ben David (the conquering Messiah)
Instead of correctly seeing that Messiah would come, suffer, and die, then come again and rule
they focused on the Messiah ruling. and it is a small minority of Rabbis that even consider the suffering of Messiah aspect.

Jamdoc · Aug 22, 2021

keras said:
NO scripture says this.
It is part of the 'rapture' theory, and neither will happen.

Zechariah 13 says 2/3 of Israel will die, and 1/3 will be refined through the fire and be saved.

The Gog/Magog attack is not against the Jewish State of Israel. They have walls and will use their Samson Option, if attacked.

well the passage refers to unwalled cities.
so Israel will be at a state of peace at the time.

Jamdoc · Aug 22, 2021

keras said:
I wasn't.
My post was about what will happen before Jesus Returns. The NH,NE comas 1000 years later.

Well, I'm talking about NH/NE and that Gentile Christians will populate most the world, and the genetic descendants of Abraham will inhabit Israel on the New Earth.

eclipsenow · Aug 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Preterism, partial preterism, same difference the way you talk.

Err, no - and it's not my fault you don't know the difference.

this is not the new earth
sin and death still exist
Jesus is still in Heaven, He has not come back yet.

This is Eschatological Tension - the 'now and not yet' nature of the kingdom we are in now. As the Gospel Coalition says of the Kingdom of God, it is both here now but yet to come in fulness.

The Kingdom of God, Present
In the New Testament, the promised Messiah comes as “Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham” (Matt. 1:1). Through his incarnation, sinless life, crucifixion, and resurrection, Jesus fulfills the messianic promises, accomplishes the messianic mission, and brings redemption to a lost world.
Jesus is the King whose words and deeds bring the spiritual kingdom of God. He proclaims the coming of the kingdom (Matt. 4:17; Mark 1:15; Luke 4:43), preaches the parables of the kingdom (Matt. 13:1–50), and declares the ethics and nature of the kingdom (Matt. 5–7). His deeds, especially his casting out demons by the Spirit, usher in the kingdom: “If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Matt. 12:28; cf. Luke 11:20). Christ’s mission always leads “up to Jerusalem” and his death and resurrection, where he brings salvation through his sacrifice.

In his ascension, Jesus moves from the limited earthly sphere to the transcendent heavenly one. He sits at God’s right hand “in the heavens—far above every ruler and authority, power and dominion” (Eph. 1:20–21) now and forever. When Jesus pours out the Spirit on the church at Pentecost, God’s kingdom expands mightily as thousands come to Christ (Acts 2:41, 47; 4:4). Peter explains: “God exalted this man to his right hand as ruler and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins” (Acts 5:31). God rescues sinners “from the domain of darkness” and transfers them “into the kingdom of the Son he loves” (Col. 1:13–14).
The “kingdom,” as God’s reign over his people, will finally and ultimately “come at the end of the age in a mighty irruption into history inaugurating the perfect order of the age to come.” And yet this kingdom “has already come into history in the person and mission of Jesus,” and thus the “presence of the future” is already evident (see George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, 144–49). So, God’s reign is present and future, already and not yet, his active invasion of history now and his final establishment of the age to come. It is a sovereign rule, a dynamic power, and a divine activity. As the bearer of this kingdom, Jesus requires repentance to enter his kingdom community, since the present way of the world must be rejected and the new age of God’s rule and its corresponding way of life embraced. As such, repentance is not only the way into the kingdom but also the way of the kingdom.

The New Testament also proclaims that Jesus will return to reign as king, bringing justice, peace, delight, and victory. We live, then, in the tension between the “already” and the “not yet.” The kingdom was established with Israel, inaugurated with Christ in his coming, and achieved in the events of Christ’s death and resurrection. Even though the kingdom effects have begun, their full results await Christ’s return.

The Kingdom of God, Future
Although Jesus in his earthly ministry brings the kingdom, which expands exponentially at Pentecost, the fullness of the kingdom awaits until “the Son of Man comes in his glory” and sits “on his glorious throne” (Matt. 25:31). Then the angels will proclaim, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever” (Rev. 11:15). Jesus will judge the world, inviting believers to “inherit the kingdom” while consigning the lost to eternal punishment (Matt. 25:31–46). At “the end,” Jesus will hand “over the kingdom to God the Father” (1 Cor. 15:24).
Thus the new heavens and new earth will be the final stage of the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God will be at peace only in the end. Though Jesus’s victory has been won, the battle rages until his second coming (1 Pet. 5:8). God’s people conquer through Christ, who loves them and has given himself for them (Gal. 2:20). “The Lion from the tribe of Judah” who “has conquered” is the slain Lamb (Rev. 5:5–6). When the final installment of the kingdom arrives, the struggles of the present life will be past. By God’s grace, believers will reign with Christ. Human life will flourish, and human culture will thrive in the city of God (Heb. 2:5–10; Rev. 21:24–26). Jesus will return, deliver his people, and bring the final installment of his kingdom (Rev. 11:15).

Heaven involves God’s people serving their great King as subjects of his kingdom now and forever: “They are before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night” (Rev. 7:15). The Evil One is a defeated foe who will one day be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10). Through Christ, believers overcome death, so that at death they go to be with him (Phil. 1:23), and in the resurrection, death will be banished (1 Cor. 15:26; Rev. 21:4).

Conclusion
The kingdom of God is central to the biblical story of redemption. The story follows the narrative of the fall, the calling of the nation of Israel, and the coming of the promised Messiah, while prophesying his return one day in the culmination of all things, at which time he will set up the new Eden of God’s kingdom in the new heavens and new earth. In the meantime, we live in the already and not yet of the kingdom, serving our King and looking for his return.

The Kingdom of God - The Gospel Coalition

Just The Facts · Aug 22, 2021

Hi Dave L

I would agree with what you said to a point. I have always found if it is supposed to be taken in a spiritual sense there is scriptural direction to do so. The reader does not get free license to do it whenever they please. Preterist do it the most followed by Partial Preterist then Amills or maybe Adventists beat the amilll it is a close call there

the PreMills also do it as they see fit but everyone does it and does it without scriptural direction to do so.

Yes many verses are meant in a spiritual sense but only those verses we are told to do it with. If you are doing something or interpreting something without scriptural direction to do so then you are slipping in to the doctrines of men.

keras · Aug 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Zechariah 13 says 2/3 of Israel will die, and 1/3 will be refined through the fire and be saved.

You have added to scripture. Bad you!
Zechariah 13:9 does not say they will all be saved.
Many other prophesies say they will be wiped out and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27

Jeremiah 6:8-9 Be instructed, Jerusalem [Judah], or your God will depart from you and will devastate the Land. Psalms 89:30-32, Matthew 21:43
The Lord says: Glean like a vine the remnant of Israel, one last time, like the vine dresser – pass your hand over the branches. Isaiah 5:5-7

Jeremiah 6:10-15 To whom shall I speak and give warning? Who will hear me? Their ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening. They treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach, it has no appeal for them. Ezekiel 14:2, Ezekiel 22:26-28

But I am full of the anger of the Lord, I cannot hold it back. Isaiah 63:1-6 I must pour it out onto all the people of the Land. Their houses will be given to others. 2 Esdras 1:35-37

For all the leaders and people only consider themselves, their prophets and Rabbis are all frauds, every one of them. They fail to address the real problems of their people. They say: “All is well”. All well? Nothing is right and just. They ought to be ashamed because of their sinful practices, yet they have no sense of shame, therefore they will fall with a great crash and be brought low on the Day of My reckoning. Ezekiel 33:25-26

Jeremiah 6:16-20-30 The Lord says: you should enquire about the Way that leads to righteousness. But they said: “We refuse”. Then I appointed watchmen – listen for the call they told them. But they said: “We refuse”. Therefore hear you nations and take note of the plight of these people. I am about to bring ruin upon them, for all their sinful ways and ignoring My instructions. Your sacrifices are not acceptable and your offerings do not please Me. Zephaniah1:4-6 Matthew 24:41-42

Therefore the Lord says: I will set obstacles before this people, which will bring them to the ground, father, sons, friends and neighbors will all perish together. Jeremiah 12:14-17 A great host appears, like men arrayed for battle, against you: Zion.
Joel 2:1-11, Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21

News of their coming has reached us and our hands hang limp, agony grips us, pangs as of a woman in labour. Do not go outside, for the foe will smite you there, as terror is spread around the world. Mourn and wail as the despoiler comes upon us in an instant.
These verses are the clearest description of how the Lord will act on His great Day of vengeance. Isaiah 63:1-6 A coronal mass ejection flash will ‘come in an instant’, but ‘news of its coming will reach us’, by the STEREO satellite system. ‘Do not go outside’, is obvious – get into underground shelters and stay there until it passes, at least 24hrs. Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 30:26

It is appointed to assay My people, testing their conduct, but they are all rebels, mischief makers and corrupt to a man. The bellows blow, the fire is ready. All types of metal in vain the refiner refines, but the impurities cannot be removed.
Call them reject silver, for the Lord has rejected them. Ref: REB.

All of this prophecy in Jeremiah is telling us about the coming fire judgement – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. This will affect all the world, but especially the Middle East and this prophesy applies specifically to Judah, the current inhabitants of the Land. Amos 2:4-5, Ezekiel 20:46-48, Ezekiel 21:1-17, Isaiah 6:11-14

keras · Aug 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
well the passage refers to unwalled cities.
so Israel will be at a state of peace at the time.

They have walls now, literal and by their many defenses.
The people Gog will attack will have none of those things, they will trust in the Lord for their protection and He will deliver it by wiping out Gog and his army.

Jamdoc said:
Well, I'm talking about NH/NE and that Gentile Christians will populate most the world, and the genetic descendants of Abraham will inhabit Israel on the New Earth.

Funny, as this thread is about 'rapture' beliefs.
Your idea of two peoples of God, is completely in error.

How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

Which belief are you the most confident on?

Pre-trib rapture

Pre-wrath rapture

Mid-trib rapture

Post-trib rapture

Unsure

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Watching and Praying Always

Watching and Praying Always

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

Watching and Praying Always

Watching and Praying Always

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Senior Veteran

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Similar threads