The tension between works and faith

Mark Quayle · Aug 6, 2021

Soyeong said:
The law concerns faith among other weightier matters because our obedience to it is about relying or depending on God to rightly guide us. A sum is inclusive of all of its parts. All of the laws that God has given are examples of what it means to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the others hang on them, so they are all connected. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor is an example of what it means to obey the command to love our neighbor, so love fulfills the law because that is showing a correct understanding of what the law is essentially about how to do.

Agreed they are all connected. No one fact about God, nor even one truth, is alone.

Well put. But my interjection into your conversation with Zoidar was concerning the statement he made that faith is not part of the law. If you go through all the legal requirements, I don't think you will find 'faith' is one of them, is (I think) all he was saying.

But yes, the law is part of faith —in fact, the law complied with perfectly (by all appearances), isn't even obedience, if it does not include faith (specifically, submission).

Mark Quayle · Aug 6, 2021

zoidar said:
I think I get what you are saying, that only God can truly know if we were saved? I don't agree but I agree (if you agree) that only God knows the final outcome of a Christian's life in the end.

One may well be 100% confident and still be wrong. "100% know"? Guess that depends on the use of the word 'know', i.e. whether it means 'it is truth' or what.

But no, that isn't what I was talking about. What I was talking about is further described below.

zoidar said:
"silly, self-important, impetuous, weak". I guess we all have different sides to work on, but I like to add: By the Holy Spirit a lot of this can be overcome.

Not that monergism doesn't also apply to the Christian walk, but my point has mostly to do with the conversion of the heart and with salvation. Salvific Faith is the work of God, not the result of regeneration but the cause of regeneration. It is the Spirit of God within, the Power of God, that regenerates, and not the work of man, no matter how intrinsically we are involved in it. Our involvement in it doesn't increase it, doesn't add to it, doesn't improve what God accomplishes on his own merits.

There is a reason Scripture says "receive the Spirit" as opposed to, "accept the Spirit", as we are receptacles, not freewillers, in the matter of regeneration and salvation.

But my point was to say that it is the Spirit that has the integrity etc to make the change real —our decision-making ability does not. We don't have the strength of willpower, nor so many other things —certainly not the constancy nor the understanding of what is being undertaken, to fulfill this contract. We are carried along by the Spirit. We are not the drivers.

michael21 · Aug 6, 2021

zoidar said:
To be a bit personal. I met a girl who wasn't a very ... good person. Not to put the whole blame on her, but she didn't care about sin. I had to fight on my own, and I failed the test. So it lead to a life of sin. I was drawn away from God. The girl gave the impression she was a Christian, but it more and more turned out not to be true. The enemy, the accuser, does all he can to destroy our relationship with God.

The same thing happened to me many years ago. It led to 12 years of sin, including heavy gambling and drinking, along with lust being rampant. After those 12 years I returned to a christian community I had previously lived in. The man in charge told me God had given him a great love for me. It was the second time I realised God loves us far more, and is far more forgiving than we may realise and often hear from others.
The other time was when I was a teenager. After the church service I used to sit on a wall outside and smoke a cigarette. The looks I got from some of the parishoners made me feel I would go to hell for smoking, let alone all of my other imperfections. Anyway, a few years later I was prayed with by a well known evangelist who told me much about my life, though they had never met me before and confirmed I was baptised in the Holy Spirit, and yet at that time I still smoked. I learnt something profound that day. God does not demand of you what many of his children often do in order to be blessed by him, or even to be in a saved state.
BTW
As long as you have heartfelt conviction of sin before God and feel bad about it you remain in a saved state

zoidar · Aug 6, 2021

Soyeong said:
It's a good point that it can be interpreted as faithfulness in regard their dealings with men, though I don't see why it can't be referring to both because when we show faithfulness in regard to our dealings with men, we are also testifying about the faithfulness of God. Whenever we do what is righteous or express other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law, we are testify about what we believe about the nature of who God is, or in other words, we are believing in Him. Furthermore, I listed many other verses that associate our faith in God with our obedience to Him, so even if were true that Matthew 23:23 weren't referring to faith in God, it would still be true that faith in God is one of the weightier matters of the law in that when we obey it, we are expressing faith in God to rightly guide us.

The Law is things we are to do and not to do. Like honour your father and mother, don't murder etc. Then Jews as you know had all the ceremonial laws and sacrifices, rules around food and clothing etc. Not to be unkind, but there is no such thing as faith being the Law. It's by faith we uphold the Law. We keep the Law through faith.

NIV Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

zoidar · Aug 6, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
One may well be 100% confident and still be wrong. "100% know"? Guess that depends on the use of the word 'know', i.e. whether it means 'it is truth' or what.

But no, that isn't what I was talking about. What I was talking about is further described below.

Not that monergism doesn't also apply to the Christian walk, but my point has mostly to do with the conversion of the heart and with salvation. Salvific Faith is the work of God, not the result of regeneration but the cause of regeneration. It is the Spirit of God within, the Power of God, that regenerates, and not the work of man, no matter how intrinsically we are involved in it. Our involvement in it doesn't increase it, doesn't add to it, doesn't improve what God accomplishes on his own merits.

There is a reason Scripture says "receive the Spirit" as opposed to, "accept the Spirit", as we are receptacles, not freewillers, in the matter of regeneration and salvation.

But my point was to say that it is the Spirit that has the integrity etc to make the change real —our decision-making ability does not. We don't have the strength of willpower, nor so many other things —certainly not the constancy nor the understanding of what is being undertaken, to fulfill this contract. We are carried along by the Spirit. We are not the drivers.

I know we can "know" things that turns out to be wrong. From your perspective we can know we are saved, but not fully know that what we know is true, correct? How do we then get the security of being a child of God?

Is the idea that I know I am a child of God by how my life is changed?

When I listened to a Reformed teacher (I leave out his name), I got the idea that if we live in sin, we are to question if we were really born again. I don't know if I got that correct.

zoidar · Aug 6, 2021

michael21 said:
The same thing happened to me many years ago. It led to 12 years of sin, including heavy gambling and drinking, along with lust being rampant. After those 12 years I returned to a christian community I had previously lived in. The man in charge told me God had given him a great love for me. It was the second time I realised God loves us far more, and is far more forgiving than we may realise and often hear from others.
The other time was when I was a teenager. After the church service I used to sit on a wall outside and smoke a cigarette. The looks I got from some of the parishoners made me feel I would go to hell for smoking, let alone all of my other imperfections. Anyway, a few years later I was prayed with by a well known evangelist who told me much about my life, though they had never met me before and confirmed I was baptised in the Holy Spirit, and yet at that time I still smoked. I learnt something profound that day. God does not demand of you what many of his children often do in order to be blessed by him, or even to be in a saved state.
BTW
As long as you have heartfelt conviction of sin before God and feel bad about it you remain in a saved state

When God "brought me back" I also realized what you said, that God is much more loving and forgiving than we can ever understand. I didn't deserv forgiveness. God forgave me anyway. Often of times God looks more to the intention of our heart, than the things we actually do, I believe.

Gottservant · Aug 7, 2021

I addressed the fact that there is a tension: here (concerning faith and works)

The Liturgist · Aug 7, 2021

fhansen said:
And anyone who tells you that they can sin wantonly without losing their justified state before God would be twice the fool.

I heard a contestant on a reality TV show justifying her lying in that way. In my opinion such an expression indicates such a fundamental lack of faith as to be blasphemous, to the point where it might be indicated that such a person would need to be received by sacramental confirmation/Chrismation, as confession might not be enough, as such a profound state of spiritual delusion carries a risk of comorbidity of demons causing the delusion, not demonic possession per se, but the exorcism that is facilitated through Chrismation or confirmation would be desirable before admitting such a person to the Eucharist.

fhansen · Aug 7, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I heard a contestant on a reality TV show justifying her lying in that way. In my opinion such an expression indicates such a fundamental lack of faith as to be blasphemous, to the point where it might be indicated that such a person would need to be received by sacramental confirmation/Chrismation, as confession might not be enough, as such a profound state of spiritual delusion carries a risk of comorbidity of demons causing the delusion, not demonic possession per se, but the exorcism that is facilitated through Chrismation or confirmation would be desirable before admitting such a person to the Eucharist.

Or, some just hold it to be their theological understanding of the doctrine of Sola Fide.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2021

zoidar said:
The Law is things we are to do and not to do. Like honour your father and mother, don't murder etc. Then Jews as you know had all the ceremonial laws and sacrifices, rules around food and clothing etc. Not to be unkind, but there is no such thing as faith being the Law. It's by faith we uphold the Law. We keep the Law through faith.

NIV Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

I think it is important to not confuse what the apostle Paul meant when he spoke negatively of the Law or works. Paul is condemning two problems.

Problem #1. The keeping of the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal.
(Believers are not under things like circumcision, sabbath days, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, etc.).
(For the Old Law ended when Christ died upon the cross).
(Yes, certain laws have repeated in the New Covenant, but we are under the commands that come from Jesus and His followers).

Problem #2. Law Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace).
Paul is not condemning how we must obey God after we are saved by God’s grace, but he is condemning the wrong extreme of Law Alone Salvationism (or Works Alone Salvationism).
(We learn in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 that there were certain Jews trying to deceive Gentile Christians that they must be circumcised and keep the OT Law of Moses to be saved. But the Jerusalem counsel condemned this idea).

So when Paul says that he upholds the Law by faith, he is not referring to how we must keep the 613 Laws of Moses literally. Paul is referring to how if we keep the New Covenant way, we fulfill the Old law automatically. For example: In Romans 13:8-10, to love your neighbor is to fulfill the Old Law in the way of: Do not covet, do not murder, do not steal, etc.; In other words, one automatically upholds the Old Law by keeping the commands that come from Jesus and His followers and not by trying to keep the Old Laws or ways. For it is physically impossible to obey both covenants. For the Old Covenant was given to Israel and it is superseded by the New Covenant.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2021

zoidar said:
I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?

When Paul says we are not saved by works in Ephesians 2:8-9, he is referring to Initial Salvation and not continued salvation after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul is saying that our Initial and Foundational Salvation is God’s grace through faith in Christ and it is a gift. Gifts are received one time, right? So that means Paul is referring to Initial Salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9.

It’s also important to understand that Paul is referring to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (Without God’s grace) in Ephesians 2:9. For these are the kind of works that a man would boast in himself in doing. But in Ephesians 2:10, Paul is talking about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer after they are saved by God’s grace. This work is cooperative and not forced upon the believer. For how can two walk together unless they be agreed? (Amos 3:3). For we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). In verse 13, we learn that Paul continues to say that it is God who works in you to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). For Ephesians 2:10 refers to the fact that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. These are the works in the Sanctification Process. There is no boasting of one’s work in this kind of work like in Ephesians 2:9 because it is the Lord who works through us when we surrender to Him by faith and trust in His grace. We are not saved ultimately by works because if we mess up by stumbling into sin on rare occasion by some chance, we do not go out and do a good work to undo that sin, but we seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer. For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So Paul is fighting against Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace).

James is fighting against the other opposite wrong extreme, which is Belief Alone-ism or a faith in Christ that has not entered the Sanctification Process. For in Sanctification, a believer works with God in putting away sin, living more holy, and doing good works by the working of God through them. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

So there is no tension between faith and works.
James says our works makes our faith perfect (James 2:22).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2021

zoidar said:
I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?

We are first saved by God’s grace through faith, and we continue in God’s plan of salvation in the Sanctification Process by the Holy Spirit to live a holy life. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). The gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). But the gospel also calls us, too. The gospel call is…. God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

So there is no tension between faith and works.
They are two different aspects of salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2021

zoidar said:
I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?

Believes need to be concerned with two aspects of salvation.

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2021

zoidar said:
I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Protestants seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked a Protestant Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.

Source:

Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).

So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).

So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.

#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have it's service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).

Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.

#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).

In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).

#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).

James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.

So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

The Liturgist · Aug 8, 2021

fhansen said:
Or, some just hold it to be their theological understanding of the doctrine of Sola Fide.

And what I am saying is I would not admit such a person to the Eucharist without chrismating them, because it is such a gross and offensive error against Christian morality that I would suspect them of prelest (a Russian word meaning spiritual delusion I learned in the OCA) and want the exorcizing aspects of the sacred chrism for them because someone that deluded could be at risk of or experiencing demonic harm, whether possession, oppression, or some other activity.

zoidar · Aug 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
When Paul says we are not saved by works in Ephesians 2:8-9, he is referring to Initial Salvation and not continued salvation after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul is saying that our Initial and Foundational Salvation is God’s grace through faith in Christ and it is a gift. Gifts are received one time, right? So that means Paul is referring to Initial Salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9.

It’s also important to understand that Paul is referring to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (Without God’s grace) in Ephesians 2:9. For these are the kind of works that a man would boast in himself in doing. But in Ephesians 2:10, Paul is talking about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer after they are saved by God’s grace. This work is cooperative and not forced upon the believer. For how can two walk together unless they be agreed? (Amos 3:3). For we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). In verse 13, we learn that Paul continues to say that it is God who works in you to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). For Ephesians 2:10 refers to the fact that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. These are the works in the Sanctification Process. There is no boasting of one’s work in this kind of work like in Ephesians 2:9 because it is the Lord who works through us when we surrender to Him by faith and trust in His grace. We are not saved ultimately by works because if we mess up by stumbling into sin on rare occasion by some chance, we do not go out and do a good work to undo that sin, but we seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer. For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So Paul is fighting against Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace).

James is fighting against the other opposite wrong extreme, which is Belief Alone-ism or a faith in Christ that has not entered the Sanctification Process. For in Sanctification, a believer is works with God in putting away sin, living more holy, and doing good works by the working of God through them. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

So there is no tension between faith and works.
James says our works makes our faith perfect (James 2:22).

I like to say something here. Doing good works is really obeying God, living the way God wants us to live. So I see it more like a direction in life, rather than focusing on single acts.

I have a friend that is trying to to do all these good things to somehow be seen by God. I feel that is the approach of someone that doesn't really know who God is. God loves us not because of how we live, but because God is love. But if we want to serve God we are to walk in obedience throughout life, rather than doing this and that to please God.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2021

zoidar said:
I like to say something here. Doing good works is really obeying God, living the way God wants us to live. So I see it more like a direction in life, rather than focusing on single acts.

As for your statement about a direction in life:

Well, Sanctification is progressive and it is not an overnight thing (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 8:13). Sanctification is focusing on improving ourselves and focused on a direction in life towards living more holy, but there needs to be concrete goals set in place or one is only creating a pipe dream that we never actually reach. Perhaps baby steps in the areas of what God wants us to do according to His Word are in order to do God’s will. Most think they have to go to zero to 65 miles per hour in under 4 seconds, and so they just give up and think that living holy is impossible or not really that necessary.

As for your statement about how doing good works (or obeying God) is not about focusing on single acts:

This is a contradictory statement. If we are to do good works, we do need to focus on doing them and take action. Just as if a person needs to do a job at work, their focusing on the right and correct way to do their job will only help them while they work. They work because they have to do so otherwise they will not get paid and will not be able to live correctly. Imagine if you told your boss that you did not do the work at your job because you want to focus on just heading in the right direction instead. I don’t think that would fly too well with him.

Jesus never told His disciples to not to do the work of the preaching the gospel but to just have a direction in life in trying to reach some pipe dream of living holy. Jesus did not say to not help the poor but we are to just have a direction in life in living holy or better in general or in obeying God. God’s instructions are clear in what we need to do. If we are not doing those important things or good works within His Word, we are only concerned with ourselves and our own sin and not God’s will for our lives.

You said:
I have a friend that is trying to to do all these good things to somehow be seen by God. I feel that is the approach of someone that doesn't really know who God is. God loves us not because of how we live, but because God is love. But if we want to serve God we are to walk in obedience throughout life, rather than doing this and that to please God.

Well, there is a proper balance we need to have as believers. It is a proper balance between Grace and Works. Works should never be at the absence of God’s grace in our lives. If you know your friend well, and your friend never expressed (or rejoiced) in being saved by God’s grace by believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and in his seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ at the times he messed up in life on occasion (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1), then we have a problem. It would be the same problem Paul condemned in Ephesians 2:8-9 in trying to be saved by works without God’s grace. So we cannot put the cart before the horse. We build upon the foundation of God’s grace. God’s grace is how we are initially and ultimately saved. Out of curiosity: I attended a few of the services of the church (at different locations) called, “the Church of Christ” here in the US. They do not appear to understand the grace of God and they make salvation all about works. I remember one of the services. They just talked about the Law of Moses and that’s it. They mentioned nothing about Jesus and His grace. This is where I actually spoke up after the preacher was done speaking and rebuked his sermon. Other churches of Christ make initial salvation about the work of water baptism. So I believe they are in serious error. We are first saved by God’s mercy and grace, and if we mess up we have His grace to fall back upon, …. but this cannot be a sin and still be saved type belief, either. We cannot think in our minds that we will sin again tomorrow or next week or next month as a matter of fact because we cannot help ourselves. That would be turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

I believe that if we looked at God’s works in the same way as we do our jobs, I think we would be better off in our relationship with God. But I know that you do not see it that way. But the Scriptures say this.

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1 John 2:3).

What commandments? To love God and to love your neighbor. That is the motivation behind all the things we do for the Lord. It is love. We work by faith in love. If there is no love for God and or love for others in our hearts when we believe in His grace, or by doing good works, we are not changed and what we are doing is nothing. God’s love must hit us deeply whereby we have a godly sorrow over our sin whereby we will not justify sin. Most believers in my view justify sin in some way. They say we do not have to obey God as a part of His grace but somehow they think they will automatically do such things as proof that they have been saved. But have they been changed? Can they testify that what they are doing works? Or is their life about justifying more sin under God’s grace?

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

The person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. That is what this verse plainly says. Also, the verse says that the truth is not in them if they do not keep His commands. What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). So according to 1 John 2:3-4: No obedience = they do not know Jesus who is God. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. So your statement about how we do not need to focus on obedience to know God is false according to 1 John 2:3-4.

You fail to realize that being saved by God’s grace is one aspect of salvation, and Sanctification is another aspect of salvation (that follows after being saved by God’s grace).

We are living in the last days as per 2 Timothy 3:1-9. Many have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. For if we make salvation all about a belief alone in Jesus and that’s it, then obeying God or living holy, or doing good works and or putting away sin out of our lives is completely unnecessary. Proof? Just look at the fruits of this kind of belief.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2021

The contention between grace, and works only exists if we do not understand that there are two aspects of salvation (i.e. We are saved by God’s grace initially, and then we continue in God’s plan of salvation through Sanctification Process and a belief in the truth of God’s Word).

The contention between grace and works only exists if we do not understand that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world according to Titus 2:11-12.

The contention between grace and works only exists if we do not understand that there is a call of the gospel as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. So while we are initially saved by the gospel in believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), the gospel also calls us. This gospel call is…. God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. So we have to continue with the Sanctification of the Spirit in living holy lives and continue to believe the truth of God’s Word (the Holy Bible).

anna ~ grace · Aug 8, 2021

There’s no tension. Luther was just tragically wrong.

The Liturgist · Aug 8, 2021

zoidar said:
I like to say something here. Doing good works is really obeying God, living the way God wants us to live. So I see it more like a direction in life, rather than focusing on single acts.

I have a friend that is trying to to do all these good things to somehow be seen by God. I feel that is the approach of someone that doesn't really know who God is. God loves us not because of how we live, but because God is love. But if we want to serve God we are to walk in obedience throughout life, rather than doing this and that to please God.

Your friend believes in God, and God commands us to put our treasure in Heaven. These good deeds your friend is trying to do help people.

The tension between works and faith

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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