The tension between works and faith

zoidar

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I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?
 

HTacianas

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I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?

Jas 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
 
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Christianity has always been counterculture. I don't mean hippies and free love either.:holy: Agape love.
A person practicing Christianity will stand out after a while because her/his actions are not the norm.
If you don't stand out, you need to ask yourself, why? ...Or perhaps you are constantly surrounded by Christians. :)
 
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Danthemailman

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In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to substantiate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24)
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Dave L

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I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?
The way it works, God brings your dead human spirit to life in the new birth. From that point on, you have a faithful nature and good works of love follow. So it is the New Birth that saves with faith and works as the evidence for it. No faith or works? Probably not born again (saved).
 
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zoidar

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The way it works, God brings your dead human spirit to life in the new birth. From that point on, you have a faithful nature and good works of love follow. So it is the New Birth that saves with faith and works as the evidence for it. No faith or works? Probably not born again (saved).

I was born again 2010, since then I have had periods of living in disobedience and sin, and periods of obedience. What does than mean?
 
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I was born again 2010, since then I have had periods of living in disobedience and sin, and periods of obedience. What does than mean?

Or like a sine wave. Up and down. I 've been there and for me, I was being a fence sitter. refusing to repent of my favorite sins.
 
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Dave G.

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Ephesians 2:8 is all you need to know. But as has been mentioned above, a born again believer who came by faith from the heart will have a changed life. You enter sanctification and that's a slow process where the Holy Spirit works on us to become more Christ like,to look to Jesus, engage in His example. It's truly a life long work. As we do that we become more and more willing though, to do good works and then desiring to do good works. In this life we still walk around in our old bodies and this can cause conflict and even double mindedness. We have scripture to help is navigate that. We have prayer and the Helper, we have the body of Christ too which is why fellowship is important. But in the next life we will be free of that baggage.
 
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zoidar

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What do you mean by this? What is your definition of a radical? As another could interpret it as jihad!

Peace

By radical, I mean taking the words of the sermon on the mount seriously, and live by them.
 
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zoidar

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In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to substantiate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) View attachment 303756

I repost what I wrote to Dave L:

"I was born again 2010, since then I have had periods of living in disobedience and sin, and periods of obedience. What does than mean?"
 
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zoidar

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Or like a sine wave. Up and down. I 've been there and for me, I was being a fence sitter. refusing to repent of my favorite sins.

I guess I was a fence sitter for a while as well, but I have never questioned the truth of the cross.
 
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Bob Crowley

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The middle verse of Dan Schutte's song "Glory and Praise to our God", has the words "Though the power of sin prevails".

In His wisdom He strengthens us
Like gold that's tested in fire
Though the power of sin prevails
Our God is there to save

The Christian life is one long battle with sin. A few, the saints, make a pretty good go of it, but then they might find like Padre Pio that they then get caught up in a literally physical battle with the devil.

DEVIL

The Devil attacked Padre Pio with numerous types of temptations. Padre Augustine also confirmed that the Devil appeared to him under many different forms. "The Devil appeared as young girls that danced naked, as a crucifix, as a young friend of the monks, as the Spiritual Father or as the Provincial Father; as Pope Pius X, a Guardian Angel, as St. Francis and as Our Lady.” The Devil has also appeared in his horrible forms with an army of infernal spirits. There were other times when Padre Pio was approached by the Devil but without any apparition. He was troubled with deafening noises and covered with spittle, etc. Padre Pio succeeded in freeing himself from these attacks of the Devil by invoking the name of Jesus.

You're not in that category.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?
The word you are missing here is love.

We are saved by grace, through our faith. We are judged based on our works (our actions). When we love God with all our hearts we want to obey Him. There should be no tensions if you love God and want to do God's will. The tension comes in when you are not willing to give up your will.

I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.” Psalms 40:8
 
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Dave L

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I was born again 2010, since then I have had periods of living in disobedience and sin, and periods of obedience. What does than mean?
It means you need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. Here's Paul's remedy.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:5) (KJV 1900)

We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.

And we replace it with:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

Knowing Jesus is God and God is love, Jesus is Lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?
Unfortunately the tension you speak of is the result of misunderstanding how Apostles preached about the Kingdom of God. Stylistically they are different however, the message is exactly the same.
Salvation is by faith with the fruits of that salvation realized through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, aka works.
Blessings
 
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"I guess I was a fence sitter for a while as well, but I have never questioned the truth of the cross".

Along with what other posters have written, which is very good, The self is desperately delusional concerning itself. Trust God's word and not your own justifications.

 
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zoidar

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Knowing Jesus is God and God is love, Jesus is Lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.

I agree, but I like to add: When the love of Christ rules our thoughts and action. It's not just love, there are all kinds of love, but the love that is in agreement with Christ.
 
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Dave L

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I agree, but I like to add: When the love of Christ rules our thoughts and action. It's not just love, there are all kinds of love, but the love that is in agreement with Christ.
Thanks for your input. It's the love of (from) Christ we're speaking of.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I have thought about this quite much. What is needed to be saved, faith only, faith and works?

The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

So like the sermon on the mount is a call for us to be obedient, living for Christ, and at the same time we know it's not our works but faith that saves us. Therefore the tension, if we don't have obedience/works we are not to feel secure by our faith. But if we have obedience, we can trust our faith saves us.

I think obedience is to be radical, the sermon on the mount is radical, yet we are also human beings that are imperfect, but we are to strive towards living in uthermost obedience.

Thoughts?
I agree, though I want to add to this, that salvific faith is not also 'works' —it is the work of God, not man— and cannot save us if it is something WE generate. Nevertheless, we do feed it, add to it, and so on as we grow in faith. But the reality of our salvation is what God does, and therefore, absolutely sure —it does not depend on us.
 
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