The tension between works and faith

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Maybe our theological position is less important than that we actually know Christ and live for him. If our theology makes us sit on our bums, then we have a problem, but most (not the very liberal churches) seem to say we have to bear fruit to be saved.

Actually, many churches teach that the believer is saved by grace through faith alone and that works does not save and yet you need to have works of some kind to show you have been saved by God’s grace. This to me is a contradictory belief because if works is necessary to show that one has been saved by God’s grace, then works are required as a part of the salvation process. For in their view, one cannot be saved if there is no fruit. Thus, works is a part of salvation but they want to distance themselves from works playing a part in God’s plan of salvation. Many of these churches also teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level, too. So their version of holy living is not the one according to the Bible. We have to overcome mortal or grievous sin in this life. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). But in most churches today, holiness is optional. Most churches are too busy putting on a show in doing alter calls only instead of also helping believers to follow the Lord. So while we do need to accept the Lord and His grace, that is not the whole point of being a believer. We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). We need to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). Strange how no churches today preach those kinds of verses plainly.
 
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I don't think those in Matthew 7:22-23 did good works for the Lord. I don't even think they knew him. They thought they did, and thought they did all these works for Him, when in reality their works weren't done in His Spirit.

I don't like to use the word "works". It's better to use the words "obedience" and "disobedience", because it's not about single works, but how we live our life.

Then there is Matthew 13:41-42. No mention is made about how Jesus never knew these types.
Let’s read the verse.

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42).​

The angels of Jesus are going to gather out of HIS KINGDOM those who do iniquity (sin).
This is the kingdom of the Son of man (i.e. Jesus Christ).
Those in Christ’s Kingdom who do sin (iniquity) will be cast into the Lake of Fire (i.e. the furnace of fire).
Jesus must do this before He can give the kingdom back to God the Father.

Unfortunately most today teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level all because you have a belief alone in Jesus. They say you are saved by Grace alone by faith alone (a belief alone), but that statement is not true because it would be turning God’s grace into a license for immorality. Even if they try to explain later that believers are to be fruitful and live holy, it may be too late for others to hear that message. Somebody could walk away thinking they can turn God’s grace into a license for immorality and turn out to be the next George Sodini who murdered people and took his own life (thinking he was saved by having a belief alone in Jesus).
 
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Maybe our theological position is less important than that we actually know Christ and live for him. If our theology makes us sit on our bums, then we have a problem, but most (not the very liberal churches) seem to say we have to bear fruit to be saved.

Most churches today teach a double message.
They may appear to be for holy living but they really are not.

For example: MacArthur pretends to teach holy living as a requirement for salvation, but he really does not believe that way according to the Bible. The Lordship Salvation doctrine he popularized in his popular books is a Trojan horse.

How so?

Well, Kenneth Nally committed suicide as per his influence of John MacArthur's ministry and MacArthur said that he was still saved.

Here is a quote from an article:

"At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”

Article Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:


John MacArthur says,

".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ...
(The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"​

John MacArthur confirms how one can sin and still be saved here in this video:

 
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zoidar

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Right, I agree we need to know the Lord and allow His good work to work through us. But how do we have an assurance that we know the Lord? 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance that we know the Lord by keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 says the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. But why did Jesus cast them out? Was it because they did good works? No, not exactly. While it is true that all good works is done by the Lord (John 15:5), Jesus did not say depart from me ye that do good works without me. For in John 14:23 Jesus said, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. So the reason why Jesus said to depart from me was for the reason of what He actually said. Jesus said, “…depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23). Iniquity is sin. So they were believers who justified sin while under God’s grace. So while these believers did good works in His name, they also worked sin or iniquity (Which is why they were condemned).

Now, while it is possible they never actually knew the Lord ever (by the fact they were pretending to accept Jesus or by fact that they accepted another Jesus), there is also another possibility according to Ezekiel 3:20.

“Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.” (Ezekiel 3:20).

Not sure you understood this verse, but it is saying that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity (sin), it says all his previous righteousness shall not be remembered. This means that there are no more good deeds for the Lord to remember for a believer if he turns back to their sin. Seeing the Lord associates with those who do righteousness (1 John 2:3) (John 14:23) (1 John 2:29) (1 John 3:7), it only makes sense that if a believer turns back in doing righteousness and commits sin, there is no more righteousness to remember for the Lord and thus He does not know them because God associates or knows a person by their keeping His commandments; For we can have an assurance that we know the Lord by keeping His commands (See again: 1 John 2:3). So in Matthew 7:23, Jesus can say to the believer in whom He might have known once as saying He never knew them because there is no righteousness to remember in their life anymore on account of their sin.

We see in Revelation 2-3 a report card on various churches and we know that select churches were told to repent. One church in particular was told to repent because they lost their first love. They were told to repent and do the first works (Revelation 2:1-7). What first works? To love God and love others (i.e. to love with one’s heart purely when worshiping God, and to love purely when one preaches the gospel, preaches the Word, helps a brother or sister in need financially, or in helping the poor). For if we give our whole bodies to be burned and we have not love, it profits us nothing (1 Corinthians 13:3).

Can you lose your first love and be saved? I don’t think so.
For if we are not loving the Lord we are accursed according to the apostle Paul (See: 1 Corinthians 16:22).



Works is one part or aspect of the package of our obedience to God. There is putting away sin, and denying ourselves and following the Lord in all things. I like the words “Sanctification by the Spirit” (2 Thessalonians 2:13) because it really gets to the heart of the matter of what needs to happen for a believer after they are saved by God’s grace. God is the One who helps us to live that holy life over time.

But we should not say that we do not like the word “works” because the Bible itself teaches positively about the word “works.”

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

Do you not like James 2:24 because it uses the word “works” positively in relation to our salvation?
Granted, most in the Belief Alone camp do not believe James 2:24 and they attempt to change this verse to apply to being justified before men only and not before God. But that does not fit the context of what James is talking about.

“My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” (James 2:1).

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:21-22).

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

I think it's good you have two possible understandings of Matthew 7:22-23. I think if a believer is living in unrighteousness, his gifts of doing miracles in the Holy Spirit are removed. I know it's hard to show that scriptually, I still believe it.

It's not that I don't like that the Bible uses the word "works". It's when people use it, they already have a formed idea what it means. So if I say "works" they may think I mean something I don't. Therefore I rather use "obedience/disobedience" since it's more clear in meaning, and it's grasping the whole concept of what a Christian life ought to be.

1 John 2:3 is about being faithful to Jesus words and teachings. But I think you mean that.
 
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zoidar

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Actually, many churches teach that the believer is saved by grace through faith alone and that works does not save and yet you need to have works of some kind to show you have been saved by God’s grace. This to me is a contradictory belief because if works is necessary to show that one has been saved by God’s grace, then works are required as a part of the salvation process. For in their view, one cannot be saved if there is no fruit. Thus, works is a part of salvation but they want to distance themselves from works playing a part in God’s plan of salvation. Many of these churches also teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level, too. So their version of holy living is not the one according to the Bible. We have to overcome mortal or grievous sin in this life. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). But in most churches today, holiness is optional. Most churches are too busy putting on a show in doing alter calls only instead of also helping believers to follow the Lord. So while we do need to accept the Lord and His grace, that is not the whole point of being a believer. We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). We need to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). Strange how no churches today preach those kinds of verses plainly.

The problem with this is a person may do all kinds of good deeds for Jesus and still not have been born again. So twisting one's arm to be more obedient may not be fruitful. It's the relationship with Jesus that is salvative, that we live with him in obedience and love.
 
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zoidar

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Then there is Matthew 13:41-42. No mention is made about how Jesus never knew these types.
Let’s read the verse.

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42).​

The angels of Jesus are going to gather out of HIS KINGDOM those who do iniquity (sin).
This is the kingdom of the Son of man (i.e. Jesus Christ).
Those in Christ’s Kingdom who do sin (iniquity) will be cast into the Lake of Fire (i.e. the furnace of fire).
Jesus must do this before He can give the kingdom back to God the Father.

Unfortunately most today teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level all because you have a belief alone in Jesus. They say you are saved by Grace alone by faith alone (a belief alone), but that statement is not true because it would be turning God’s grace into a license for immorality. Even if they try to explain later that believers are to be fruitful and live holy, it may be too late for others to hear that message. Somebody could walk away thinking they can turn God’s grace into a license for immorality and turn out to be the next George Sodini who murdered people and took his own life (thinking he was saved by having a belief alone in Jesus).

It's like it says, the teacher has a bigger responsibilty.

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
— James 3:1
 
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zoidar

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Most churches today teach a double message.
They may appear to be for holy living but they really are not.

For example: MacArthur pretends to teach holy living as a requirement for salvation, but he really does not believe that way according to the Bible. The Lordship Salvation doctrine he popularized in his popular books is a Trojan horse.

How so?

Well, Kenneth Nally committed suicide as per his influence of John MacArthur's ministry and MacArthur said that he was still saved.

Here is a quote from an article:

"At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”

Article Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:


John MacArthur says,

".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ...
(The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"​

John MacArthur confirms how one can sin and still be saved here in this video:


I doubt MacArthur is correct on this one, but 1 John 5:16 is hard to understand. Is it about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, maybe? I mean when is it of no use to pray for someone?
 
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I'm not sure the tension is between faith and works, so much as it is between grace and indebtedness. The problem with a works-based salvation is that it assumes that God owes us salvation if we only do the right things, that we can somehow put Him in our debt. There's a parable in Luke that explains it well:

“Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’? 8 Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”

So there is an obligation to work, but in doing so we aren't contributing anything as we are simply doing what is required of us. If we have faith, we will work because faith works. But we are nothing more than beggars before God, and so our salvation rests purely in His grace.
 
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Bro.T

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Paul said in (Gal. 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. This didn’t start in the New Testament, Paul was only quoting scripture, and the just has always lived by their faith. (Hab. 2:4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. The just shall live by his belief (faith), and how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your obedience to his word.

In (1Tim. 6:17-19) (v.17) Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; (v.18) That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; (v.19) Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. Riches and gains that is the doctrine of today, they are preaching the gospel of prosperity and not the gospel of the coming of the kingdom of God. But the Lord said to charge them that are rich in this world that they be not high-minded, but that they should be rich in good works that they may lay hold on eternal life.
 
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